Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,

Studyman

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Strawman - I never said that sin did not exist before the Law. I merely accept Paul at his word - the sin that is innate to mankind is empowered, aroused, and strengthened by the Law.

What is Paul saying in these particular texts?:

But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [h]coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead

for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me

Please address these texts, and show how they are not implying that sin is empowered and or enabled by the Law of Moses.

It is not wise to take a couple of verses from the Bible, and ignore everything else that is written. How is it possible to know about, and repent of sin that exists in me, If God does not first give me His Law?

The Law doesn't deceive, sin does. The Law makes known the deceit, that is hidden until God's Law "revives" it.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

You are implying, through Paul, that God's Law, which defines sin, somehow makes the Sin that exists in secret, more powerful, more sinful, more deadly than it was before it was known.

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

I have been here before. You are convinced God's Law has a "dark side". I have presented, as others have presented, Paul's own words which contradict your assertion.

I don't believe Paul thought of God's Laws as having a "dark side". Given he certainly could have said that in his letters if he truly believed such a thing. But he didn't. Instead he talked about how Holy, Just, Righteous, and Good God's Laws are, how he delights in them, and how he "Serves them" in his mind.

Why would he and Jesus "serve them" if their function is to "Empower and enable sin"? Why would God command me to follow a Path that empowers "death" in me? Why would Jesus tell me to "keep the Commandments" if their designed purpose was to "empower sin" in me? I think you have been misinformed about Paul's intent here.

An unknown sin can not be repented of. Is that not the true reason for the Law? To show me of the existing sin that deceived me?

It seems we are at an impasse. You are convinced, it seems, that God's Laws have a dark side, while I am convinced by the overwhelming evidence from the God of the Bible, the Prophets, Jesus, and His Apostles, including Paul, that the God of the Bible is perfect, Just, Holy, Good and Righteous. And that HIS Word's and Laws are also perfect, Just, Holy, Good and Righteous. I guess some day we shall know.

Thank you so much for the discussion. I appreciate it very much.
 
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expos4ever

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With respect, it seems you diverted from answering my question. I asked a simple question, did God's Law exist in Paul's time?

The Biblical Truth is "YES". Paul may not have known them at some point in his life, but they were there, and if they were there, then sin was there as well. The idea that sin didn't exist in Paul before the Law came is simply untrue.

Shall I not also consider the rest of the Holy scriptures?

According to the Holy scriptures, God gave Moses HIS Laws, commandments, Statutes and Judgments, and God gave Abraham HIS Laws, commandments, Statutes, and Judgments.
Strawman - I never denied any of this.
 
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expos4ever

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You are assuming that God's Laws, Statutes, Commandments and Judgments HE gave to Abraham was different than HIS Laws HE gave to Abraham's Children through Moses.
Now we are at least getting somewhere. But you are clearly mistaken, if I understand you correctly. There are many, many things in the Law of Moses that were never, as far as scripture tells us, disclosed to Abraham - all the stuff about festivals, all the food laws, and many other things.

No offense, but I politely suggest you may not be aware of the many, many detailed elements of the Law of Moses - things like not mixing certain cloths and how to conduct sacrifices, were never made known before Moses. Unless you assume that God directly implanted in the brains of Abraham, etc. That seems awfully contrived.
 
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expos4ever

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Well going back to Romans 7 lets look at it this way. If you tell a child not to do something, all of a sudden the child is always tempted to do it. The law you just gave the child makes the desire to 'sin' stronger.
Yes! Exactly! All I am doing is taking Paul at his words - in Romans 7, he clearly argues that the Law of Moses revs up the desire to sin in the Jew. As you can see, some here are denying Paul's rather plain words.

Because out sinful nature gravitates to whatever sin is and the more we learn what sin is, the more we will be slaves to sin but the spirit frees us from this not by removing the law, but by giving us spiritual strength to do according to God's will and not being bondage to our own fleshy desires.
I agree with everything you write here except the bit about "not removing the law". I believe that the New Testament teaches that the Law of Moses has indeed been "retired" - we no longer need it, with the gift of the indwelling spirit.

