THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

a-lily-of-peace · May 22, 2020

FineLinen said:
"The grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

"MY FLESH, WHICH I WILL GIVE FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD." ( John 6:51)

It is the world for whose life Christ gives His flesh.

Can He give in vain?

His gifts are "without repentance".

It must be finally effective, though they may be resisted.

"THEN SPOKE JESUS * * I AM THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD." (John 8:12)

The world, (the whole ungodly world), is that of which Christ is the Light as well as the Life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

(John 3:16-21, NKJV)

FineLinen · May 22, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

(John 3:16-21, NKJV)

Dear Lily: Mankind does indeed love darkness. That darkness is evident (very) on Christian sites in individuals who have a form of godliness, but alas, deny the power of the Risen One.

God loves the world, He always has, He always will. Believing into Him requires an intervention of Heavenly proportions. For the malista (especially) of His love & grace, the intervention has begun, for the masses of sin & despair their day is coming.

The glorious message of John 3 for us & them is sure. God did NOT send His Son into the world for condemnation but to one end...

That the world should be saved in & thru Him.

Will our God prevail?

ClementofA · May 22, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
(Hebrews 9:27-28, NKJV)

"Mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:13b)

Judgement, not hopelessness. Judgement, not no more chances for salvation. Judgement, not Love Omnipotent's love has expired like a carton of milk. Judgement, not the hand of the Almighty is impotent to save.

"Anyone who knows anything about the Greek of the New Testament (and elsewhere) knows that extraneous articles are used all the time, and that very frequently it’s not at all meaningful. (The converse holds true, too; and it’s the reason why you don’t see John 1:1c translated as “The Word was a god.”)"

"Then in the second part of the verse they *add* a definite article, ‘the’ in front of the word ‘judgement’. Why is this done? It isn’t hard to imagine that it is done to scare people into submission by convincing them it must be done before they die and it is too late."

"Looking at the most popular English translations, only KJV has “the judgment,” whereas NRSV, NIV, ESV, NASB, NET et al. don’t."

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ClementofA · May 22, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

(John 3:16-21, NKJV)

More literal versions say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, non universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

ClementofA · May 22, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
(John 3:35-36, NKJV)

The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

Journal of Analytic Theology

Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36

How can the wrath of God abide (remain) on someone if it isn't already there? And the denial ("shall not see life") is not time limited. It is that the individual will not see life. Period.

Clearly it is "time limited". All were at one time "unbelievers" with the "wrath of God" on them. Yet many of those unbelievers became believers. These believers no longer have the "wrath of God" on them. There - was - a "time limit" to how long the "wrath of God" was on them. And likewise there was a "time limit" till those who "shall not see life" did in fact "see life".

Even apostates who had once believed are being sought by God for salvation & being corrected for their own good:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · May 22, 2020

ClementofA said:
The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

Journal of Analytic Theology

Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Clearly it is "time limited". All were at one time "unbelievers" with the "wrath of God" on them. Yet many of those unbelievers became believers. These believers no longer have the "wrath of God" on them. There - was - a "time limit" to how long the "wrath of God" was on them. And likewise there was a "time limit" till those who "shall not see life" did in fact "see life".

Even apostates who had once believed are being sought by God for salvation & being corrected for their own good:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

It's disingenuous and lazy to just spam copy and pasted prewritten Walls of Text from Microsoft Word folders that no one is going to or even has the patience to completely read through to muddy up and derail threads.

.

mmksparbud · May 22, 2020

LOL!! I see there is still not one single incidence of any passage in God's word that describes anyone coming out of the lake of fire. Not one verse where anyne changes their mind after death. These still hold as the final "mysterious" act of God.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

This will be the end of Stan and his followers.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

The final act of God is to utterly destroy sin.
Nah 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
Nah 1:4 He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth.
Nah 1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
Nah 1:6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
Nah 1:7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.
Nah 1:8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.
Nah 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

FineLinen · May 22, 2020

mmksparbud said:
LOL!! I see there is still not one single incidence of any passage in God's word that describes anyone coming out of the lake of fire. Not one verse where anyne changes their mind after death. These still hold as the final "mysterious" act of God.

I see no indication that any one comes out of our God the consuming Fire! NONE !

