Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

Major1 · May 22, 2020

ClementofA said:
Did you read the right verse:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Those words are not added to Mt.1:21:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

And then He saved the "worst of sinners" whom He sent to both Jews & Gentiles, for Love Omnipotent desires to save all mankind (1 Tim.2:4-6). All would include people like Pharoah, Judas, Hitler, etc.

"Premise 1: God desires all be saved. (e.g., 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires (thelo) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.")

Premise 2: God accomplishes all He desires. (e.g., Isaiah 55:11: "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire (thelo, from the Septuagint), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.")

Conclusion: All will be saved."

1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?

I invite you to read post #233 again.

Major1 · May 22, 2020

ClementofA said:
1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

God as "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) has nothing to do with authority, but God "in" every being who ever lived. "To say that "all in all" signifies "the manifestation of God's supremacy"...is very far indeed from the truth...When we say "Christ is my all," what do we mean? That He is our Lord? Yes, and our Saviour and Friend and our Lover, our Wisdom and our Righteousness, and our Holiness--He is everything to us!...And that is just what God wishes to be and what He will be!...Will He be this only in some? No! He will be All in all!...we have said that when the last enemy [death] is abolished, then the Son abdicates and God becomes All in all. If there were still enmity we might imagine God being over all, but with all enmity gone, it is easy to see how He can become All in all...The "kingdom" is given up to the Father, after all sovereignty and authority and power have been abrogated. What kind of a "supremacy" will God "fully manifest" which has no power, no authority, no sovereignty? Thank God, all these elements, which characterized government during the eons, will be utterly unnecessary when the Son of God is finished with His "mediatorial" work. Instead of God's supremacy being fully manifested at that time, it will be entirely absent, and God, as Father, will guide His family by the sweet constraint of love."

Questions i needed clarified? Nonsense, i said no such thing. Rather i posted scriptures showing you that universal salvation is the teaching of the Sacred Scriptures.

Please read post #233. It actually gives you all you need to understand the falseness of Universalism.

Major1 · May 22, 2020

ClementofA said:
16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross", how can God let anyone end up being tortured or terminated from existence forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?

"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling
but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

"...Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to "reconcile to himself
all things"? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony."

"...The "all things" of verse 20 is as extensive as the "all things" of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything
and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity
with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill "the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure"—"to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
head, even Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind's depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God."
http://blogs.christianpost.com/amba...e-heart-of-gods-grand-plan-for-creation-7138/

"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)...(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).

There is a parallel here:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

It's quite astonishing that many insist that the parallel of aionios in Mt.25:46 means the word must be of the same meaning & duration in both instances, but they don't apply the same reasoning to other passages with parallels, such as Col.1:20 above and these:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Read more: What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

The Universalists false teaching uses the Scriptures you posted to mean the God intends to restore "ALL" things so that in the end EVERYONE will be saved. That is what you are saying.

But that is NOT what the Bible says in Romans 10:13 is it...…….
"Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."

In no way possible does that or can it be thought of as EVERYONE will be saved. Only those who call upon the Lord Jesus will be saved.

One problem with universalism is that it imposes human judgment upon God, saying that logically he cannot be perfect love while punishing sinners in hell. However, God himself warns against attributing human standards to him.
Why Universalism Is Popular, But Fatally Flawed

Isaiah 55:8-9...……..
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

FineLinen · May 22, 2020

Major1 said:
Please read post #233. It actually gives you all you need to understand the falseness of Universalism.

Der Alte · May 22, 2020

Major1 said:
1 Cor.3:15 does not speak of Universalism.
This passage of scripture refers to what is known as the Bema seat judgment. The Bema seat judgment is where believers will give an account for their works and be judged and rewarded accordingly, which is distinct to the type of judgment rendered at the Great White Throne judgment which separates believers unto salvation from unbelievers unto destruction.

If a believer's works are completely judged as worthless even though they have trusted in Christ for their own salvation, it will be like they have been snatched from a fire - they themselves are safe, but everything they labored for is destroyed and unsalvageable. There will of course be relief at being saved, but also a sense of loss as the things labored for that were held dear by the one being judged are revealed as insubstantial, temporary and not 'built' according to the will of the Master.
ttps://christianity.stackexchange.com/unanswered

Mt.1:21 ...….
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins."

