LDS Alright then, Mormons, let's have it out

He is the way said:

You said: "What is the planet Kolob? From Genesis to Revelation no such Planet is mentioned?" First Kolob is a star, not a planet. Is Saturn mentioned in the Bible? Nope so that means it does not exist? Yes I do know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. We have the Book of Mormon to prove it. It was written in 65 working days when Joseph Smith was 23 years old.

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Is Kolob a star?

The Book of Abraham is unclear about Kolob being a star or a planet,[2] and Mormon writings have taken positions on either side of this issue. One part of the Book of Abraham states that Abraham "saw the stars ... and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; ... and the name of the great one is Kolob."[5] Thus, Kolob is referred to as a "star". However, the book defines the word Kokaubeam (a transliteration of the Hebrew "כּוֹכָבִים" [c.f., Gen. 15:5]) as meaning "all the great lights, which were in the firmament of heaven".[13] This would appear to include planets as among the "stars",[14] and the Book of Abraham refers to Earth as a star.[15] In addition, the Book of Abraham text appears to classify Kolob as among a hierarchy of "planets".[16] On the other hand, in the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar paper, Kolob is classified as one of twelve "fixed stars", in distinction with fifteen "moving planets".[17] The term "fixed stars" generally refers to the background of celestial objects that do not appear to move relative to each other in the night sky, generally including all stars other than the sun, nebulae and other star-like objects. Though "fixed", such objects were proven to have proper motion by Edmund Halley in 1718. Apparently referring to proper motion, Smith said that Kolob moves "swifter than the rest of the twelve fixed stars".[18] Also, the Book of Abraham refers to "fixed planets",[19] thereby including planets in the set of celestial objects that may be "fixed". He also refers to the sun as a "governing planet",[20] which further complicates the terminology. So, from the variety of terminology Smith used in referencing Kolob and other astronomical objects, it is unclear whether he understood Kolob to be a planet or a star.

Writers in the Latter Day Saint movement have taken positions on both sides of the issue of whether Kolob is a star or a planet. Brigham Young, second president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), spoke of Kolob as a planet.[21] Likewise, LDS Church apostles John Taylor,[22] Orson Pratt (a mathematician with an interest in astronomy),[23] Orson F. Whitney,[24] and Alvin R. Dyer[25] referred to Kolob as a planet. Other Mormon theologians have also viewed Kolob as a planet.[26] Several other Mormon writers have referred to Kolob as a star, including B. H. Roberts[27] and LDS Church president David O. McKay.[28]

Randy777 said:

Is this true?
Latter-day Saints also believe that there are other gods and goddesses outside the Godhead, such as a Heavenly Mother who is the wife of God the Father

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Yes, but for us there is but one God, the Father:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 8:5 - 6)

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Randy777 said:

Is Kolob a star?

The Book of Abraham is unclear about Kolob being a star or a planet,[2] and Mormon writings have taken positions on either side of this issue. One part of the Book of Abraham states that Abraham "saw the stars ... and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; ... and the name of the great one is Kolob."[5] Thus, Kolob is referred to as a "star". However, the book defines the word Kokaubeam (a transliteration of the Hebrew "כּוֹכָבִים" [c.f., Gen. 15:5]) as meaning "all the great lights, which were in the firmament of heaven".[13] This would appear to include planets as among the "stars",[14] and the Book of Abraham refers to Earth as a star.[15] In addition, the Book of Abraham text appears to classify Kolob as among a hierarchy of "planets".[16] On the other hand, in the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar paper, Kolob is classified as one of twelve "fixed stars", in distinction with fifteen "moving planets".[17] The term "fixed stars" generally refers to the background of celestial objects that do not appear to move relative to each other in the night sky, generally including all stars other than the sun, nebulae and other star-like objects. Though "fixed", such objects were proven to have proper motion by Edmund Halley in 1718. Apparently referring to proper motion, Smith said that Kolob moves "swifter than the rest of the twelve fixed stars".[18] Also, the Book of Abraham refers to "fixed planets",[19] thereby including planets in the set of celestial objects that may be "fixed". He also refers to the sun as a "governing planet",[20] which further complicates the terminology. So, from the variety of terminology Smith used in referencing Kolob and other astronomical objects, it is unclear whether he understood Kolob to be a planet or a star.

Writers in the Latter Day Saint movement have taken positions on both sides of the issue of whether Kolob is a star or a planet. Brigham Young, second president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), spoke of Kolob as a planet.[21] Likewise, LDS Church apostles John Taylor,[22] Orson Pratt (a mathematician with an interest in astronomy),[23] Orson F. Whitney,[24] and Alvin R. Dyer[25] referred to Kolob as a planet. Other Mormon theologians have also viewed Kolob as a planet.[26] Several other Mormon writers have referred to Kolob as a star, including B. H. Roberts[27] and LDS Church president David O. McKay.[28]

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The way I see it Kolob is a star.

He is the way said:

The way I see it Kolob is a star.

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That's ok as I don't believe that testimony anyway.