ClementofA · May 22, 2020

mmksparbud said:
LOL!! I see there is still not one single incidence of any passage in God's word that describes anyone coming out of the lake of fire.

As for your LOL, i don't consider the unscriptural dogma of doing an endless Hitler job on beings created by Love Omnipotent to be a light or laughing matter, but one of utmost seriousness.

And concerning anyone coming out of lake of fire, the second death. The Saviour of all says death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26). God will be "all in all" (v.28) even all those who were in Adam of the context (v.22). That alone debunks your endless punishment theory & affirms Scriptural universalism.

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

For further evidence, in the book of Revelation, the gates into New Jerusalem will be always open & leaves for the healing of the nations. The immortals in the NJ need no healing. That's for those in the lake of fire.

Furthermore there is mountains of additional evidence for universalism:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

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213 Questions Without Answers:

mmksparbud said:
These still hold as the final "mysterious" act of God.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Re Mal. 4 do you think this is talking about the LOF:

3"You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts.

1Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Burned up does not mean endlessly annihilated out of existence. People are cremated, i.e. burned up, every day. Guess what? Everyone of them will be resurrected back to life. They were "burned up" but not annihilated out of existence forever. Therefore the two words "burned up" do not support your theory. You are wrong in saying they mean anyone is endlessly annihilated.

Second death. You've provided no evidence "second death" means endlessly annihilated. How do you explain those alive in the lake of fire? Alive is not dead.

The reference to "left neither root nor branch" (Mal.4) is figurative language. Human beings aren't trees. Malachi 4 speaks of what will happen on a "day", not in eternity. The wicked will be ashes under the feet of the righteous. This passage, like the others, does not deny a future resurrection to these wicked, nor affirm them being endlessly annihilated, so does not support your theory. You have to read that into the context by assumption and add your theory to the words of God in Malachi 4. Because it isn't there.

Ashes refer to physical bodies, not bodyless souls. So that their bodies in the LOF become ashes doesn't deal with the matter of whether or not a soul can repent in the LOF. Any references to unbelievers & ashes (i.e. being cremated) are irrelevant to the topic of their final destiny if you believe that the soul lives on after the death of the body.

Malachi 1:11 ESV

For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.

Malachi 3:2-4 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. "He will sit as a smelter
and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. "Then the
offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

ClementofA · May 22, 2020

mmksparbud said:
This will be the end of Stan and his followers.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Some of the more literal & honest translations say:

All knowing thee among the peoples Have been astonished at thee, Wastes thou hast been, and thou art not -- to the age.' "(Ezek.28:19, YLT)
All knowing you among the peoples Have been astonished at you, Wastes you have been, and you are not--to the eon. (CLV)
All that had known thee among the peoples were astounded over thee,— A terror, hast thou become, And art not I Unto times age-abiding. (Ro)

The passage reveals the king is dead...to "the eon", an indefinite time period in the future. Until his resurrection.

The Hebrew confirms the same, saying AD[5704] OLAM[5769], until eon. Rendering that "until forever" would be rather strange, if not nonsensical.

Satan is a spirit being. He can't be burned to "ashes":

Ezek.28:18b So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.

Notice that verse 28 also says it already happened, so it couldn't be referring to a future event or Satan. And the ashes were on the "ground" not in the lake of fire.

Furthermore, the subject of Ezek 28:1-19 is the leader of Tyre whom God clearly says is a "man" (v.2,9).

Then in the next verse, in v.19, we see again that his destruction is in the past, not the future, which rules out it being a reference to Satan:

"though thou hast been a terror, so the Hebrew,"

Bible Commentaries

Young's Literal Translation
All knowing thee among the peoples Have been astonished at thee, Wastes thou hast been, and thou art not -- to the age.' (Ezek.28:19).

XYZ said:
If you can't see that the King of Tyre is Satan, I can't help you. He was created a cherub and in the garden of Eden.

Perhaps, then, when Jesus said to chop your offensive hands & feet off & pluck out your offensive eyes, you took that literally, too? How many body parts do you have left now?

When someone says of a human "he's an angel" do you take that literally, too.

Satan was a serpent in the garden of Eden, not a cherub. The only cherubs in the garden of Eden are referred to here & none of them is Satan:

Gen.3:24 yea, he casteth out the man, and causeth to dwell at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flame of the sword which is turning itself round to guard the way of the tree of life.

