Purveyor of Confusion

Tom 1 · May 21, 2020

cvanwey said:
What IS required for true salvation?
Is it faith alone? Is it more?
Are there exceptions?
And if so, what and why?
And how do you know?
And furthermore, what say-you of the 'true-blue Christians' whom cite other passages, which speak about opposing propositions to salvation?

Here’s an enormous surprise: there are things you can read in the bible that address these questions! I know, right? Who wudda thunk it? To understand the role faith plays, for starters, you need to understand Abraham’s story. So, what do you think Abraham’s story is about, and why?

cvanwey · May 21, 2020

Tom 1 said:
Here’s an enormous surprise: there are things you can read in the bible that address these questions! I know, right? Who wudda thunk it? To understand the role faith plays, for starters, you need to understand Abraham’s story. So, what do you think Abraham’s story is about, and why?

Okay, here's a 'enormous surprise.' If the Bible truly addressed all these questions adequately, we would not have so many differing denominations

And we would also be able to account for God's role in the ones whom do not have the ability to perform them

And I'll do you one better, in regards to Abram:

Abraham | Facts & Significance

*******************

Are we going to explore now? Or, are you going to remain as undefined as what the Bible infers about true blasphemy?

Again:

What IS required for true salvation?
Is it faith alone? Is it more?
Are there exceptions?
And if so, what and why?
And how do you know?
And furthermore, what say-you of the 'true-blue Christians' whom cite other passages, which speak about opposing propositions to salvation?

Tom 1 · May 21, 2020

cvanwey said:
Okay, here's a 'enormous surprise.' If the Bible truly addressed all these questions adequately, we would not have so many differing denominations And we would also be able to account for God's role in the ones whom do not have the ability to perform them

And I'll do you one better, in regards to Abram:

Abraham | Facts & Significance

*******************

Are we going to explore now? Or, are you going to remain as undefined as what the Bible infers about true blasphemy?

Again:

What IS required for true salvation?
Is it faith alone? Is it more?
Are there exceptions?
And if so, what and why?
And how do you know?
And furthermore, what say-you of the 'true-blue Christians' whom cite other passages, which speak about opposing propositions to salvation?

What is the point of this post?

What is your notion of ‘true blasphemy’? Where does that idea come from? Are you saying that you don’t understand the difference between what the text in the bible means, in the passage that for some reason you refuse to read (???) and some other notion you have about it that isn’t in the text? Please clarify what you mean.

Tom 1 · May 21, 2020

cvanwey said:
And I'll do you one better, in regards to Abram:

One better? Linking to an article is one better than answering the question ‘what do you think the story of Abraham is about?’ How’s that?

You’re not going to answer any of these questions, right?

cvanwey · May 21, 2020

Tom 1 said:
What is the point of this post?

What is your notion of ‘true blasphemy’? Where does that idea come from? Are you saying that you don’t understand the difference between what the text in the bible means, in the passage that for some reason you refuse to read (???) and some other notion you have about it that isn’t in the text? Please clarify what you mean.

I'm sorry @Tom 1 . I'm tired of explaining myself over and over and over with you. You are either not picking up what I'm putting down, or, forgive me for saying so, being deliberate in avoidance and redirecting.

Tom 1 · May 21, 2020

cvanwey said:
If the Bible truly addressed all these questions adequately,

Ok, show me the explanations (not isolated verses - remember, verses are not there to explain the meaning of the text. Reference complete passages with some illustration of how they explain what you think they mean) that are not adequate. Remember also please we are talking about the texts here, not some other stuff you think.

Tom 1 · May 21, 2020

cvanwey said:
I'm sorry @Tom 1 . I'm tired of explaining myself over and over and over with you. You are either not picking up what I'm putting down, or, forgive me for saying so, being deliberate in avoidance and redirecting.

No I do see that you are saying. The text says one thing, it compares notions of good and evil, the concepts of impure spirits vs the Holy Spirit, compares how different people respond to Christ, highlights how confusing these different categories - most relevantly confusing what is good with what is evil, and what is pure/holy with what is impure - can lead to conflict and how insisting, deciding, to invert those concepts, to choose to believe that good is evil and evil is good, is what is meant by blasphemy - as it says in the text. You can go through the text and argue, point by point, how that isn’t what it says if you like. Or, you can continue to insist why your notion about what is meant - which isn’t in the text - is relevant. You could at least try and use the text to give that idea some credence. Your point it not what isn’t clear, what isn’t clear is why you think your point has some relevance to the text.

