Submission and obedience.

bèlla

❤️
Supporter
Jan 16, 2019
20,482
17,644
USA
✟933,652.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
What some call submission is really subservience.

If you want control
If you require obedience
If you demand respect
If you want to bend her will

If your ego is sated by headship you’re lying to yourself. If authority makes you feel powerful you’re in denial. If you’re low in the world and submission offers the leadership you never had, you’re pursuing this for the wrong reasons.

It’s important to acknowledge your why and how you benefit. Especially in our culture. If it appeals to your flesh in any way you can’t ignore that. Because it’s not about you. If you need your partner to yield you’ve exceeded His intention.

True submission must be compelled. You can’t point to a text and expect someone to follow you. You must inspire that within her by the strength of your character and vision. If she finds you worthy she’ll hand you the reins. You can’t get it by force or coercion.

~Bella
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

a-lily-of-peace

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2020
521
310
Australia
✟28,113.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What some call submission is really subservience.

If you want control
If you require obedience
If you demand respect
If you want to bend her will

If your ego is sated by headship you’re lying to yourself. If authority makes you feel powerful you’re in denial. If you’re low in the world and submission offers the leadership you never had, you’re pursuing this for the wrong reasons.

It’s important to acknowledge your why and how you benefit. Especially in our culture. If it appeals to your flesh in any way you can’t ignore that. Because it’s not about you. If you need your partner to yield you’ve exceeded His intention.

True submission must be compelled. You can’t point to a text and expect someone follow you. You must inspire that within her by the strength of your character and vision. If she finds you worthy she’ll hand you the reins. You can’t get it by force or coercion.

~Bella
With respect I don’t think it’s about finding the husband worthy because of his character and vision but about internalising the idea of being a part of the living body of Christ and understanding that everything is for his glory.

The husband is worthy because he is a beloved child of God and (s)he who would be great in the Kingdom would wash the feet of another and be the servant of all.

I truly love and respect my husband for who he is but that is so exponentially amplified when I see him as child of God like my heart literally swells at the thought and it’s overwhelming.
 
Last edited:
  • Friendly
Reactions: Swan7
Upvote 0

shineyourlight

Well-Known Member
Mar 6, 2020
1,412
1,885
34
New York
✟63,612.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I might be the one who gets the stones thrown at me. But, alas, we shall see :) I also never liked that Scripture, but alas, there it is.

Ephesians 5:15-33 was written to encourage UNITY in marriage.
  • “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. … Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her” (Ephesians 5:22 and 25, ESV).
  • “[Submit] to one another out of reverence for Christ” (Ephesians 5:21, ESV).

I have seen spousal abuse with this Scripture. Men take advantage of this to make it an excuse to abuse their wives. This doesn't negate husbands who are abused, either. But, we're talking about this scripture so I'm going to talk about this Scripture about wives ;)

When a husband truly submits to God, serving his wife with a servant's heart without a "me" mindset and nurturing her just as God would nurture her God-given talents and supporting her, a woman can confidently submit to him. Leaning on him, trusting him, lifting him up.

When wives practice BIBLICAL submission, it means we can confidently follow our husband's lead. Ephesians 5:23 CLEARLY states that man does have that responsibility to LEAD. But, that is ONLY as a leader that his wife submits to him - not as a tyrant, not as a bully, not as her superior. It is an equal submission (Ephesians 5:21).

Women and men have different needs for respect and love, because we are inherently different. Women need to feel loved by their husbands and husbands need to feel respected. (Ephesians 5:33)

Remember, submission is NOT master (husband) to servant (wife). It is a lover TO the beloved. Take note of the Trinity (don't believe in it? Fine. But, focus on the Scripture at hand). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all equal in the sense of them being fully God and they all submit to one another. Likewise, we must submit to each other.

Jesus has given up His own life for the Bride of the Church. So, “For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior” (Ephesians 5:23, ESV).