Satan was not a lowly king of a measly little place called Tyrus. He offered Jesus the kingdoms of the whole world!

And, again, Satan, a non physical spirit being cannot be turned into physical ashes (Ezek.28:19).

XYZ said:
"Thou hast been in Eden the Garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the Sardis, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."

Again, "created", not born of woman here-a chereub.

Ezekiel 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

God creates all beings (Psa.89:27; 102:18; Isa.43:7), including humans. So the word "created" can apply to humans like Ezek.28 says the king of Tyre is (v.2,9).

"Moreover, it is always well to inquire what is intended by "perfect" in the Scriptures. The Greek has three words for "perfect," and the Hebrew uses it for about six. It is questionable whether it ever denotes sinlessness. Any other meaning would be of little value in this discussion. The word used in Ezekiel 28:15 is tahmeem, meaning flawless. The A. V. renders it without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely, sincerity, sound, without spot, undefiled, upright, uprightly, whole. It is most often found of the animals used in sacrifice. Noah was "perfect" (Gen.6:9) in his generations. This certainly does not mean that he was sinless. David said, "I was also upright perfect before Him." Does this prove that David escaped the lot of all of Adam's descendants up to this time? It is evident that the meaning is limited to apparent flaws, not to innate tendencies. It is not a question of sinlessness."

XYZ said:
If you can't see that the King of Tyre is Satan, I can't help you. He was created a cherub and in the garden of Eden.

Then perhaps your excessive literality should also lead you to believe Pharoah was really a literal tree in the garden of Eden & a sea monster:

"Ezekiel himself is full of graphic, poetic images and metaphors (comparisons in which one thing is simply called another without “like” or “as”), one of which is a statement that Pharaoh was a tree in Eden, God’s garden (Ezek. 31:1-18; he is also a sea monster, 29:3-5)."

"...Yet another explanation is better than either the devil-interpretation or the Adam-interpretation: Ezekiel explicitly compares the ruler of Babylon to a cherub (28:14-15). Genesis calls neither Adam nor the serpent a cherub, but does refer explicitly to cherubim in the garden: God’s angels stationed there to keep Adam and Eve out after their fall (Gen. 3:24; cf. Ezek. 28:14-15 NIV: “guardian cherub”).

"...Having this in mind, when we read verses 11-19 we must understand that this is figurative language describing the former blessing of the king of Tyre when he was being faithful to God."

"...in Eden—The king of Tyre is represented in his former high state (contrasted with his subsequent downfall), under images drawn from the primeval man in Eden, the type of humanity in its most Godlike form."

"...vs. 14 uses the word "cherub", but it is still part of the poetical hyberpole of the comparison of the kings fall into pride and sin with the fall of Adam. This chapter is not about a fallen angel from heaven."

"...Yes, it is a metaphor. Many metaphors are indicated by the words "as", or "like". But when poetry is used, metaphors are to be understood as implied."

"...Indeed the text isn't clear there (whether he was the anointed cherub or with the anointed cherub"

"...When there is an inspired narrative that contains a significant portion of symbolism (as several biblical books do) and there is no specific historical connection within the immediate context, the conscientious Bible student must seek to determine, on the basis of a broader context, what the background of the text may be."

"In other words, he is not at liberty to extract, from his own imagination, an “interpretation” that is wholly alien to the historical text or that stands in contradiction to information found elsewhere in the scriptures."

"On the other hand, when the context specifically identifies the thrust of the symbolism, the issue is settled. And it is nothing short of exegetical criminality to substitute one’s personal “expository agenda” for that which the inspired author has stated explicitly."

There are wicked spirits in heavenly places, but they are not humans:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":

Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:

Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. :idea:

Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

mmksparbud · May 22, 2020

FineLinen said:
I see no indication that any one comes out of our God the consuming Fire! NONE !

|THANK Y0U FOR CAPTURING EXACTLY HOW I FEEL RESPONDING TO YOUR POSTS!!!

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

ClementofA · May 22, 2020

mmksparbud said:
The final act of God is to utterly destroy sin.