But with respect to what we are battling over in this thread, you and I appear to be in violent agreement.
 
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expos4ever

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It is not wise to take a couple of verses from the Bible, and ignore everything else that is written.
You are evading, obviously. Paul did not have a stroke as he was writing the texts I cited - he must have meant something by them. All I am asking you to do is to explain in your own words what Paul is saying in these texts:

But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [h]coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead

for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me


I think we both know these texts are a real challenge for you since, unless you violently deform the meaning of words lie "taking opportunity", "produced", and "deceived", one is forced to accept that Paul believes the Law of Moses amplifies, energizes, and empowers the sin nature.

It is indeed strange, but this is what Paul is clearly saying here. And there is other stuff in Romans and Corinthians that appears to say the same thing.
 
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expos4ever

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The Law doesn't deceive, sin does. The Law makes known the deceit, that is hidden until God's Law "revives" it.
Again, let Paul speak:

For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

This should end the debate (although I suspect you will keep on going) - the Law, yes, arouses, sin. You are, effectively, changing this text into:

For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were EXPOSED OR REVEALED by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death

Why do you think you make this kind of substitution?
 
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PROPHECYKID

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Yes! Exactly! All I am doing is taking Paul at his words - in Romans 7, he clearly argues that the Law of Moses revs up the desire to sin in the Jew. As you can see, some here are denying Paul's rather plain words.

No, not in the Jew. In anyone. Any law that points out sin, will produce temptation and will be a stumbling block to anybody who is walking after the flesh, regardless of their race. Remember also, Paul is speaking primarily to gentiles in the book of Romans. In the Old Testament when non-jews joined the people of Israel they had to follow all the laws as well so its was never strictly for people of a particular race or else the non-jews who joined themselves would not have to keep it or they would have been forbidden to joining them.


I agree with everything you write here except the bit about "not removing the law". I believe that the New Testament teaches that the Law of Moses has indeed been "retired" - we no longer need it, with the gift of the indwelling spirit.

But with respect to what we are battling over in this thread, you and I appear to be in violent agreement.

The parts of the law of Moses that are no longer relevant because of the death of Jesus Christ are blotted out. Let me explain it this way. In Genesis 6 we learn that there were clean and unclean animals. We were not told how they were identified, but Noah obviously knew. In the law of Moses, you find how to identify between clean and unclean animals. When Jesus died on the cross, were all unclean animals just made clean? Did Jesus die so we can now eat pork which is one of the worse foods we could eat for our health? That as opposed to offering a lamb and confessing your sin above the head of the lamb to a priest. Now that is clearly no more because Jesus is the high priest and Jesus is the lamb. So once Jesus died, this is no more. So its not the indwelling of the spirit that 'removes' the law because that wouldn't make much sense. The law is spiritual and those who are in the spirit mind the things of the spirit which is why the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God.
 
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Studyman

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Here’s the study I did in this passage which i also agree has been grossly misunderstood.

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2:14-17

Perhaps this text more then any other has been used to refute those who observe the seventh day of the week (saturday) as the Sabbath. It is believe by the great majority of Christiandom that Paul is telling us here that the law was nailed to the cross. Is this really what Paul was trying to convey? Let's take a closer look.

(Col 2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

(Col 2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

If you look at the "context" what is "blotted out" is not the Law of God, but our sins. The subject being discussed here is the "forgiveness of our trespasses." vs 13.

In verse 14 he explains how he accomplished that. By "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that were against us." There is no mention in Scripture anywhere of God "blotting out his Law." Here are several examples of what IS blotted out which is consistent with this passage in Col 2.
  • Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Ps 51:1
  • Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Ps 51:9
  • I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Isa 43:25
  • I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. Isa 44:22
  • Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. Acts 3:19
The record of our transgressions, our sins and trespasses (these handwriting of ordinances), is most definitely "contrary to us and against us". Look what it says here in Isaiah which is confirmation of this:

"For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify 'against us': for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them." Isa 59:12

These are the exact three things mentioned above that were "blotted out" that are "against us" - Our sins, transgressions and iniquities.