100% True for ALL who choose God.

Joshua 24:15
"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

100% correct.
Matthew 15:24
"He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

We gentiles are now able to be saved because the Jews rejected their Messiah.

Rom.11:26....
Again...the misapplication/understanding of the word "ALL" leads to a false gospel.

"ALL" = Everyone WHO comes to Christ by faith before they die will go to heaven. There are no 2nd chances.

Rev.5:13
100% correct. I do not know why you posted it because there is not one word there to indicate Universal salvation.

Rom 5:18
All men… all men - Paul is using all men with two different meanings for the sake of parallelism, a common practice in the Hebrew Old Testament, which is similar Paul's repetition of the phrase the many in Romans 5:15 (note). The first all covers all humanity who are born into Adam. The second all refers to that part of the first all who by grace through faith are reborn into the Last Adam, Christ (Paul repeatedly emphasizes righteousness and faith - see notes Romans 1:16; 17; 3:22; 3:28; 4:5; 4:13. To reiterate - Paul is not teaching universal salvation.)
Romans 5:18-19 Commentary | Precept Austin

Col.1:16
AGAIN....the misunderstanding or purposefully false teaching leads to erroneous doctrine.

The verse you used in Colossians 1:16 is speaking of universal sovereignty and not universal salvation. Jesus is the King of kings. All authority has been given to him in heaven and on earth. Though all will bow before him, some will bow as his children and others as defeated enemies.
Such will it be on the day of judgment. Some will go to an everlasting heaven (new heavens and new earth), and others to an everlasting hell (Matt. 25:46; Mark 9:44). Universalism - Ephesians 1:10 and Colossians 1:20

1 Cor.15:22

1 Cor.15:28
AGAIN.... the wrong understanding of the word "ALL" leads to error.

The inaccurate teaching that the word "all" in scripture, is "everything, all with no exceptions" is easily defeated in light of scripture.

Carelessness and wanton disregard for scripture is a trademark for false doctrine. Scripture clearly removes any ambiguity and clearly defines groups of nations, groups of believer's versus unbeliever's, groups of the Jews versus the Gentiles, those receiving eternal life versus eternal damnation.

The Universalist by spinning/misappropriating the word "ALL" (among others) is caught in a hopeless paradox that cannot be explained in light of scripture.The Reasons Why Universalism is False

Good day my friend and thanks for the questions you needed clarified.

Hope you don't mind I'm going to add my two cents. I have had this same discussion with the same group before quite a few times.
This a favorite verse UR-ites like to quote out-of-context trying make it say all mankind will be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

This entire passage is addressed to a certain group; "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building,"vs. 9, who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ NOT all mankind.
"no man,""any man,""every man," from vs. 9 to 17 refers to that same group.
Vs. 15 does not suddenly refer to all mankind.

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, [foundation of Christ vs. 12] he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

We can plainly see that vs. 15 does not state or imply that all mankind will be saved no matter what because vs. 17 says that any man who defiles the temple will be destroyed NOT saved.

Major1 · May 22, 2020

ClementofA said:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever [or annihilated for eternity].

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11). For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108...

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it." (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

No Sir. There is no salvation after death.

Luke 16:26...……..
"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us."

Right there, the very words of Jesus clearly note there is no option for changing our eternal destiny in the afterlife.

Hebrews 9:27 ...….

"And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment".

I hate to argue these points and with all respect to you, every Scripture you post, you are having to twist it and spin to make it say what your pre-conceived agenda is.

There is just NO way possible to make Universalism acceptable as a Bible truth.

There are NO second chances after death.

You are welcome to copy and paste from every Universalists web site on internet and post the longest comments possible, but you will be doing nothing but wasting time if you think anything said will change my mind.

My experience with people who hold to the Universalist doctrine instead of eternal hell just don’t go to church, at least "ALL" of them I know personally.
Because "ALL" will be saved in the end there is then no need to give a tithe to operate a church, or fund any kind of outreach ministry.

There is NO need to witness to the lost people all around them, so then soul winning is obsolete.

In fact the more you think about it, the whole world can be just like Genesis 6 because in the end...."ALL" will be saved no matter what they do.