Then we agree, eh? There will be universal salvation of all that ever lived, including Judas, Pharoah, Saul, Hitler, etc.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

mmksparbud said:
Nah 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
Nah 1:4 He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth.
Nah 1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
Nah 1:6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
Nah 1:7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.
Nah 1:8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.
Nah 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Do you have a point to make? Or just like quoting lousy Bible translations?

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of MEN.

Lamentations 3 KJV

a-lily-of-peace · May 22, 2020

FineLinen said:
Dear Lily: Mankind does indeed love darkness. That darkness is evident (very) on Christian sites in individuals who have a form of godliness, but alas, deny the power of the Risen One.

God loves the world, He always has, He always will. Believing into Him requires an intervention of Heavenly proportions. For the malista (especially) of His love & grace, the intervention has begun, for the masses of sin & despair their day is coming.

The glorious message of John 3 for us & them is sure. God did NOT send His Son into the world for condemnation but to one end...

That the world should be saved in & thru Him.

Will our God prevail?

I disagree with your question. God has prevailed, he is prevailing, and he will prevail. Why do you ask me this then?

Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”
And they divided His garments and cast lots.
(Luke 23:34, NKJV)

Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
(Acts 7:60, NKJV)

Do you see how these are the same? I feel like there’s only one side of the forgiveness of sins for the whole world being discussed, the side where our own sins are forgiven and we can be reconciled. I’m not taking anything away from that, but see:

And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
(Matthew 6:12, NKJV)

When I read that, I can’t hope for anyone to be punished, I can only hope for mercy. I think you hope for the same. That isn’t bad.

But then you ask me if God would win as if I were entertaining the thought that he would lose?

Let go of any resentments, pray for mercy, pray for peace, pray for grace. But some of the conversations here [and maybe you call this darkness] take things too far.

“Is Jesus Christ a failure if...” - too far.
“Is God a monster if...” - too far.

Maybe it’s deliberately provocative philosophising,

But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
(2 Timothy 2:23, NKJV)

I say this not as someone perfect but as someone being perfected (and falling short) when it comes to perfecting what’s in my heart so that evil doesn’t come out of my mouth.

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
(2 Peter 1:5-7, NKJV)

ClementofA · May 22, 2020

mmksparbud said:
|THANK Y0U FOR CAPTURING EXACTLY HOW I FEEL RESPONDING TO YOUR POSTS!!!

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Been there, done that:

mmksparbud said:
Sorry--but I am not into repeating over and over the same things with the same people! I will not go on over this issue with you as I have said all there is to say and you have said all there is to say from your perspective. I do not, will never see it your way. God wants everyone to be saved-that doesn't mean He makes anyone to choose Him, If they don't want Him, then He can not help them. He is a devouring fire to those without His protection, we will live in His fire because His blood protects us, with that, we can not live in that fire--sin can not live in His presence.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

It is not the wicked that live in an everlasting fire---it is the saved. As Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego did---as the burning bush with Moses we an live in His presence--sin can not. Sin is as a drop of water on the sun. Not that the sun wants to kill it--that is just what happens without the blood of Jesus.
I will not keep saying this, so you may have the last word.

Nothing there says anyone is annihilated into endless oblivion.

More literal & accurate translations say:

Young's Literal Translation
14 Afraid in Zion have been sinners, Seized hath trembling the profane: Who doth dwell for us -- consuming fire, Who doth dwell for us -- burnings of the age?

14 Afraid are the sinners in Zion, quivering holds the polluted. Who is telling you of the devouring fire? Who is telling you of the glowings eonian? (CLV)

14 Terror-stricken in Zion,—are sinners, Shuddering hath seized the impious,—Who among us can sojourn with a fire that devoureth? Who among us can sojourn with burnings age-abiding? (RO)

Compare Jude 1:7 which also speaks of "eonian fire", the fire which killed those in Sodom. Were those of Sodom annihilated forever by that "eonian fire"? No, just their bodies were killed, not their souls or spirits. And even their bodies were only killed temporarily until the resurrection. Their bodies were turned into ashes, which BTW is the same language used in Isaiah 33:

11b Your breath is a fire that will consume you. 12a The peoples will be burned to ashes

Bodies are turned to ashes, not souls or spirits. So v.12 is speaking only of their bodies. It tell us nothing about the final destiny of their souls.