Now what does it mean when it says "and took it out of the way"? The word "way" if you look it up in the Greek, means "middle". Gk 33:19 In other words there was something in the way, something that stood in the middle, a wall separating us from God. Based upon what we have learned thus far, it was our sins that were "in the way", in the middle forming a wall between us and God.

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. Isaiah 59:2

Thank you so much for your heart felt reply. You make some very good points. My disagreement with you here is what was standing in the way of men turning to the Same God before Jesus came? Yes, people sinned, but didn't they have Shepherds who God placed over them to show them His Way?

Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. (EX. 32)

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

Isn't this the way it is supposed to be? Isn't this who Jesus was? Why did Jesus need to come if there were already Priests teaching the Truth?

What happened?

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

The Shepherds departed from God's ways.

Jer. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Jer. 23:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

So what did God do?

Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, (Corrupt Shepherds ) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


This is exactly what sin does. It separates us from one another and from God, creating a barrier (i.e. a wall) between us. This was the sorrowful lesson Adam and Eve learned in the Garden.

Now with that in mind, let's look at a similar passage in Eph 2:11-17

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Who was it that taught that Gentiles were "without God, and without hope in the world". Can you provide any scriptures from the Bible in which God relegates anyone "without God and without hope in the world"? No, such a description of God doesn't exist in HIS Word. The "Circumcision", also called the Jews or Pharisees, taught this. But God did not. In fact, one of the greatest examples of true Faith was by a Gentile named Rahab.

As Jesus Himself said about the Circumcision;

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God as they were appointed to do)


13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Who is the "both?" On one side you have the Gentiles that were far off and in the flesh, without Christ. On the other side you have the Israel of Godl, who DO have Christ.

Jesus set the record straight. He taught what the Levite Priests were supposed to teach. Remember, there was only one way to hear about God, and that was the Levitical Priesthood. When they departed out of the way, they led God's people out of the way.

Remember what Jesus said; "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

What stood between these lost, and the gentiles, was the "commandments of men" that had led them astray.

Paul is speaking here of himself... "between us", that is between the gentiles and himself along with all the others of the commonwealth of Israel that accepted the Messiah. Christ comes and wipes the slate clean of all their sins, transgressions and iniquities. They are grafted in with the believing Jews making peace between not only the Jews and the Gentiles but more importantly with God. Christ accomplished this by removing from them all there sins through the offering of himself on the Cross.

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

"The Law of Commandments" that were the enmity was the doctrines and traditions being promoted by the only God of Abraham preaching people on the planet, that led them astray. First God sent them the Prophets, which they killed. Then HE sent them His own Son, who they also killed.

You are correct in that what was "abolished" was not God's Laws. But I hope you might consider that it was the Laws and Philosophies of religious Men that led people astray, and it was their " law of commandments contained in ordinances", which had been taught for centuries, that Jesus triumphed over. It was these "teachers of the Law" who "taught for doctrines the commandments of men" that Jesus Spoiled. He became the "Restorer of Paths to walk in" just as Isaiah prophesied.

Thank you so much for your study. I will stop here, even though you had some excellent scriptures and we are close in belief. I used to believe as you, but what nagged on me was the Biblical fact that we are all brought under sin. Not to destroy us, but to show us the need to repentance and change, to save us. So this death wasn't "against us", but for us. What is against us, are the Philosophies and religious traditions of men. That is our greatest danger.

Matt. 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Jesus could have warned of "Sin", Atheist's, Islam, Heathens, harlots, etc. But HE didn't.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

He warned of religious men coming in His Name, just as the Pharisees came in God's Name.

With His Love,

SM.
 
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expos4ever

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No, not in the Jew. In anyone.
The Law of Moses only applied to Jews. But, I think we agree on the basic principle that is relevant to this discussion - the Law of Moses did "arouse", not merely expose, sin.