Back then, when this Scripture was written, women were in a different situation. But, the Bible is very accepting of females. Take Jesus talking to the Samaritan woman. That was a HUGE no-no during that time. People of the Jewish faith were not allowed to talk to Samaritans and Jesus went COMPLETELY against it. Even the Samaritan woman was shocked.

Submit to one another. It is a beautiful thing <3
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Junia
Upvote 0

icxn

Bραδύγλωσσος αἰπόλος μαθητεύων κνίζειν συκάμινα
Dec 13, 2004
3,092
885
✟210,855.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
...If we want to make real progress in the Christian life, we should be seeking grace to know God's will, to do God's will and in a manner that is submissive, not sullen and resentful. To obey is indeed better than sacrifice.
If there's one example that drives that point home, it is the life of Saint Dositheus.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

bèlla

❤️
Supporter
Jan 16, 2019
20,482
17,644
USA
✟933,652.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
I truly love and respect my husband for who he is

People come in many guises. Not all are loving, kind or respectful. Submitting to someone who treats you well is easier than one who doesn’t.

I don’t like platitudes. I prefer the naked truth. Seeing scripture through real situations is more edifying than lofty words. I take the concept and look at it from different angles. That’s how you cultivate tolerance and grace.

Your response is largely influenced by the portion I highlighted. Not that you don’t believe the rest. Reaching that point is easier with that in tow. When we address this subject (or any for that matter), we can’t fixate on the ideal. Because it doesn’t exist. We have to see the principle in light of our imperfections.

Most single women have no interest in head of household relationships. That includes Christians. But many men prefer that arrangement. I’ve been in the trenches and mentored surrendered women. I know what it looks like and I’ve lived it.

To resolve the issue you must understand the impediment and the contributing factors supporting its absence. Why won’t she follow him? That’s what I responded to in the portion you quoted. I know the answer.

~Bella
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Junia
Upvote 0

a-lily-of-peace

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2020
521
310
Australia
✟28,113.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It was Christ who opened my eyes to love and respect my husband for who he is though.

I know I’m speaking from a position of privilege and blessing, but I also do have the awareness that the household, the job, the electricity being connected, these are by God’s grace and they will all be burned away in the end, and that human being, that life partner, that soul who I am sharing this household with, is who Christ died for. Not the bricks and wood.

And with this, “we can’t fixate on the ideal. Because it doesn’t exist” I understand what you were trying to say and yet in everything else I believe you would agree to fixate on Christ, because he is the ideal, and he quite certainly exists, and he will wipe away every tear.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

bèlla

❤️
Supporter
Jan 16, 2019
20,482
17,644
USA
✟933,652.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
I didn’t forget Christ at all. But I didn’t deny the privilege either. I’m compelled to look at things a little differently. To move outside my reality and see other perspectives. I have to be relatable.

I understand what you’re saying. But I don’t talk that way. I meet the person where they are and address their circumstances with those principles in mind. That would fall on deaf ears for an unbeliever and sound hollow to someone who doesn’t have the privileges and blessings you’ve mentioned.

I address both. The natural and spiritual. If I’m speaking to someone who doesn’t desire a head of household relationship I can’t tell her what you said. It doesn’t broach the heart of the matter. The thing that’s holding her back. You have to deal with that first.

The issue that prevents you from obeying God is found within. A natural cause. That’s where I start. We progress to the spirit as healing and changes take root. :)

~Bella
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Junia
Upvote 0

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Why should submission and obedience be controversial?
We submit unto God and trust God when we submit unto others. The fear is submitting unto others, not God. Others can be in error. The greater our trust in God, the greater our trust in others will be. Conversely, the less we trust others, it means neither do we trust God.