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

That word "aionios" [eonian] is the same Greek word used in Jude 1:7 and the equivalent of the Hebrew word olam in Isa.33:14.

More examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

And what is the conclusion of the matter according to Isaiah 45:

22“Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23By myself I have sworn;
from my mouth has gone out in righteousness
a word that shall not return:
‘To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.’d

24“Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me,
are righteousness and strength;
to him shall come and be ashamed
all who were incensed against him.
25In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
shall be justified and shall glory.”

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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mmksparbud · May 22, 2020

ClementofA said:
Some of the more literal & honest translations say:

All knowing thee among the peoples Have been astonished at thee, Wastes thou hast been, and thou art not -- to the age.' "(Ezek.28:19, YLT)
All knowing you among the peoples Have been astonished at you, Wastes you have been, and you are not--to the eon. (CLV)
All that had known thee among the peoples were astounded over thee,— A terror, hast thou become, And art not I Unto times age-abiding. (Ro)

The passage reveals the king is dead...to "the eon", an indefinite time period in the future. Until his resurrection.

The Hebrew confirms the same, saying AD[5704] OLAM[5769], until eon. Rendering that "until forever" would be rather strange, if not nonsensical.

Satan is a spirit being. He can't be burned to "ashes":

Ezek.28:18b So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.

Notice that verse 28 also says it already happened, so it couldn't be referring to a future event or Satan. And the ashes were on the "ground" not in the lake of fire.

Furthermore, the subject of Ezek 28:1-19 is the leader of Tyre whom God clearly says is a "man" (v.2,9).

Then in the next verse, in v.19, we see again that his destruction is in the past, not the future, which rules out it being a reference to Satan:

"though thou hast been a terror, so the Hebrew,"

Bible Commentaries

Young's Literal Translation
All knowing thee among the peoples Have been astonished at thee, Wastes thou hast been, and thou art not -- to the age.' (Ezek.28:19).

Perhaps, then, when Jesus said to chop your offensive hands & feet off & pluck out your offensive eyes, you took that literally, too? How many body parts do you have left now?

When someone says of a human "he's an angel" do you take that literally, too.

Satan was a serpent in the garden of Eden, not a cherub. The only cherubs in the garden of Eden are referred to here & none of them is Satan:

Gen.3:24 yea, he casteth out the man, and causeth to dwell at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flame of the sword which is turning itself round to guard the way of the tree of life.

Satan was not a lowly king of a measly little place called Tyrus. He offered Jesus the kingdoms of the whole world!

And, again, Satan, a non physical spirit being cannot be turned into physical ashes (Ezek.28:19).

God creates all beings (Psa.89:27; 102:18; Isa.43:7), including humans. So the word "created" can apply to humans like Ezek.28 says the king of Tyre is (v.2,9).

"Moreover, it is always well to inquire what is intended by "perfect" in the Scriptures. The Greek has three words for "perfect," and the Hebrew uses it for about six. It is questionable whether it ever denotes sinlessness. Any other meaning would be of little value in this discussion. The word used in Ezekiel 28:15 is tahmeem, meaning flawless. The A. V. renders it without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely, sincerity, sound, without spot, undefiled, upright, uprightly, whole. It is most often found of the animals used in sacrifice. Noah was "perfect" (Gen.6:9) in his generations. This certainly does not mean that he was sinless. David said, "I was also upright perfect before Him." Does this prove that David escaped the lot of all of Adam's descendants up to this time? It is evident that the meaning is limited to apparent flaws, not to innate tendencies. It is not a question of sinlessness."

Then perhaps your excessive literality should also lead you to believe Pharoah was really a literal tree in the garden of Eden & a sea monster:

"Ezekiel himself is full of graphic, poetic images and metaphors (comparisons in which one thing is simply called another without “like” or “as”), one of which is a statement that Pharaoh was a tree in Eden, God’s garden (Ezek. 31:1-18; he is also a sea monster, 29:3-5)."

"...Yet another explanation is better than either the devil-interpretation or the Adam-interpretation: Ezekiel explicitly compares the ruler of Babylon to a cherub (28:14-15). Genesis calls neither Adam nor the serpent a cherub, but does refer explicitly to cherubim in the garden: God’s angels stationed there to keep Adam and Eve out after their fall (Gen. 3:24; cf. Ezek. 28:14-15 NIV: “guardian cherub”).