Tom 1 · May 21, 2020

cvanwey said:
I'm sorry @Tom 1 . I'm tired of explaining myself over and over and over with you. You are either not picking up what I'm putting down, or, forgive me for saying so, being deliberate in avoidance and redirecting.

Redirecting to the text. Between the two things 1) what Cvanwey thinks and 2) what the text says, 2 is a better indicator of what is in the text.

cvanwey · May 21, 2020

Tom 1 said:
One better? Linking to an article is one better than answering the question ‘what do you think the story of Abraham is about?’ How’s that?

You’re not going to answer any of these questions, right?

If you read the small link, you would see what the significance of the story line attempts to convey.

"He obeyed unquestioningly"

But here's a newsflash... Many pray to God, and never feel they receive any contact. Thus, if faith IS it, or the beginnings of being it, then many of us are screwed. I prayed to 'God' for decades.

It's kind of hard to induce 'true faith', when you doubt such an agent is there to listen. Or maybe, is there, and chooses not to answer.

When I was a Christian, I also adhered to 'faith'. I figured, some day, it would be my time and God would reveal. Well, never happened. Thus, looks as though I'm faced with my own little dichotomy...

Christianity requires faith, I obviously don't have it, as I cannot make myself truly believe in something I doubt a little or a lot.....

Or,

adhere to other verses from the Bible, which also speak about the way to salvation; such as Matthew 25:31-46. Maybe God's reverence for helping other's truly overshadows what He sees in individuals whom doubt? Maybe God accepts those, without true faith, but judges based upon their works?

WHO KNOWS????

At any time, you can address my questions now.

What IS required for true salvation?
Is it faith alone? Is it more?
Are there exceptions?
And if so, what and why?
And how do you know?
And furthermore, what say-you of the 'true-blue Christians' whom cite other passages, which speak about opposing propositions to salvation?

Tom 1 · May 21, 2020

cvanwey said:
He obeyed unquestioningly

You see that’s the problem with citing a third party when you don’t know the topic. Which introduces another problem, why discuss this if you can’t be bothered to get to know the topic? Once again, what do you think of Abraham’s story?

cvanwey · May 21, 2020

Tom 1 said:
You see that’s the problem with citing a third party when you don’t know the topic. Which introduces another problem, why discuss this if you can’t be bothered to get to know the topic? Once again, what do you think of Abraham’s story?

Bye bye, ala post #665

cvanwey · May 21, 2020

agapelove said:
Likewise I see that you are earnestly seeking the truth. I would be frustrated as well if everyone was giving me different answers to a legitimate question.

Thank you. It's quite frustrating, in the sense that some tell me I'm the one confused, when it instead is indicated that virtually none of them agree themselves.

Oh well, I guess it's 'par for the course' around these parts.

agapelove said:
Sure. There are four different words generally translated into hell in our English Bible (Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus). None of these are actually and literally the place of eternal torment we imagine as "hell". 2 of the words mean "grave", one is a literal valley outside Jerusalem, and the last is a prison for angels. Whichever word you decide on it is not the final destination. All 4 "hells" are eventually cast into the Lake of Fire.

This response polarizes additional points of confusion.

- Wouldn't God have known that later translations, namely the 'English' translation alone, would 'generalize' these (4) words? --- Making it appear to the 'English speaking world', that only two permanent realms exist - (heaven and hell)? God cares not to rectify this confusion?

- Looks as though some verses still express that this place is eternal torment. What about the verses which go out of their way to express as such? (i.e.) Mark 9:43 and Matthew 25:46

- Seems as though God relies upon changing language(s) to communicate His Word?

agapelove said:
Sorry if I am being vague. I'm afraid that the position I wish to argue regarding that question is considered unorthodox and I am not sure I can address it directly in the apologetics section. I don't wish to draw unnecessary attention to this thread so that is why I tell you to do your own research. That shouldn't be a problem for you if you are earnestly seeking answers as you say you are.