When we trust God fully, we know others will err, however, we also know that God works all things for good for those who love him and are called according to his purpose. That means, if we are pursuing the purposes of God for our lives and that included trusting someone else who erred, God will still turn it around for the better.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Do you know of Joyce Meyer? She is one of my favourite teachers. She is strong on submission, she submits to her husband in the godly way. If submission is preached correctly (and it's certainly not limited to marriage relationships) it is liberating. God has ordained order and structure. It's not bondage and slavery.
Just wondering, so why does Joyce Meyer as a preacher/pastor not submit to God's word where it says "But I do not permit a woman to teach, nor to use authority over a man, but to be in quietness." 1 Tim 2:12
 
Upvote 0

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,327
14,493
Vancouver
Visit site
✟304,048.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
And in context of the below, you can understand why she might need reassurance that God wouldn’t let her be punished for the failure of another?

So the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the congregation, saying, ‘Get away from the tents of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.’ ”
Then Moses rose and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him. And he spoke to the congregation, saying, “Depart now from the tents of these wicked men! Touch nothing of theirs, lest you be consumed in all their sins.” So they got away from around the tents of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the door of their tents, with their wives, their sons, and their little children.

And Moses said: “By this you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works, for I have not done them of my own will. If these men die naturally like all men, or if they are visited by the common fate of all men, then the Lord has not sent me. But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.”

Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly. Then all Israel who were around them fled at their cry, for they said, “Lest the earth swallow us up also!”
(Numbers 16:23-34, NKJV)

(and because yes the reassurance of God’s justice really is there and I believe that posting the below means more when acknowledging the above)

And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

(1 Corinthians 7:13-14, NKJV)

That passage about Korah etc was actually really challenging for me because there’s no clear explanation that the wives and children were also rebellious.

That’s where the resolution of faith comes in, that if they truly are innocent, they will be given just judgement in the next life, and if they truly were punished, it’s because God could discern their hearts even if that isn’t spelled out.

I’m blessed that God gave me a good husband but even so, there is a secondary level of faith. I have to be entirely confident in my relationship with God, which obviously I’m an active part of, but then also be entirely confident in his relationship with God to trust him to lead, which is legitimate faith in things I am unable to feel, only see the fruits of.

It’s a dynamic that you are both entirely aware of yet entirely unable to participate in directly beyond prayers on behalf of another and also continuing to live the resurrected life, that the light can be seen through you. That is how truth goes.

And that’s something to really celebrate in that it shows how amazingly God works in the silent and unseen places.

Perfection is developed there.
It sounds like a muzzled horse learning how to eat with a bit in it’s mouth.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You don’t know her or how she lives behind closed doors. People often express surprise when someone they know commits a crime. “He seemed so nice” is a popular response. Appearances aren’t facts.

~Bella
That's not fair, why would you assume the worst?
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
True submission must be compelled. You can’t point to a text and expect someone to follow you. You must inspire that within her by the strength of your character and vision. If she finds you worthy she’ll hand you the reins. You can’t get it by force or coercion.
I agree with this part of your post.
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,110
19,006
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,476.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Do you know of Joyce Meyer? She is one of my favourite teachers. She is strong on submission, she submits to her husband in the godly way. If submission is preached correctly (and it's certainly not limited to marriage relationships) it is liberating. God has ordained order and structure. It's not bondage and slavery.

I know of Joyce Meyer. What she teaches on this is irrelevant to me, though.

Are you claiming that a wife should not submit to the authority of her husband?

I am claiming that it shouldn't be a relationship which gives the husband control over the wife. Submission should be both entirely voluntary, and completely mutual.

Therefore unbiblical teaching is the cure for domestic abuse? Wow. That's pretty twisted.
As if the Bible is the cause of domestic violence.

The Bible misused certainly does lie at the heart of some domestic violence. So we have to see the fruit, and realise that misusing the Bible in those ways is indeed very twisted and completely to be avoided.

It is part of being the head of the family, part of being the one who should make the decision, to be responsible for success or failure.

That's your interpretation of what "head" means, though. Scripture says nothing of the sort.

Women and men have different needs for respect and love, because we are inherently different. Women need to feel loved by their husbands and husbands need to feel respected.

I see this claim often made, but I've never seen anything substantial to back it. No woman is going to thrive if she's "loved" but disrespected, and no man is going to thrive if he's "respected" but not loved. Real love comes with respect for the other.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all equal in the sense of them being fully God. Meanwhile, there's still a hierarchy in that relationship between all three.