Major1 · May 22, 2020

Der Alte said:
Hope you don't mind I'm going to add my two cents. I have had this same discussion with the same group before quite a few times.
This a favorite verse UR-ites like to quote out-of-context trying make it say all mankind will be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
This entire passage is addressed to a certain group; "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building,"vs. 9, who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ NOT all mankind.
"no man,""any man,""every man," from vs. 9 to 17 refers to that same group.
Vs. 15 does not suddenly refer to all mankind.

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, [foundation of Christ vs. 12] he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
We can plainly see that vs. 15 does not state or imply that all mankind will be saved no matter what because vs. 17 says that any man who defiles the temple will be destroyed NOT saved.

Instead of just 2 cents...….why not throw in a dime!!!!!

Major1 · May 22, 2020

FineLinen said:

That is just as funny now as it was when you posted in about 4 months ago over this same subject.

I thank you for it as it certainly describes ME to a "T".

Did you read post #233?????

martymonster · May 22, 2020

What was the Rich man's crime, exactly?

Der Alte · May 22, 2020

Major1 said:
That is just as funny now as it was when you posted in about 4 months ago over this same subject.
I thank you for it as it certainly describes ME to a "T".
Did you read post #233?????

More like. Just sayin'.

Major1 · May 22, 2020

martymonster said:
What was the Rich man's crime, exactly?

If you are referring to Luke 16, I would say "Indifference".

He saw Lazarus, he made no inquiry. He never tried to help, or even give him what fell from his table.

Indifference is non-love which is the only command Christ gave us to follow.

FineLinen · May 22, 2020

There are NO second chances after death. [/QUOTE said:
You have not read the Monster mans post.

God's mercy doesn't expire when you do.

ClementofA · May 22, 2020

Major1 said:
The Universalists false teaching uses the Scriptures you posted to mean the God intends to restore "ALL" things so that in the end EVERYONE will be saved. That is what you are saying.

But that is NOT what the Bible says in Romans 10:13 is it...…….
"Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."

Nothing in Rom.10:13 denies that all will eventually do exactly what it says & be saved.

Romans 10:13 - fails - as a very weak attempt at a "proof text" vs universalism.

Major1 said:
In no way possible does that or can it be thought of as EVERYONE will be saved.

Who ever claimed Rom.10:13 as a "proof text" for universalism?

Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?

ClementofA · May 22, 2020

Der Alte said:
Hope you don't mind I'm going to add my two cents. I have had this same discussion with the same group before quite a few times.
This a favorite verse UR-ites like to quote out-of-context trying make it say all mankind will be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
This entire passage is addressed to a certain group; "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building,"vs. 9, who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ NOT all mankind.
"no man,""any man,""every man," from vs. 9 to 17 refers to that same group.
Vs. 15 does not suddenly refer to all mankind.

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, [foundation of Christ vs. 12] he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
We can plainly see that vs. 15 does not state or imply that all mankind will be saved no matter what because vs. 17 says that any man who defiles the temple will be destroyed NOT saved.

I posted:

Verse 17 refers to the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

DA replied:

Der Alter said:
Nonsense! Typical UR twisting of scripture. Who is 1 Cor addressed to? ch. 1 vs. 2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,"

Yet you've admitted yourself that v.17 refers to a lost person who is obviously therefore a sinner, hence (as i said) a lost sinner. Are you now contradicting yourself? Or have you changed your viewpoint?

Who the letter is addressed to is irrelevant to the subject of who 1 Cor.3:15 is referring to. Just because a letter is addressed to someone does not prove its contents are speaking ONLY about the person it is addressed to. It could speak about MANY other people & topics, such as angels, all mankind, nations, Satan, covenants, other churches, Jews, Gentiles, & other topics besides the one solitary church in Corinth.

I posted:

Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

DA replied:

Der Alter said:
Nonsense! The lost world is not building on the foundation of Christ!

Verse 11 says nothing about anyone "building" on the foundation. It says "no one" (i.e. no person) can another foundation "lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ". By "no one" it refers to all people, all mankind, not just the saints in one city, Corinth.