"...Having this in mind, when we read verses 11-19 we must understand that this is figurative language describing the former blessing of the king of Tyre when he was being faithful to God."

"...in Eden—The king of Tyre is represented in his former high state (contrasted with his subsequent downfall), under images drawn from the primeval man in Eden, the type of humanity in its most Godlike form."

"...vs. 14 uses the word "cherub", but it is still part of the poetical hyberpole of the comparison of the kings fall into pride and sin with the fall of Adam. This chapter is not about a fallen angel from heaven."

"...Yes, it is a metaphor. Many metaphors are indicated by the words "as", or "like". But when poetry is used, metaphors are to be understood as implied."

"...Indeed the text isn't clear there (whether he was the anointed cherub or with the anointed cherub"

"...When there is an inspired narrative that contains a significant portion of symbolism (as several biblical books do) and there is no specific historical connection within the immediate context, the conscientious Bible student must seek to determine, on the basis of a broader context, what the background of the text may be."

"In other words, he is not at liberty to extract, from his own imagination, an “interpretation” that is wholly alien to the historical text or that stands in contradiction to information found elsewhere in the scriptures."

"On the other hand, when the context specifically identifies the thrust of the symbolism, the issue is settled. And it is nothing short of exegetical criminality to substitute one’s personal “expository agenda” for that which the inspired author has stated explicitly."

There are wicked spirits in heavenly places, but they are not humans:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":

Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:

Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

LOL! Um---Nope! It takes you 10,000 words to explain that simple passage!!? You really think this needs a collage thesis?!It is self explanatory and trust me---I have heard all the stuff about it about the King of Tyre and when you break it down---nope. Before being kicked out of heaven, Lucifer was a cover8ng cherub---Gabriel took over his position. Lucifer was the highest of the angels, standing next to God with His wings covering His glory. Satan is a created being---created by Jesus---and guess what---Jesus can most defi8nately destroy him---and will. God alone is immortal. No angel, no man is i9mmortal and never was. Adam and Eve had to eat of the tree of life---that is why they were kicked out of the garden of Eden---so they would not eat of it and live forever, in sin---you can read that for yourself.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And yes---Jesus does reconcile all---all who accept His death as atonement for their sin. Again---No one who does not wish to be saved and live with God will be forced to do so. If that was the case---God could have done so at the very start and bypassed all this agony! No one is going into the lake of fire in order to be saved---0they go in to pay for their sins---of which they never repented of before death. No 2nd chance after death.
So far---I see nothing new here---good bye---I've got 3 loaves of bread and 8 rolls to bake!

a-lily-of-peace · May 22, 2020

ClementofA said:
"Mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:13b)

Judgement, not hopelessness. Judgement, not no more chances for salvation. Judgement, not Love Omnipotent's love has expired like a carton of milk. Judgement, not the hand of the Almighty is impotent to save.

"Anyone who knows anything about the Greek of the New Testament (and elsewhere) knows that extraneous articles are used all the time, and that very frequently it’s not at all meaningful. (The converse holds true, too; and it’s the reason why you don’t see John 1:1c translated as “The Word was a god.”)"

"Then in the second part of the verse they *add* a definite article, ‘the’ in front of the word ‘judgement’. Why is this done? It isn’t hard to imagine that it is done to scare people into submission by convincing them it must be done before they die and it is too late."

"Looking at the most popular English translations, only KJV has “the judgment,” whereas NRSV, NIV, ESV, NASB, NET et al. don’t."

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I’m going to reply to all of your replies in one reply to make it cleaner so if I do overlook something specific you feel I didn’t consider please let me know.

The point of the word is not whether it’s judgement, a judgement, or the judgement, but rather having faith in God’s judgement above our own understanding. It’s unconditional surrender to the will of God through Messiah even (especially) when it doesn’t make sense.

I don’t find it easy to think about hell, so I don’t much. Because for me, right now, I can in good faith say that I don’t understand and I don’t want to try to twist anything to conform to my human understanding, so your will, not mine be done, and that’s it.

Maybe that’s the end of the conversation there.