What I can tell you is that there were some Early Church Fathers and Saints that understood the Lake of Fire as a symbolic purifying fire.

Okay, so are you saying that all eventually go to heaven? A simple yes or no will suffice

It would seem the Bible makes it pretty clear, however, that some never go to heaven (i.e.) Mark 9:43 and Matthew 25:46

agapelove said:
I have previously given you the scriptures containing God's eternal purpose. They are stated in Ephesians 1:9-10 and Colossians 1:19-20.

Seems rather vague... Let's explore what you state below.

agapelove said:
I think you need to reframe your question. Salvation is humanity's freedom from the bondage of sin and death and that was fully accomplished at the cross. Nothing was or is 'required' for salvation on our part otherwise that would negate the grace.

So grace is enough, we all go.

agapelove said:
If you are asking what is required for us to enter into the New Heavens and New Earth and come fully into the presence of God, then much is required.

Okay, grace is not nearly enough?

agapelove said:
All who wish to enter through the gates must first "wash their robes" (Rev 22:14). This act requires faith, repentance, works, obedience, all of the above. Only those who have become like Christ can enter.

Okay, so you actually adhere to grace, faith, and works; as a requirement for salvation?

agapelove said:

Ephesians 2:6 It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up in Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

Click to expand...

agapelove said:
Whether we like it or not our seats have been prepared in Heaven. Will you choose to have faith in this, and wash your robes?

I cannot force myself to believe in something. Do you think I can will this belief? And wouldn't God also know that people cannot will a belief?

agapelove · May 21, 2020

cvanwey said:
This response polarizes additional points of confusion.

- Wouldn't God have known that later translations, namely the 'English' translation alone, would 'generalize' these (4) words? --- Making it appear to the 'English speaking world', that only two permanent realms exist - (heaven and hell)? God cares not to rectify this confusion?

There is no confusion about this. All Christians will agree that hell is cast into the lake of fire so "hell" cannot be a "permanent realm". Moreover, the Lake of Fire is located inside the New Heavens and New Earth (Rev 21), therefore there is only one final realm. All of creation will be under God:

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

So the idea that heaven and hell coexist in the future is not biblical. Seems to me like God has been trying to rectify your confusion for 34 pages now.

cvanwey said:
Looks as though some verses still express that this place is eternal torment. What about the verses which go out of their way to express as such? (i.e.) Mark 9:43 and Matthew 25:46

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.

The word you see there is Gehenna and it is what Jesus always used for "hell". A quick google search of the history of Gehenna and you will know that it was the infamous burial site for murdered Jews. Jeremiah refers to it as the "Valley of Slaughter". Jesus is warning against the real literal consequences of destruction when the Israelites turn away from God and make themselves vulnerable to divine judgment, coming in the form of foreign conquest (Babylon in 587 BC and Rome in 70AD). Gehenna is a metaphor for literal destruction and death that can happen when you succumb to sin. It is not a metaphor for after-life punishment.

Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment.” The words you see there are "aionian" and "kolasin". Again if you are seriously seeking truth on this topic you need to do your own research. It does not mean what you think it means.

At this point you may be thinking, "This is too much work." That is the point of discipleship. If you pray for patience God will give you a line at the DMV. Likewise if you pray for wisdom and clarity God will challenge you with confusion, so that we may seek out the truth and mature into the full measure of the stature of Christ, no longer being infants "carried around by every wind of teaching" (Eph.4:14). If God's word was made as simple as you'd like, it would be no more than milk for a baby. But in order for us to grow into spiritual maturity, we need solid food, hard to chew but filling for the soul (Hebrews 5:11-14).

cvanwey said:
Okay, so are you saying that all eventually go to heaven? A simple yes or no will suffice Seems rather vague...

God is very clear in his purpose for the world. Consider reading 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 again which I have provided for you above ^. God will be "all in all".

cvanwey said:
Okay, so you actually adhere to grace, faith, and works; as a requirement for salvation?

This is what I mean by re-framing your question. God desires, and therefore wills, for the salvation of all. This was accomplished in Christ already, God does not need our help to enact his will. When we say "Yes, I know I am saved," that is the faith part. We welcome the Holy Spirit in so it can begin to transform our thoughts and our actions, that is the works part. This is what it means to acknowledge being "born again", because we were once dead (Ephesians 2:1, Romans 6:23). We do not say "yes" so that we are saved, we say "yes" because we are already saved. This is why anyone who continues to say "no" is denying the truth (no offense). Does this make sense?

cvanwey said:
I cannot force myself to believe in something. Do you think I can will this belief? And wouldn't God also know that people cannot will a belief?