In the Old Testament when non-jews joined the people of Israel they had to follow all the laws as well so its was never strictly for people of a particular race or else the non-jews who joined themselves would not have to keep it or they would have been forbidden to joining them.
It is true that gentiles who were integrated into the Israelite community had to follow the Law. But, the Law of Moses otherwise clearly excluded all other Gentiles in the world, i.e. the overwhelming majority of human beings. This is basic Old Testament stuff. Here is an example from Leviticus:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything [p]that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.

Do you really believe that the Law of Moses was for all humanity? I would be stunned if any Biblical scholar would agree with that.
 
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expos4ever

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The parts of the law of Moses that are no longer relevant because of the death of Jesus Christ are blotted out. Let me explain it this way. In Genesis 6 we learn that there were clean and unclean animals. We were not told how they were identified, but Noah obviously knew. In the law of Moses, you find how to identify between clean and unclean animals. When Jesus died on the cross, were all unclean animals just made clean?
I see where you are coming from but I don't believe the kosher food laws have anything to do with hygiene. Consider the text from Leviticus I provided in a recent post - the function of those rules was really to distinguish the Jew from the Gentile.
 
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Studyman

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Again, let Paul speak:

For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

This should end the debate (although I suspect you will keep on going) - the Law, yes, arouses, sin. You are, effectively, changing this text into:

For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were EXPOSED OR REVEALED by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death

Why do you think you make this kind of substitution?

It is my custom to consider all of the Holy scriptures concerning doctrines. You may want to separate this sentence, and then separate one word from the sentence, and use it to alter other scripture if you like. Many religious men do this to promote their religious belief that God's 610 Laws are a burden with a Dark Side.

I have provided some evidence that this wind of doctrine, although popular, is nonetheless untrue if we believe all that is written.

My point is based on the rest of Paul's teaching that Paul was already dead before the Law came and sin revived. He just didn't know it because "sin" had deceived him. To be deceived is to believe something that isn't true. Believing he was "alive once without the Law" is the deception.

He said he was "alive once without the law", but when the law came, He found out that he was really dead. I posted his own words where he teaches that with or without the Law, the wages of sin is death. You ignore this verse because it doesn't help you promote your own religious belief.

I understand that Paul is saying the Law "aroused sin" that already existed in Him but was unknown to Paul because sin had deceived him.

But that he said; "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Thus insuring that sin would no longer deceive him, and bring him death because he is no longer "without the Law". Now that he knows what it means to covet, it can not deceive him any longer, and he will work to "go and sin no more" as the Bible instructs from the beginning to the end.

You can't accept this, that is fine.

Thanks for the discussion.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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The Law of Moses only applied to Jews. But, I think we agree on the basic principle that is relevant to this discussion - the Law of Moses did "arouse", not merely expose, sin.

The Law of Moses could not apply only to the Jews if non-jews who joined them had to keep it too. Why do you keep repeating that and still admit that non-jews also had to keep it. Those 2 things cannot be true.

It is true that gentiles who were integrated into the Israelite community had to follow the Law. But, the Law of Moses otherwise clearly excluded all other Gentiles in the world, i.e. the overwhelming majority of human beings. This is basic Old Testament stuff. Here is an example from Leviticus:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything [p]that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.

Do you really believe that the Law of Moses was for all humanity? I would be stunned if any Biblical scholar would agree with that.

Whoever wanted to be a part of God's people in those times had to keep all of God's laws. True or False.

Do you believe that God did not want to save people outside of the Jewish Race?

Why was Israel called out? What was the purpose of God having a chosen people?
 
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Robert Williams

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Thank you so much for your heart felt reply. You make some very good points. My disagreement with you here is what was standing in the way of men turning to the Same God before Jesus came? Yes, people sinned, but didn't they have Shepherds who God placed over them to show them His Way?

Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. (EX. 32)

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

Isn't this the way it is supposed to be? Isn't this who Jesus was? Why did Jesus need to come if there were already Priests teaching the Truth?