He is the way said:

So why did they put it on the churches website if they are trying to hide it?

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They put a few things---not the things that we have found out on here with you guys. Please, don't pretend anymore with us that you do not know what we are talking about---you taught us your true believes. They are difficult, at best, to dig through and it takes a lot of time to go through the writings of JS and BY and those others after them. I know one thing -- Mormonism is not of God. It is not truth you seek, but verification of their outlandish ideas.

mmksparbud said:

They put a few things---not the things that we have found out on here with you guys. Please, don't pretend anymore with us that you do not know what we are talking about---you taught us your true believes. They are difficult, at best, to dig through and it takes a lot of time to go through the writings of JS and BY and those others after them. I know one thing -- Mormonism is not of God. It is not truth you seek, but verification of their outlandish ideas.

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I wonder if the Jews think about the New Testament in the same way you think about the Book of Mormon. It seems to me that there are so many people that don't want any more of God's word.

He is the way said:

I wonder if the Jews think about the New Testament in the same way you think about the Book of Mormon. It seems to me that there are so many people that don't want any more of God's word.

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Of course they do!! They do not want to read it at all. However, those who do, and there are many of them (we have many former Jews) do see the Savior and accept. The family usually casts them out of the family--however---some of those have also gone on to convert. I had a pastor that was Jewish and his family disowned him for several years---then, out of curiosity they read the bible and they converted and the whole family was reunited. He is far from the only one. But it is the word of God, those who seek for truth will find it. It is the only way to know about Him, no other book can compare to it.

TasteForTruth said:

LOL, I fight a different battle. So, pass.

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Yes, this is not a good OP for me either.

Randy777 said:

Care to explain this?
Kolob is a star or planet described in the Book of Abraham, a sacred text of the Latter Day Saint movement. The Book of Abraham is traditionally held by several Latter Day Saint denominations as having been translated from an Egyptian papyrus scroll by Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement.

What specifically did Joseph smith find wrong with all the churches that he left that faith?

What did he restore?

I myself consider Mormons outside the faith.

I have believed and loved Jesus as far back as my memory goes. I have the Spirit of Christ in me. I know Jesus and He knows me. I came to Him by faith.

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Mistake sorry

Randy777 said:

Care to explain this?
Kolob is a star or planet described in the Book of Abraham, a sacred text of the Latter Day Saint movement. The Book of Abraham is traditionally held by several Latter Day Saint denominations as having been translated from an Egyptian papyrus scroll by Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement.

What specifically did Joseph smith find wrong with all the churches that he left that faith?

What did he restore?

I myself consider Mormons outside the faith.

I have believed and loved Jesus as far back as my memory goes. I have the Spirit of Christ in me. I know Jesus and He knows me. I came to Him by faith.

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Randy777

JS did not leave a faith. He wondered why the different churches were all teaching different doctrines for the same Christianity. He got confused enough that he decided to visit occasionally as time permitted. He did not join any denomination, but chose to spend most of his time studying the bible by himself.

One day as he was reading, he read James 1:5 and it caused him to go into a wooded area near their farm and verbally ask God which church was the true church.

When he came out of that wooded area, he knew at least 5 things:
1) God and his Son, Jesus Christ were real beings, they really existed.
2) God and his Son, Jesus Christ were 2 separate and distinct Personages.
3) Jesus told him that his sins were forgiven.
4) Jesus told him not to join any church, for these reasons:
a) They drew near to me with their lips but their hearts were far from me.
b) They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but
they denied the power thereof.
5) Jesus told him that if he remained steadfast in doing wha t Jesus told him, he would be an
instrument in His hands to bring about a mighty work in these latter days in restoring to
the earth, the true Church of Jesus Christ.

So JS did not leave a faith, he had not belonged to any denomination. He certainly did not leave Christianity because it was God and Jesus Christ that was instructing him. So JS never went outside the faith.

What did he restore:
1) He knew right away that he did not have the authority to baptize people, so he and another man by the name of Oliver Cowdry (OC) went to a secluded area and knelt down to pray about this problem because people were wanting to join with the new church.
At that time, a resurrected John the Baptist came to them and gave them the authority to baptize. The same authority which he had in the time of Christ. And so now, JS and OC could legally baptize people into the Church of Jesus Christ.
2) Months later, the same JS and OC was in the deep woods, and they knelt down to pray again and at this time Peter, James, and John, apostles of Jesus Christ visited them and they gave to them the same keys of the kingdom of heaven that Jesus had given Peter, recorded in the book of Matthew in the bible. (Matthew 16:18-19)
Now JS an OC had the power that whatever they bound on earth would be bound in heaven, and whatever they loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven. This great power is also known as the Melchizedek Priesthood.

So far 2 major functions were restored to the earth. The power to baptize (Aaronic Priesthood) and the binding and loosing powers of the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Melchizedek Priesthood)

With these necessary powers, JS was able to move forward with the organization of the Church. Which included calling and ordaining 12 apostles, just like Jesus had in the first century church. Bishops, deacons, priests, teachers, elders, seventy could all be callled and ordained to grow the church as the original church grew in the time of Peter and the apostles.