If it continues, it seems like we both agree that the lake of fire is referenced in scripture and it’s a question of whether the torment is for eternity or for an aion. I don’t speak Greek so I can’t offer anything in relation to which translation is true, so for both:

If the lake of fire is for eternity, maybe this is the end of the conversation now? You’re entirely convinced this is impossible so I’ll just tell you something.

Before I converted, someone told me things about wanting the entire world to be destroyed. My response was so clear, and it was no, because if the world ended then, “I would be trapped here forever.”

It wasn’t a rational or reasonable response, it was instinct. And I think that’s the same instinct that animals have, when they can’t tell you a thing about barometric pressure or seismic patterns, but they know when to run.

That’s real to me, and I only pray that every time I need to run, I listen.

So then, the other option, if the lake of fire does only last for an aion, what do you think comes after? And how do you perceive “the Alpha and the Omega” as used here:

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
(Revelation 22:12-17, NKJV)

mmksparbud · May 22, 2020

ClementofA said:
Then we agree, eh? There will be universal salvation of all that ever lived, including Judas, Pharoah, Saul, Hitler, etc.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Do you have a point to make? Or just like quoting lousy Bible translations?

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of MEN.

Lamentations 3 KJV

No---unless you now agree that all sinners,. including Satan will be annihilated in the lake of fire--No verse states anyone comes out of that lake unto life eternal with Jesus---eternal life is a gift from God to the saved not to the lost. So far you are not saying anything new---same old stuff none of which has any truth to it. All sin, all sinners, are annihilated in the lake of fire---period. The lake of fire is not for repenting, it is punishment, judgement for sin, not for reconciliation. The time for that is prior to death for there is no 2nd chance after death. And no---He doesn't afflict willingly---He does what He has to do to get rid of sin once and for all for "affliction will not rise a 2nd time." And yes---He will caste off the unrepentant forever!! He does not caste off forever those who repent.
Got to go---bread is about to burn---and you know hoe that goes, once something is burned---it is no longer useable.

FineLinen · May 22, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
I disagree with your question. God has prevailed, he is prevailing, and he will prevail. Why do you ask me this then?

Lily: The question was for any reading these scribblings.

You are of course correct. Our God prevails. Mankind, absorbed in its wee broken wills? Nope!

The glorious message of John 3 for us & them is sure. God did NOT send His Son into the world for condemnation but to one end...

That the world should be saved in & thru Him.

FineLinen · May 22, 2020

"FOR I CAME NOT TO JUDGE THE WORLD, BUT TO SAVE THE WORLD." (John 12: 47)

This is as distinct a statement of Christ's purpose as is possible.

The force of His statement can only be evaded by asserting that Christ would fail to accomplish that very thing which He came to do.

This assertion must be made in union with those explicit passages which declare the completeness of His triumph.

"Wherefore God also has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

The language in the koine is stronger than "at". For any individual who grasps what it means to be in the Lord Jesus Christ, there should come an idea of what Phil. 2 means.

That IN/en the Name of Jesus EVERY knee bows, every tongue confesses, You are Lord.

Yes indeed, the confession of every dimension of heavens, earth & underworld is NOT by perfunctory genuflections but in union with the Name of all names.

The radical ALL

FineLinen · May 22, 2020

"...'Every knee shall bow'. The universal scope of the adoration offered to Jesus as Lord is described by the words 'every knee shall bow' and 'every tongue confess'. (v.11)...The bending of the knee was an expression denoting great reverence and submission in the OT, especially marking the humble approach of the worshipper who felt his need so keenly that he could not stand upright before God. While the usual position in prayer was that of standing (e.g., Je. 18:20; 1 Ki. 18:15; 17:1, etc), in times of special need or extremity the worshipper fell on his knees (so Ez. 9:5, 15). Likewise in the Gospels people stand to pray (Lk.18:11, 13) and Jesus assumes His disciples will stand (cf. Mt.6:5); but when there is an acute sense of need or urgent entreaty, the supplicant falls down before God. So Jesus in Gethsemane bows down in lowly submission and distress (Mt.26:9; Mk.14:35; Lk.22:41). The bowing of the knee here at Phil. 2:10, as Martin puts it, is 'a mark of extreme abasement and submission (as in Eph. iii.14) and denotes that the universal homage marks the subjection of those who kneel to the lordship of Christ'."

Thank you ClementofA

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