What happened?

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

The Shepherds departed from God's ways.

Jer. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Jer. 23:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

So what did God do?

Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, (Corrupt Shepherds ) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:




Who was it that taught that Gentiles were "without God, and without hope in the world". Can you provide any scriptures from the Bible in which God relegates anyone "without God and without hope in the world"? No, such a description of God doesn't exist in HIS Word. The "Circumcision", also called the Jews or Pharisees, taught this. But God did not. In fact, one of the greatest examples of true Faith was by a Gentile named Rahab.

As Jesus Himself said about the Circumcision;

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God as they were appointed to do)




Jesus set the record straight. He taught what the Levite Priests were supposed to teach. Remember, there was only one way to hear about God, and that was the Levitical Priesthood. When they departed out of the way, they led God's people out of the way.

Remember what Jesus said; "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

What stood between these lost, and the gentiles, was the "commandments of men" that had led them astray.



"The Law of Commandments" that were the enmity was the doctrines and traditions being promoted by the only God of Abraham preaching people on the planet, that led them astray. First God sent them the Prophets, which they killed. Then HE sent them His own Son, who they also killed.

You are correct in that what was "abolished" was not God's Laws. But I hope you might consider that it was the Laws and Philosophies of religious Men that led people astray, and it was their " law of commandments contained in ordinances", which had been taught for centuries, that Jesus triumphed over. It was these "teachers of the Law" who "taught for doctrines the commandments of men" that Jesus Spoiled. He became the "Restorer of Paths to walk in" just as Isaiah prophesied.

Thank you so much for your study. I will stop here, even though you had some excellent scriptures and we are close in belief. I used to believe as you, but what nagged on me was the Biblical fact that we are all brought under sin. Not to destroy us, but to show us the need to repentance and change, to save us. So this death wasn't "against us", but for us. What is against us, are the Philosophies and religious traditions of men. That is our greatest danger.

Matt. 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Jesus could have warned of "Sin", Atheist's, Islam, Heathens, harlots, etc. But HE didn't.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

He warned of religious men coming in His Name, just as the Pharisees came in God's Name.

With His Love,

SM.


You also make some good evaluations, and yes we are pretty close in our understanding. I certainly agree that the religious leaders and false shepherds definitely stood in the way of new believers coming to faith, however i think we must still consider the context of this verse. You wrote:

“What is against us, are the Philosophies and religious traditions of men.”

However, our scripture states that those things that stood “in the way” were “nailed to the cross”. The opinions of men with their “vain philosophies and traditions of men” were not nailed to the cross or done away with. To the contrary, they are as strong as ever and continue with us to this day!

In the following verse (15) we see the results of the “blotting out” of these ordinances that were against us, which is Jesus “having spoiled principalities and powers...”

  • Referring to the Devil, Jesus said:

“And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and SPOIL his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will SPOIL his house.” Matthew 12:27-29

Going back to our text in Colossians 2:15, the result of “nailing the handwriting of ordinances that was against us” is that “principalities and powers” were “spoiled”.

Therefore, i maintain that it was the record of our sins, which stood as a record against us that Jesus nailed to the cross and “blotted out”, thereby completely disarming the great Accuser of the brethren!

As David wrote after his great sin with Bathsheba had been exposed and stood “against” him:

“Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions... Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.” Psalms 51:1,9
 
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Studyman

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So there is a verse in the bible that corresponds with the idea that the handwritings of ordinances were "against us". I dont know if you have seen it but here it is.

Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Excellent verse and perfect for this thread.

Duet. 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,

25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,

26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?

So God knew the Levites, who were chosen to administer God's Laws, and provide for the atonement of His People would corrupt themselves and lead God's People Astray. So God placed the "Book of the Law" as a witness against them.

And God was right as the scriptures clearly show.

Jer. 50:My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. (Ex. 32)

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

Just as God said they would.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

So what did God do?

Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, (shepherds who led the flock astray) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

So here come the New High Priest in the New Covenant.

Matt. 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And why were they lost?