You wake up every morning and choose to believe that your reality is real, do you not? Who is to say that you are actually not living in a simulation and your life is not the 1999 movie The Matrix? You choose to believe every day that there is an entire universe filled with stars and other planets out there even though you have personally not seen it yourself, correct? This is what faith is. You simply say yes.

cvanwey · May 21, 2020

agapelove said:
There is no confusion about this. All Christians will agree that hell is cast into the lake of fire so "hell" cannot be a "permanent realm". Moreover, the Lake of Fire is located inside the New Heavens and New Earth (Rev 21), therefore there is only one final realm. All of creation will be under God:

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

So the idea that heaven and hell coexist in the future is not biblical. Seems to me like God has been trying to rectify your confusion for 34 pages now.

I'm afraid you are mistaken. Every non-denominational church I have ever attended taught a literal eternal hell.

Heck, even Christian sites acknowledge this (Why Is Hell Eternal?)

Sure, you can argue [your] position; maybe even quite handily... But so can they

Why are you right and they are wrong? You both bring forth points to consider.

agapelove said:
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.

The word you see there is Gehenna and it is what Jesus always used for "hell". A quick google search of the history of Gehenna and you will know that it was the infamous burial site for murdered Jews. Jeremiah refers to it as the "Valley of Slaughter". Jesus is warning against the real literal consequences of destruction when the Israelites turn away from God and make themselves vulnerable to divine judgment, coming in the form of foreign conquest (Babylon in 587 BC and Rome in 70AD). Gehenna is a metaphor for literal destruction and death that can happen when you succumb to sin. It is not a metaphor for after-life punishment.

Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment.” The words you see there are "aionian" and "kolasin". Again if you are seriously seeking truth on this topic you need to do your own research. It does not mean what you think it means.

At this point you may be thinking, "This is too much work." That is the point of discipleship. If you pray for patience God will give you a line at the DMV. Likewise if you pray for wisdom and clarity God will challenge you with confusion, so that we may seek out the truth and mature into the full measure of the stature of Christ, no longer being infants "carried around by every wind of teaching" (Eph.4:14). If God's word was made as simple as you'd like, it would be no more than milk for a baby. But in order for us to grow into spiritual maturity, we need solid food, hard to chew but filling for the soul (Hebrews 5:11-14).

You seem to have skipped right over the most important part, in my last response....

"- Seems as though God relies upon changing language(s) to communicate His Word?"

Even IF everything you stated were true, God cares not to provide updates, or correct the mistaken. Millions, or more, interpret incorrectly.

And BTW, I prayed for 30+ years, and feel I received no contact of any sort.

agapelove said:
God is very clear in his purpose for the world. Consider reading 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 again which I have provided for you above ^. God will be "all in all".

Why should I consider this lump of text any more important than another, within this 66 Chapter Book?

Are you allowed to answer the simple question, for which I asked prior? Ultimately, do all humans go to heaven, yes or no?

agapelove said:
This is what I mean by re-framing your question. God desires, and therefore wills, for the salvation of all. This was accomplished in Christ already, God does not need our help to enact his will. When we say "Yes, I know I am saved," that is the faith part. We welcome the Holy Spirit in so it can begin to transform our thoughts and our actions, that is the works part. This is what it means to acknowledge being "born again", because we were once dead (Ephesians 2:1, Romans 6:23). We do not say "yes" so that we are saved, we say "yes" because we are already saved. This is why anyone who continues to say "no" is denying the truth (no offense). Does this make sense?

You are saying I'm in denial right now?

agapelove said:
You wake up every morning and choose to believe that your reality is real, do you not? Who is to say that you are actually not living in a simulation and your life is not the 1999 movie The Matrix? You choose to believe every day that there is an entire universe filled with stars and other planets out there even though you have personally not seen it yourself, correct? This is what faith is. You simply say yes.

I do not 'choose' to believe my reality.