I posted:

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

DA replied:

Der Alter said:
Total rubbish Paul does not say anything which would indicate that the subject changed from the "saved in the church at Corinth" to "lost sinners."
Placing vs. 15 before vss. 12-14 does not change the subject. The subject of vs. 15, "any man" is the same "any/every man" as in vss. 10-15 those who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ.

Not so. See above.

Der Alter said:
"This foundation" vs. 12 is "Jesus Christ," vs. 10. Sinners are not building anything, of any material, on the foundation of Jesus Christ!

Sinful works - wood, hay & stubble - are being built on the foundation of Jesus Christ (see 1 Cor.3:12) & will be burnt up (v.13-15). This is being done by the sinners (v.11, 17) referred to above. That includes both sinning believers who lost their salvation (v.17) & unbelieving sinners (v.11). You agree that the believer (cf. 17) builds on the foundation. And having lost his salvation cannot enter the kingdom of God in his sinful lost state (6:9-11). So he must first be saved as by fire (1 Cor.3:15).

As to unbelieving sinners, Paul didn't say only believers can build on the foundation [Christ] works of "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble". Scripture says: "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (Jn.1:9). He lighteth "every man", not just Christians. So every man could be said to build on Christ by his life's works according to how one responds to the "Light" which "lighteth every man". And the quality of those works, whether of precious metals or useless things (1 Cor.3), would depend on how each one responded to that "Light" which "lighteth every man", not just Christians. If they build with "silver" (1 Cor.3:12), which represents atonement or redemption in the Scriptures, then they build with faith in Christ's death for their sins. Building with "wood, hay and stubble, OTOH, which contain no silver, is not building with faith & represents unbelief, the unbeliever.

Der Alter said:
"Every man's work" vs. 13 is what was built on the foundation of Jesus Christ, vs. 10, not all the "work" of sinners. Now let us read vss. 16-17.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
(16) Know ye not that ye [plural] are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
The subject of this chapter is laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ. That is who vss. 16-17 are addressed to. Paul said you plural, not "they". Unless you can show some grammatical reason to believe that the subject changed back and forth in this passage.

See above and:

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.

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ClementofA · May 22, 2020

Major1 said:
No Sir. There is no salvation after death.

Luke 16:26...……..
"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us."

Right there, the very words of Jesus clearly note there is no option for changing our eternal destiny in the afterlife.

Lk.16:26a, CLV, And in all this, between us and you a great chasm has been established,

It does not say this chasm will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Neither does it explain what keeps those who are in torments from crossing over. Or deny that if they repented they could then end their torments.

The story applies that chasm to Hades & Lazarus' location, while people are there, not to after they get out of Hades. Neither does the story say the chasm is eternal or can never be destroyed or removed. It only applies as a barrier between Hades & Lazarus' location, not to other realms outside of those, such as the lake of fire & the new Jerusalem. In fact, we are told that the gates into the holy city are always open & never shut.

" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

Tom Talbott said:

"As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead."

Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognized as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.

ClementofA · May 22, 2020

Major1 said:
Hebrews 9:27 ...….

"And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment".
.

nolidad said:
Hebrews 9:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Not a judgment or a chance to undo the error done in life- but THE judgment.

"Mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:13b)

Judgement, not hopelessness. Judgement, not no more chances for salvation. Judgement, not Love Omnipotent's love has expired like a carton of milk. Judgement, not the hand of the Almighty is impotent to save.

"Anyone who knows anything about the Greek of the New Testament (and elsewhere) knows that extraneous articles are used all the time, and that very frequently it’s not at all meaningful. (The converse holds true, too; and it’s the reason why you don’t see John 1:1c translated as “The Word was a god.”)"

"Then in the second part of the verse they *add* a definite article, ‘the’ in front of the word ‘judgement’. Why is this done? It isn’t hard to imagine that it is done to scare people into submission by convincing them it must be done before they die and it is too late."

"Looking at the most popular English translations, only KJV has “the judgment,” whereas NRSV, NIV, ESV, NASB, NET et al. don’t."

ClementofA · May 22, 2020

Major1 said:
Because "ALL" will be saved in the end there is then no need to give a tithe to operate a church, or fund any kind of outreach ministry.

There is NO need to witness to the lost people all around them, so then soul winning is obsolete.