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

It was these "handwriting of ordinances" that led God's People astray. It was these that were nailed to the Cross.

Just would like to point out that the 10 commandments were placed inside the ark while the book of the law was placed on the side of the ark.

But anyway, I guess we have to try to figure out what it means that the book of the law was a witness against them and if this is the same idea expressed in Colossians 2:14.

Now according to verse 16 and 17 it points out things that would have been included in the handwriting of ordinances and that these are a shadow of things to come. So lets go to Hebrews.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

In Hebrews 9 speaking of the first covenant it says this:

Perfect, another perfect spot to go to.

Heb. 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

Who was this Covenant given to? Was it not Levi (Aaron and his sons) on Israel's behalf? In fact, it was unlawful for anyone other than a Levite to partake in this Priesthood.

Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Ex. 29:4 And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.

Lev. 2:1 And when any will offer a meat offering unto the LORD, his offering shall be of fine flour; and he shall pour oil upon it, and put frankincense thereon:

2 And he shall bring it to Aaron's sons the priests: and he shall take thereout his handful of the flour thereof, and of the oil thereof, with all the frankincense thereof; and the priest shall burn the memorial of it upon the altar, to be an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD:

3 And the remnant of the meat offering shall be Aaron's and his sons': it is a thing most holy of the offerings of the LORD made by fire.

Ex. 29:38 Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually. 39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even: 40 And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering.

"Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation"

So we have Hebrews defining the "shadow" Hebrews 7-10 is speaking to. The Levitical Priesthood.

Hebrews 9:10 and Colossians 2:16 seem to be talking about exactly the same thing.

Heb. 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

This is clearly speaking to the duties and Laws placed specifically on Aaron and his sons (Levites) The Israelite's were forbidden to partake of any of these duties. They could not even touch the Arc of the Covenant without being killed. Levi was separated from the rest of the Tribes of Israel for the purpose of "administration of God's Laws, and for providing for the atonement of the sins of the people, until the time of reformation.

Col. 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

These are the "Feasts of the Lord" given to Israel, not a Priesthood duty.

Lev. 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, (Not just Aaron and his sons (Levites) and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

There is a stark difference between the Feast's of the Lord which lay out the Salvation plan of God, and the duties of the Levitical Priesthood Heb. 7-10 specifically address. I will address the rest of your great reply in another post.
 
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Studyman

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="PROPHECYKID, post: 75016321, member: 204456"

Hebrews 10:1 and Colossians 2:17 seem to be correlating.


Heb. 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


This is speaking of the Levitical Priesthood "Deeds or Works" of the Law for the atonement of sins specifically given to Levites only.


Col. 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


The Holy Feast's of the Christ, creator of all things, is a shadow of the Salvation which is to come. It starts with Passover. This is the very beginning of God's Salvation plan for His People. It is shown that the Christ, the Lamb of God, shed His Blood for them while they were yet in sin (Egypt). Then Feast of Unleavened Bread which Paul said "Let us keep". These are part of the Law that the Levites/Pharisees Corrupted with their own religious doctrines and traditions which corrupted the Salvation plan, and led God's People astray .


Hebrews and Colossians are speaking about two different things all together.


So the handwriting of ordinances to me, seems to be referring to the ordinances, sacrifices and ceremonies that were contained in the law of Moses under the old covenant, as opposed to man-made laws that might have been added by the pharisees later on, because they did add a bunch of additional laws that were just a burden on the people.


I used to think that as well. But the Priesthood was not designed to be "Against us", rather, for us. It was "ADDED" to God's Laws because of transgression. It was most Holy. But Levi corrupted the Covenant given him on Israels behalf, on Mt. Sinai.


Remember, there was no other place on the entire planet to go to hear God's Words than the Levite Priests. They alone had access to God's Teaching. This is why Jesus said to listen to them when they read the Book of the Law, just don't follow their doctrines and traditions of men.