If belief is a choice, make yourself believe the moon is made of chocolate pudding. I dare you

agapelove · May 21, 2020

cvanwey said:
I'm afraid you are mistaken. Every non-denominational church I have ever attended taught a literal eternal hell.

Well I understand now why you left.

cvanwey said:
Heck, even Christian sites acknowledge this (Why Is Hell Eternal?)
Sure, you can argue [your] position; maybe even quite handily... But so can they Why are you right and they are wrong? You both bring forth points to consider.

Why do you turn to Christian wikipedias for truth? Maybe this is why you are confused. Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 14:10 "he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." These passages take place in the New Heaven and New Earth so you can deduct the Lake of Fire is located in the new heavenly places. Clearly hell is not the same place as the Lake of Fire.

cvanwey said:
You seem to have skipped right over the most important part, in my last response....

"- Seems as though God relies upon changing language(s) to communicate His Word?"

Even IF everything you stated were true, God cares not to provide updates, or correct the mistaken. Millions, or more, interpret incorrectly.

He also chose to speak to Moses through a burning bush and Jesus chose to preach in parables. I'm not sure you quite grasp yet that being fully understood is not God's priority. God expects us to be deceived and warns us- "Test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. Every spirit that does not confess 'Jesus' is not from God (1 John 4:1-3)." "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits (Matthew 7:15)." "There must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized (1 Corinthians 11:19)."

You discover the truth by first knowing what is a lie.

cvanwey said:
Why should I consider this lump of text any more important than another, within this 66 Chapter Book?

They are all equally important.

cvanwey said:
Are you allowed to answer the simple question, for which I asked prior? Ultimately, do all humans go to heaven, yes or no?

If I said yes, would you be opposed? The idea you are proposing is called apocatastasis and no I am not sure it is allowed in the apologetics section.

cvanwey said:
You are saying I'm in denial right now?

cvanwey said:
I do not 'choose' to believe my reality.

If belief is a choice, make yourself believe the moon is made of chocolate pudding. I dare you

Why would I try to convince myself of that? How would that benefit me in any way? You, for some reason, think the idea of a God is so rejectable. I am not here to force religion on you or make you out to be less of a person because you do not believe. What I can do is testify to the transforming power of Christ. When I said "yes" to statements like "I am a loved child of God, Jesus Christ died for me, Love never fails, He is the promise of eternal life, God is for me," my life was changed for the better.

You are not a robot with no control over what you believe. You can choose to see the glass as half full and you can choose to see there is more to life.

John 10:10 "I have come so that you may have life, and have it in its fullest."

dcalling · May 22, 2020

cvanwey said:
Moving forward, before you hit 'respond' to an entire mess of answer, I suggest you read what you are actually responding to... Please re-look at post #620. You only addressed the very last point.

I will be happy to respond if you provide an easier way for me to lookup.

cvanwey said:
But I will be happy to address what you have provided thus far.

In regards to the many verses I provided, looks as though it would appear like a reasonable request to ask God to clarify a seemingly ambiguous verse. Furthermore, you stated prior, that you were going to pray for me. Thus, it would seem reasonable to think that you believe God addresses/responds to intercessory prayer?

Already told you I have not fully understand this yet. My understanding is, this is like a kid bargaining with their parent for candies, you may or may not get your wish since your parents knows better what is good for you.

cvanwey said:
So if He does not, in this case, then one might wonder how God can issue such seemingly axiomatic verse(s), and yet, maybe have many undefined restrictions and guidelines?

cvanwey said:
No. My examples were just fine, see below. But in the mean time, just because something is more impervious to 'rot' or fail, in it's intended endeavor, does not mean it still cannot. It is just a tougher 'nut' to crack

It is like material and spiritual world, there is a indestructible line. You either crossed it or not.

cvanwey said:
The love of a mother/child is temporary, because they will all die

Yes they can. This would mean that any former pastor, priest, minister, bible teacher, etc., whom later falls away from 'faith', was never a really a true Christian.

That is correct. I am in the camp of once saved always saved. So if you fall away, you are never saved to begin with.

cvanwey · May 22, 2020

agapelove said:
Well I understand now why you left.