Nonsense. Look in the Bible:

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Der Alter said:
Do you agree with Vincent that aidios means everlasting?

I think it was a superior word to use relative to the ambiguous aion & aionios, if God was a believer in endless punishment. Moreover, as opposed to aion and aionios (which are often used of finite duration), God had a number of other words & expressions available that would also have better served to express endless punishment, if Love Omnipotent were a believer of such. But He never uses such of eschatological punishment. So the reasonable conclusion is that Love Omnipotent rejected using such words and expressions of a final destiny of endless punishment because He knew better & He rejected the notion that anyone will endure endless punishment. Those words & expresssions are:

1. no end (Lk.1:33)...this expression is used of God's kingdom having "no end". It is never used of anyone's torments or punishment. We never read of anyone receiving torments that will have "no end". This unambiguous phrase, "no end", would have been a superior choice to the ambiguous words aion & aionion, if Love Omnipotent had a belief in endless torments or annihilation. But He rejected its use in expressing such a fate.

2. endless (1 Tim.1:4)...Again if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments, why didn't He use this word to express it, instead of the ambiguous aion & aionion, which often refer to finite durations in ancient Greek usage?

3. never (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." Mark 9 Benson Commentary

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

4. eternal (Rom.1:16; Jude 1:6)...this word, AIDIOS, is used of God's "eternal" power & "eternal" chains that bind until the day of judgement. It is never used of anyone's final destiny. We never read of anyone being tormented for eternal ages. We never read of anyone suffering eternal (AIDIOS) punishment. If Jude believed in endless punishment, he had the perfect opportunity at Jude 1:6 by simply adding that the angels would suffer the judgement of eternal (AIDIOS) punishment or torments. Instead of warning his readers of such a horrificly monstrous fate, as he should have been morally obligated to do if it were a real possibility, instead he conveys the relatively utterly lame & insignificant info that these angelic beings will be kept in chains until judgement day. OTOH, consider:

"Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he [Jesus] used aionion kolasin..." Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment

"Nyssa defined the vision of God promised there as "life without end, eternal incorruption, undying beatitude [ten ateleuteton zoen, ten aidion aphtharsian , ten athanaton makarioteta]." ("Christianity and Classical Culture: The Metamorphosis of Natural Theology in ..." By Jaroslav Pelikan, p.165 @): Christianity and Classical Culture

5. unfading (1 Pet.1:4; 5:4)...Peter uses this word of an endless inheritance reserved in heaven & a crown of glory. It is never used of the endless pain, punishment or torments that anyone will receive. Can it be denied that this would have been a superior word (over aion & aionios) to use to express such a horrific destiny if Love Omnipotent actually had such in store for anyone? Wouldn't He want to express warnings about it in the clearest ways possible?

6. found no place for repentance (Heb.12:17)...is used in Heb.12:17 of the loss of a finite earthly blessing..."he found no place of repentance, although having earnestly sought it with tears". Never is it used regarding those in Gehenna, Hades, the lake of fire, or eschatological punishment. Never do we read of those cast into any "hell" that they will not (or never) find a place of repentance, even though they earnestly seek it with tears. God was quite capable of expressing such in His Holy Scriptures. But rather than give such a warning, as Love Omnipotent should have if such an unbelievably horrific future awaited anyone, instead we are told of the relatively lame loss of a finite earthly blessing. Such a waste of words if endless punishment were really true.

7. In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Der Alte · May 22, 2020

martymonster said:
What was the Rich man's crime, exactly?

Major1 said:
If you are referring to Luke 16, I would say "Indifference".
He saw Lazarus, he made no inquiry. He never tried to help, or even give him what fell from his table.
Indifference is non-love which is the only command Christ gave us to follow.

I think the rich man committed a specific offense. Lazarus did not even get the crumbs from the rich man's table.

Deuteronomy 15:7-8
7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
8 But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.
Proverbs 21:13
13 Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

agapelove · May 22, 2020

Major1 said:
1 Cor.3:15 does not speak of Universalism.
This passage of scripture refers to what is known as the Bema seat judgment. The Bema seat judgment is where believers will give an account for their works and be judged and rewarded accordingly, which is distinct to the type of judgment rendered at the Great White Throne judgment which separates believers unto salvation from unbelievers unto destruction.