But then there is verse 15 which I honestly never paid much attention to before. Now verse 15 is an example why it makes sense to read the entire chapter. After reading the entire chapter again with the emphasis to understand verse 15 I understand the point you are making because its actually stated in the previous verses. I will post a few of the previous verses in the ERV (Easy to Read Version) which I rarely use but I use it for situations like these.


Col 2:6 You accepted Christ Jesus as Lord, so continue to live following him.

Col 2:7 You must depend on Christ only, drawing life and strength from him. Just as you were taught the truth, continue to grow stronger in your understanding of it. And never stop giving thanks to God.

Col 2:8 Be sure you are not led away by the teaching of those who have nothing worth saying and only plan to deceive you. That teaching is not from Christ. It is only human tradition and comes from the powers that influence this world.

Col 2:9 I say this because all of God lives in Christ fully, even in his life on earth.

Col 2:10 And because you belong to Christ you are complete, having everything you need. Christ is ruler over every other power and authority.

Col 2:11 In Christ you had a different kind of circumcision, one that was not done by human hands. That is, you were made free from the power of your sinful self. That is the kind of circumcision Christ does.


That is not a bad translation. The mainstream preachers of that time promoted animal sacrifice, physical circumcision, but had omitted the more important parts of God's Laws, like the Law of Mercy, and the Law of Faith. I like the part about the Circumcision. Paul understood the true meaning of the word intended by the God of the Bible in the first place.


Lev. 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;


41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:


42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.


And again;


Duet. 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.


17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:


This is what the Priests should have been preaching all along. And Zecharias did, and Simeon knew, and Anna, and the wise men. These were all faithful to the Word of God, and they knew Jesus when HE came. But the Levite Priests and Pharisees and the religious leaders of the Jews did not, because they taught for doctrines the Commandments of Men.


So the powers in verse 8 seem to be what is referred in verse 15. The question is, can the "handwriting or ordinances" be a reference to both of these things? I am beginning to think so. It might be inclusive of both the ceremonial ordinances that took place under the old covenant and also the additional laws that were added.


8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


What was hard for me to come to terms with, 25 years ago, was the separation God placed between the Levite and the Israelite's. If a man can accept that God gave Levi a Covenant on Israels behalf.


Ex. 27:In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.


Then he can understand the difference between the Levitical Priesthood, and the "Feast's of the Christ" given to the Children of Israel. He will also more clearly see that the entire contents of Heb. 7-10 is speaking to the Levitical Priesthood which was the Old Covenant God gave Levi on Israel's behalf. Of course, before this could happen, there had to be, by necessity, a change also in the Priesthood Law because according to the Covenant God made with him, only Levites could become a High Priest.


This separation can be seen because Jesus clearly continued to observe the Feasts of the Lord, but did not sprinkle one drop of animal blood, yet He still forgave sins. And the Disciples also, continued in the Feast's of the Lord, but no longer partook in the shedding of animal blood for atonement of sins according to the Priesthood Law.


Also, Abraham knew of the sacrifice of the Lamb.


Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.


and again;


Gen. 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.


But we know Abraham didn't have the Levitical Priesthood laws of atonement as Levi was not born until years later. Abraham was justified, his sins atoned for, just not by the "Works of the Law" of atonement given to Levi. Abraham was justified "Apart from the Law".


I so much appreciate your addition here, they are thought provoking and heart felt. I hope you see how I came to the conclusions I have come to. And I welcome any additions or thoughts you may have. These discussions are good for men to have, in my view.[/QUOTE]
 
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Robert Williams

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I understand how you come to your conclusions and i guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this point. For me it speaks most clearly of our sins being blotted out and nailed to the cross. This in my opinion is the greater affect of Christ’s death on the cross, our sins and transgressions against the holy law of God that stands as a record against all who transgresses against it.
 
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It is my custom to consider all of the Holy scriptures concerning doctrines. You may want to separate this sentence, and then separate one word from the sentence, and use it to alter other scripture if you like.
What an outrageous distortion. I am the one who is respecting scripture here; you are the one who refuses to address inspired scriptural texts.