This is not why I left. My only point here, is that many assert and argue, using Biblical verse, that hell is eternal. The point here is that you assert it is not, and they assert that it is. If such realm(s) do actually exist, my point is that there exists confusion, as both of your Christian sides assert they have the evidence to support their position. God apparently cares not to clarify. He sits back, and watches, as centuries of infighting take place. His best example, was to allow humans to write stuff thousands of years ago, while knowing language will change drastically.

agapelove said:
Why do you turn to Christian wikipedias for truth? Maybe this is why you are confused. Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 14:10 "he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." These passages take place in the New Heaven and New Earth so you can deduct the Lake of Fire is located in the new heavenly places. Clearly hell is not the same place as the Lake of Fire.

I didn't. I turned to a rather large website, run by Christians. My point, again, is that confusion exists apparently. You assert one thing, many other Christians assert another. How do we resolve this? Can we ask God? Will He answer?

Seems as though He provided instructions. Can you pray to Him for guidance/clarification, and have Him relay this answer to me?

agapelove said:
He also chose to speak to Moses through a burning bush and Jesus chose to preach in parables. I'm not sure you quite grasp yet that being fully understood is not God's priority. God expects us to be deceived and warns us- "Test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. Every spirit that does not confess 'Jesus' is not from God (1 John 4:1-3)." "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits (Matthew 7:15)." "There must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized (1 Corinthians 11:19)."

You discover the truth by first knowing what is a lie.

Then I guess He will not take it personal when many don't bother to listen; for lack in clarity or evidence. Or will He?

agapelove said:
They are all equally important.

If this is the case, then maybe you are judged merely by how much you help others?

agapelove said:
If I said yes, would you be opposed? The idea you are proposing is called apocatastasis and no I am not sure it is allowed in the apologetics section.

It's not about being 'opposed'. I asked because I wanted to know [your] position on the matter? Hence, it looks to me, that your stance is as follows...

When we die, we either go directly to heaven. Or, some are tortured/cleansed/purified for a bit, and then go to heaven a bit later?

agapelove said:
Why would I try to convince myself of that? How would that benefit me in any way?

My point being, is that I truly doubt you could, even if you tried. This is why you cannot control what you believe.

Sure, you can protect an existing belief, or be in denial. But what you believe, whatever that may be, will not change without some sort of catalyst.

But for some strange reason, God asks that you believe in Him, just for starters. Thus, I ask again, doesn't God already know that we cannot truly control what we believe?

agapelove said:
You, for some reason, think the idea of a God is so rejectable.

On the contrary.... I've given many here, many chances, over the past couple of years, to merely demonstrate His existence. In such a case, I would have no choice but to believe He is for real.

agapelove said:
I am not here to force religion on you or make you out to be less of a person because you do not believe.

You do understand that this could hardly be done under practically any circumstances, right? I could not force you to love someone, on command.

agapelove said:
What I can do is testify to the transforming power of Christ.

Sure you can. Just like I can testify to the contrary that I feel I prayed to myself, and not instead to an existing and listening agent, for >3 decades. Now what? We now have two bonafide anecdotal claims, yours and mine

agapelove said:
You are not a robot with no control over what you believe. You can choose to see the glass as half full and you can choose to see there is more to life.

I can shield myself from evidence, sure. But if the evidence was presented to me, and I understood it, I either accept the evidence and change my position, (or) not find the evidence compelling enough, (or) maybe it makes me think about it for a bit but ultimately still do not change my initial positions, (or) maybe it instantly changes my mind and I either tell others about it or keep it hidden.

miknik5 · May 22, 2020

cvanwey said:
Okay, here's a 'enormous surprise.' If the Bible truly addressed all these questions adequately, we would not have so many differing denominations And we would also be able to account for God's role in the ones whom do not have the ability to perform them

And I'll do you one better, in regards to Abram:

Abraham | Facts & Significance

*******************

Are we going to explore now? Or, are you going to remain as undefined as what the Bible infers about true blasphemy?

Again:

What IS required for true salvation?
Is it faith alone? Is it more?
Are there exceptions?
And if so, what and why?
And how do you know?
And furthermore, what say-you of the 'true-blue Christians' whom cite other passages, which speak about opposing propositions to salvation?

THE FOUNDATION is the most important part and all that is needed for our salvation...and keeping our feet on THAT FOUNDATION is the most important part and all that is needed for our salvation

All denominations, which is simply the outward profession of who and how we worship in community with other believers (before the eyes of men) have some element of error.