This why Jesus said "they deny the power theireof". Churches today do not know and in fact deny anything about the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthoods or the power to bind and loose with the keys of the kingdom of God.

These were very important powers and positions to be restored in the new Church of Jesus Christ. All for the glorifying of God and his Son Jesus and for the preparation of the world for the second coming of Jesus Christ.

More if you wish.

Peter1000 said:

Randy777

JS did not leave a faith. He wondered why the different churches were all teaching different doctrines for the same Christianity. He got confused enough that he decided to visit occasionally as time permitted. He did not join any denomination, but chose to spend most of his time studying the bible by himself.

One day as he was reading, he read James 1:5 and it caused him to go into a wooded area near their farm and verbally ask God which church was the true church.

When he came out of that wooded area, he knew at least 5 things:
1) God and his Son, Jesus Christ were real beings, they really existed.
2) God and his Son, Jesus Christ were 2 separate and distinct Personages.
3) Jesus told him that his sins were forgiven.
4) Jesus told him not to join any church, for these reasons:
a) They drew near to me with their lips but their hearts were far from me.
b) They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but
they denied the power thereof.
5) Jesus told him that if he remained steadfast in doing wha t Jesus told him, he would be an
instrument in His hands to bring about a mighty work in these latter days in restoring to
the earth, the true Church of Jesus Christ.

So JS did not leave a faith, he had not belonged to any denomination. He certainly did not leave Christianity because it was God and Jesus Christ that was instructing him. So JS never went outside the faith.

What did he restore:
1) He knew right away that he did not have the authority to baptize people, so he and another man by the name of Oliver Cowdry (OC) went to a secluded area and knelt down to pray about this problem because people were wanting to join with the new church.
At that time, a resurrected John the Baptist came to them and gave them the authority to baptize. The same authority which he had in the time of Christ. And so now, JS and OC could legally baptize people into the Church of Jesus Christ.
2) Months later, the same JS and OC was in the deep woods, and they knelt down to pray again and at this time Peter, James, and John, apostles of Jesus Christ visited them and they gave to them the same keys of the kingdom of heaven that Jesus had given Peter, recorded in the book of Matthew in the bible. (Matthew 16:18-19)
Now JS an OC had the power that whatever they bound on earth would be bound in heaven, and whatever they loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven. This great power is also known as the Melchizedek Priesthood.

So far 2 major functions were restored to the earth. The power to baptize (Aaronic Priesthood) and the binding and loosing powers of the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Melchizedek Priesthood)

With these necessary powers, JS was able to move forward with the organization of the Church. Which included calling and ordaining 12 apostles, just like Jesus had in the first century church. Bishops, deacons, priests, teachers, elders, seventy could all be callled and ordained to grow the church as the original church grew in the time of Peter and the apostles.

These were very important powers and positions to be restored in the new Church of Jesus Christ. All for the glorifying of God and his Son Jesus and for the preparation of the world for the second coming of Jesus Christ.

More if you wish.

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And the angel---Moroni?

mmksparbud said:

Of course they do!! They do not want to read it at all. However, those who do, and there are many of them (we have many former Jews) do see the Savior and accept. The family usually casts them out of the family--however---some of those have also gone on to convert. I had a pastor that was Jewish and his family disowned him for several years---then, out of curiosity they read the bible and they converted and the whole family was reunited. He is far from the only one. But it is the word of God, those who seek for truth will find it. It is the only way to know about Him, no other book can compare to it.

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It is interesting that both the Bible and the Book of Mormon were written by the Jews.

He is the way said:

It is interesting that both the Bible and the Book of Mormon were written by the Jews.

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JS was Jewish?

mmksparbud said:

JS was Jewish?

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Joseph Smith did not write the Book of Mormon.

mmksparbud said:

And the angel---Moroni?

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Moroni was the one responsible for the plates, and so to him it fell the task of introducing Joseph Smith to them.

In fact, it's a recurring thing in the early history of the church that when the time came for Joseph to receive something the person who bore most responsibility was the one who returned to get the job done, either by themselves or with Jesus in their company.

dzheremi said:

Neither did some fake, non-existent 'Hebrew' Indians from Jerusalem.

I guess it came out of nowhere, then...

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That is correct because they are NOT fake or non-existent.

dzheremi said:

There is no evidence of them ever existing, despite the copious amounts of evidence of the people who actually did exist in the Americas during the time period when the BOM events supposedly took place.

Reminds me of this, except this is actually trying a bit harder:

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Now I'm going to end up singing that tune over and over!!

He is the way said:

I have been over many of the scriptures that are ignored. Here is one of them:

(New Testament | Matthew 5:16)

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

How many are doing this?

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Most every person I know who is a Christian lives a life that is a light to those around them. Men see, as they did in the book of Acts, the love Christians have for one another as one example. This then draws them, as we know from testimony, and after being drawn they are convicted and moved by the Holy Spirit to server Christ themselves.