I have provided some evidence that this wind of doctrine, although popular, is nonetheless untrue if we believe all that is written.
Where have you done this? Which post? Please be specific.

My point is based on the rest of Paul's teaching that Paul was already dead before the Law came and sin revived.
What? The Law of Moses had been around for centuries before Paul was even born! In any event, nothing I have posted denies that Paul, or any other person, is "dead" in their sins before coming to faith.

He said he was "alive once without the law", but when the law came, He found out that he was really dead.
Again, you are hiding things. Since sunlight is the best disinfectant, here is what Paul really writes:

On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except [e]through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was [k]to result in life, proved [l]to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

You conveniently ignore verse 11. While there is a lot of other stuff going on in this passage, verse 11 clearly states that sin "killed" Paul through the enabling power of the Law!
 
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Studyman

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You also make some good evaluations, and yes we are pretty close in our understanding. I certainly agree that the religious leaders and false shepherds definitely stood in the way of new believers coming to faith, however i think we must still consider the context of this verse. You wrote:

“What is against us, are the Philosophies and religious traditions of men.”

However, our scripture states that those things that stood “in the way” were “nailed to the cross”. The opinions of men with their “vain philosophies and traditions of men” were not nailed to the cross or done away with. To the contrary, they are as strong as ever and continue with us to this day!

In the following verse (15) we see the results of the “blotting out” of these ordinances that were against us, which is Jesus “having spoiled principalities and powers...”

  • Referring to the Devil, Jesus said:
I thought about this as well. But then I know that the "handwriting of ordinances" that were against them would be different that those which are against us.

For instance, the Philosophy of Gameleil, which corrupted Paul, would be different than those deceivers of today. But the implication is the same. Jesus was not influenced by any other voice but God's. And the Principalities and Powers of that day called Him a devil, and accused Him of heresy "Because" HE followed God's Word. I think HE exposed all man made religious tradition, and every other voice of religious men.

I understand how you come to this thought. But satan didn't show up in a red suit and a forked tail. It came as a preacher of righteousness, and manifest itself in a great religion with Laws and Commandments which had led people astray for centuries. So in a sense, Jesus did spoil satan which is certainly against us. But it was the teaching of the Jews who led people astray from God.

You do make a compelling point though.

“And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and SPOIL his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will SPOIL his house.” Matthew 12:27-29

Going back to our text in Colossians 2:15, the result of “nailing the handwriting of ordinances that was against us” is that “principalities and powers” were “spoiled”.

Therefore, i maintain that it was the record of our sins, which stood as a record against us that Jesus nailed to the cross and “blotted out”, thereby completely disarming the great Accuser of the brethren!

As David wrote after his great sin with Bathsheba had been exposed and stood “against” him:

“Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions... Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.” Psalms 51:1,9

This is not a hill I am prepared to die on. The sins of God's People were certainly blotted out. I just think that unless Jesus had exposed the teaching of the religion of the land as false, and made a show of them openly, we would not understand how satan deceives, that is, through the doctrines and traditions of religious men.

And David paid a huge price for His Sin. And what did God say about it?

13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

To this day I hear religious men using David's sin as an excuse to reject God's Commandments. I find that absolutely fascinating.

Great reply. Good food for thought. Thank you for it.
 
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The Law of Moses could not apply only to the Jews if non-jews who joined them had to keep it too. Why do you keep repeating that and still admit that non-jews also had to keep it. Those 2 things cannot be true.
You are simply mistaken, sorry. The fact that those Gentiles who were incorporated into the Israelite community had to follow the Law certainly does not mean that the Law applies universally. If I move to the United States, for example, I am then required to follow their laws. But their laws do not therefore apply elsewhere in the world.

Again, I challenge you to find one Biblical scholar who would agree that the Law of Moses applied to all humanity. No serious expert in the Old Testament believes this, I am quite sure. Did you read the text I posted from Leviticus - the food laws were given to set the Jew apart from the rest of the world. How could the Law do that if it applied to all humanity?
 
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