However, if they hold to and keep their eyes on THE FOUNDATION and do not go out from THAT FOUNDATION and recognize when yeast and manmade additions and suggestions and ideas and practices and dogma and doctrines are added, then they are doing what is needed and needful...and their profession before the eyes of GOD is that TRUE CONFESSION and PROFESSION of who and what they worship...inwardly before the eyes of GOD

agapelove · May 22, 2020

cvanwey said:
This is not why I left. My only point here, is that many assert and argue, using Biblical verse, that hell is eternal. The point here is that you assert it is not, and they assert that it is. If such realm(s) do actually exist, my point is that there exists confusion, as both of your Christian sides assert they have the evidence to support their position. God apparently cares not to clarify. He sits back, and watches, as centuries of infighting take place. His best example, was to allow humans to write stuff thousands of years ago, while knowing language will change drastically.

I never argued that hell is not eternal. I am arguing that hell (once thrown into the Lake of Fire) is not a separate realm from heaven, otherwise God cannot be "all in all".

cvanwey said:
I didn't. I turned to a rather large website, run by Christians. My point, again, is that confusion exists apparently. You assert one thing, many other Christians assert another. How do we resolve this? Can we ask God? Will He answer?

I understand your point and I concur. Yes there is confusion, we will never resolve it as long as we live. We can only attempt to but even our best efforts will only allow us to see in part (1 Corinthians 13:12). This is not God playing hide-and-seek, it is His command for us to live by faith (2 Corinthians 5:7, Hebrews 11:1). You will not find evidence or perfect answers in faith, only hope and trust.

cvanwey said:
Seems as though He provided instructions. Can you pray to Him for guidance/clarification, and have Him relay this answer to me?

Take any answers from me or others with a grain of salt. The Bible is designed to contain an infinite amount of answers, so that no man can arrogantly say they have all the answers. At some point, we all choose which scriptures we fully embrace, and which scriptures need re-interpreting. This is what I mean by choosing what you believe. God instructs us to have faith, which is the openness to seek and follow Him.

cvanwey said:
Then I guess He will not take it personal when many don't bother to listen; for lack in clarity or evidence. Or will He?

God holds nothing against you (2 Corinthians 5:19), but rather whoever does not believe condemns them self already (John 3:18).

God is love (1 John 4:7, 4:8, 4:16) and God is Spirit (and John 4:24). The fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control according to Galatians 5:22-23. If you believe these things then in all conscience you are not really a nonbeliever. No doubt there are those who condemn themselves by refusing to believe love, choose joy, practice kindness, exercise hope, etc etc etc. So again I ask, why is the existence of God so rejectable for you?

cvanwey said:
If this is the case, then maybe you are judged merely by how much you help others?

Judgment is about what rewards we will receive in the next life.

This is how God tells us we can store up treasures in Heaven:

Giving to the needy (Luke 12:32-33)
Give to those who cannot repay (Luke 14:13-14)
Endure persecution (Matthew 5:11-12)
Loving your enemies (Matthew 5:43-48)
Praying (Matthew 6:5-6)
Serving God and others (Matthew 10:41-42)

cvanwey said:
It's not about being 'opposed'. I asked because I wanted to know [your] position on the matter? Hence, it looks to me, that your stance is as follows... When we die, we either go directly to heaven. Or, some are tortured/cleansed/purified for a bit, and then go to heaven a bit later?

My stance is that God will accomplish his eternal purpose in the end.

cvanwey said:
My point being, is that I truly doubt you could, even if you tried. This is why you cannot control what you believe.

Sure, you can protect an existing belief, or be in denial. But what you believe, whatever that may be, will not change without some sort of catalyst.

But for some strange reason, God asks that you believe in Him, just for starters. Thus, I ask again, doesn't God already know that we cannot truly control what we believe?

You do understand that this could hardly be done under practically any circumstances, right? I could not force you to love someone, on command.