No! There is not hierarchy in the Trinity. The Athanasian Creed explicitly rejects that. The three persons are completely co-equal.
 
Upvote 0

bèlla

❤️
Supporter
Jan 16, 2019
20,482
17,644
USA
✟933,652.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
That's not fair, why would you assume the worst?

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. —1 John 4:1

I didn't assume anything. I stated a fact. If you believe she's telling the truth that's fine. But it isn't errant for someone to acknowledge the absence of personal relationship with a public figure. Nor are we required to validate statements from strangers.

~Bella
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. —1 John 4:1

I didn't assume anything. I stated a fact. If you believe she's telling the truth that's fine. But it isn't errant for someone to acknowledge the absence of personal relationship with a public figure. Nor are we required to validate statements from strangers.

~Bella
Should we trust what you are saying?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bèlla

❤️
Supporter
Jan 16, 2019
20,482
17,644
USA
✟933,652.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
Should we trust what you are saying?

That's up to you. I'm not trying to influence your opinions. I do that elsewhere. The upside is compensation. But there's no reason to do the same here. What am I getting out of it? :)

~Bella
 
Upvote 0

Emsmom1

Active Member
Nov 6, 2019
244
211
Los Angeles
✟41,441.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
I'm a little confused by this. Is a woman to submit to everything? What if her husband wants sushi for dinner and she wants Mexican? What if the husband wants sex nightly and she prefers once a week? What if the husband thinks the occasional smack is warranted? Etc...Given we are all sinful creatures (male and female), I wonder how often these verses are used to justify abusive situations?
 
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,268
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,030.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Just wondering, so why does Joyce Meyer as a preacher/pastor not submit to God's word where it says "But I do not permit a woman to teach, nor to use authority over a man, but to be in quietness." 1 Tim 2:12
Her teaching is fundamentally aimed at women. Godly principles are gender neutral much of the time, so men who choose to listen can be blessed as well. She does not run a church. She is not in authority over anyone apart from those who work for her.

I'll upset a few people, but I am no fan of female pastors or elders for exactly the reason you've quoted. I'm even less impressed with the idea that women are pastors by marriage. Joyce Meyer is biblically sound, practically orientated and has helped an enormous number of people. As an aside, in my opinion, if the church was doing its job, Joyce Meyer's ministry would not have been necessary.
 
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,268
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,030.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
I'm a little confused by this. Is a woman to submit to everything? What if her husband wants sushi for dinner and she wants Mexican? What if the husband wants sex nightly and she prefers once a week? What if the husband thinks the occasional smack is warranted? Etc...Given we are all sinful creatures (male and female), I wonder how often these verses are used to justify abusive situations?
You can use the Bible to justify stoning adulterers. I don't know any Christian who thinks that is acceptable now. Why anyone would imagine that the principle of submission permits physical violence is beyond my comprehension. Submission is a principle in the life of the church, not just in families. Does anyone think that its OK to beat up a church member who disagrees with an elder? In love, of course....

The fact that a principle is abused does not make the principle wrong. It means that Christians need to be taught what is acceptable and what is not. That sentence makes me cringe to think that it needs saying. Lord Jesus said that the way we treat the brethren is the way that we treat Him. Men who abuse their wives are on dangerous ground. I have to wonder about the reality of their Christianity.

Submission should be the last resort when a decision has to be made. Submission does not mean inferior. In the military, it's a matter of life and death at times. We were told that we obeyed commands because the authority had been delegated to the officer. We did not have to like the officer or the command. Under the most extreme and limited circumstances, you could disobey. A woman does not have to submit to violence.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,362
7,742
Canada
✟721,286.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Why should submission and obedience be controversial? The answer is simple.

It is indeed very simple.

When people post about submission and obedience, they make it sound like being obedient and in submission to them. So it does kind of rub people the wrong way when people put themselves in God's place.
 
Upvote 0