If a believer's works are completely judged as worthless even though they have trusted in Christ for their own salvation, it will be like they have been snatched from a fire - they themselves are safe, but everything they labored for is destroyed and unsalvageable. There will of course be relief at being saved, but also a sense of loss as the things labored for that were held dear by the one being judged are revealed as insubstantial, temporary and not 'built' according to the will of the Master.
Highly Voted Unanswered Questions

Mt.1:21 ...….
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins."

100% True for ALL who choose God.

Joshua 24:15
"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

100% correct.
Matthew 15:24
"He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

We gentiles are now able to be saved because the Jews rejected their Messiah.

Rom.11:26....
Again...the misapplication/understanding of the word "ALL" leads to a false gospel.

"ALL" = Everyone WHO comes to Christ by faith before they die will go to heaven. There are no 2nd chances.

Rev.5:13
100% correct. I do not know why you posted it because there is not one word there to indicate Universal salvation.

Rom 5:18
All men… all men - Paul is using all men with two different meanings for the sake of parallelism, a common practice in the Hebrew Old Testament, which is similar Paul's repetition of the phrase the many in Romans 5:15 (note). The first all covers all humanity who are born into Adam. The second all refers to that part of the first all who by grace through faith are reborn into the Last Adam, Christ (Paul repeatedly emphasizes righteousness and faith - see notes Romans 1:16; 17; 3:22; 3:28; 4:5; 4:13. To reiterate - Paul is not teaching universal salvation.)
Romans 5:18-19 Commentary | Precept Austin

Col.1:16
AGAIN....the misunderstanding or purposefully false teaching leads to erroneous doctrine.

The verse you used in Colossians 1:16 is speaking of universal sovereignty and not universal salvation. Jesus is the King of kings. All authority has been given to him in heaven and on earth. Though all will bow before him, some will bow as his children and others as defeated enemies.
Such will it be on the day of judgment. Some will go to an everlasting heaven (new heavens and new earth), and others to an everlasting hell (Matt. 25:46; Mark 9:44). Universalism - Ephesians 1:10 and Colossians 1:20

1 Cor.15:22

1 Cor.15:28
AGAIN.... the wrong understanding of the word "ALL" leads to error.

The inaccurate teaching that the word "all" in scripture, is "everything, all with no exceptions" is easily defeated in light of scripture.

Carelessness and wanton disregard for scripture is a trademark for false doctrine. Scripture clearly removes any ambiguity and clearly defines groups of nations, groups of believer's versus unbeliever's, groups of the Jews versus the Gentiles, those receiving eternal life versus eternal damnation.

The Universalist by spinning/misappropriating the word "ALL" (among others) is caught in a hopeless paradox that cannot be explained in light of scripture.The Reasons Why Universalism is False

Good day my friend and thanks for the questions you needed clarified.

Sir, I only know of one judgment seat and one judgment day.

It looks like you twist scripture more than anyone here! You Augustinians love to say that ALL does not really mean ALL, or that there is actually a "those who choose God before they die" inserted where there is not. Then you claim salvation actually means sovereignty??? You have the audacity to accuse US of being misinformed or confused when I cannot even follow your train of thought.

"Carelessness and wanton disregard for scripture is a trademark for false doctrine." I take the word of God seriously. When God says all I do question if that is really what he meant.

agapelove · May 22, 2020

Major1 said:
The Universalists false teaching uses the Scriptures you posted to mean the God intends to restore "ALL" things so that in the end EVERYONE will be saved. That is what you are saying.

But that is NOT what the Bible says in Romans 10:13 is it...…….
"Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."

In no way possible does that or can it be thought of as EVERYONE will be saved. Only those who call upon the Lord Jesus will be saved.

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:11

No one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3

Major1 said:
One problem with universalism is that it imposes human judgment upon God, saying that logically he cannot be perfect love while punishing sinners in hell. However, God himself warns against attributing human standards to him.
Why Universalism Is Popular, But Fatally Flawed

Isaiah 55:8-9...……..
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

We know what is good because we are made in His image. To say that God's goodness is different in kind to man's goodness, what is it but saying, with a slight change of phraseology, that God may possibly not be good?

Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

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