There are many things people choose to believe. Aliens, parallel universes, ghosts, free will, luck, karma, astrology, morality, consciousness. There is as much proof as there is none for these things. You decide what is worth believing, and then you go from there. God included! Faith is how you choose to see the world, which affects how you live in the world and this is a continual process. When you say "I do" in a marriage you can't be certain that it will not end badly for you, but you choose to work hard, be faithful and love your partner until the very end.

cvanwey said:
Sure you can. Just like I can testify to the contrary that I feel I prayed to myself, and not instead to an existing and listening agent, for >3 decades. Now what? We now have two bonafide anecdotal claims, yours and mine

I can shield myself from evidence, sure. But if the evidence was presented to me, and I understood it, I either accept the evidence and change my position, (or) not find the evidence compelling enough, (or) maybe it makes me think about it for a bit but ultimately still do not change my initial positions, (or) maybe it instantly changes my mind and I either tell others about it or keep it hidden.

I'm sorry you feel that you wasted your time for 3 decades. Are you certain that God didn't answer your prayers, or is it simply because you didn't get the response you wanted?

cvanwey · May 23, 2020

dcalling said:
I will be happy to respond if you provide an easier way for me to lookup.

I gave you the information in my response:

"Please re-look at post #620"

dcalling said:
Already told you I have not fully understand this yet. My understanding is, this is like a kid bargaining with their parent for candies, you may or may not get your wish since your parents knows better what is good for you.

Your analogy fails though... If you ask for a cookie, and your mother states no, you can still ask your parent WHY? If your parent never responds with any reason, then maybe your parent is not doing their job?

Maybe then you will never 'understand'? If you claim that God is 'good', God is 'love', and God wants a relationship with His created Humans, (which I'm going to assuming that you do); then you have to ask yourself......

- Does God ever answer petitionary prayers? I would assume your answer is YES.
- Does God ever reveal His presence to humans? YES, if the Bible is true.
- Does God answer prayer requests? YES, if the Bible and the many anecdotal testimonials are true.
- Do humans pray for God's guidance and/or wisdom, and do many claim He responds? YES

You are not asking for something which may spoil your appetite before dinner, or rot your teeth, or aid to diabetes, or aid in weigh gain - (i.e. cookies). You are asking your Creator to clarify a verse He asserted. If He does not want you to know what it means, and further, does not care to entertain this answer to virtually anyone whom asks, then we have to wonder.... WHY?

What prayers DO God entertain? Again, I will tell you, God issues verse(s). These verses lead many to feel God will leave some unforgiven eternally, no-matter-what. [You] state you know what this actually means. Okay, fine. But so do I. We disagree. Seems REASONABLE for God to answer the call to settle this conflict, when asked upon??????????????????

dcalling said:
It is like material and spiritual world, there is a indestructible line. You either crossed it or not.

I see you moved the goalpost now

'Material' involves humans as well.

Again, a parent/child relationship can go awry, and then later be mended. A marriage can go south, and later be mended. A Christian can leave, and later come back.

I'll give you another example....

A 'ride-or-die' professed Christian decides to major in biology. He takes evolutionary biology courses, sees that these findings conflict with Genesis. Since belief cannot be controlled, this student now has no choice but to conclude that his prior believed upon story in Genesis was a 'lie'. To this student, (s)he now has no choice but to no longer trust his believed upon agent. He then gets angry. He curses this God he believes in. He 'speaks against' this believed upon God. He may even later fall away, again, because belief is not really a choice...

BUT, later, after he continues in his career, he comes across the teachings of a 'Roman Catholic'. His name is Kennith R. Miller. He reads the book 'Darwin's God'. After reading this book, he ultimately asks God for forgiveness.

Conclusion: a True-blue Christian can FALL AWAY from God. Why? Many are evangelicals. They believe the Bible is literal. And yet, many are forced to re-evaluate after higher education. And since you cannot control your beliefs, some fall away, beyond their control. Some of these folks may later return, if they should later change their course.. (i.e.) become a more 'liberal' Christian. And these folks could also have reason to fall away. Again, if the evidence presents, which forces their hand to no longer believe, where they believed prior, God may smite these individuals.

So I ask you, yet again, are you SURE a true-blue Christian can never change their mind? Because again, we have millions of YEC's. Most of whom probably are not scientists.

dcalling said:
That is correct. I am in the camp of once saved always saved. So if you fall away, you are never saved to begin with.

Please see above.

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Optimistic sceptic

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