KJV Bible verses that may make you scratch your head in wonder

BlessedCreator

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"Westcott and Hort: Translator's Beliefs


EARLY HERESIES STILL WITH US TODAY

niv5.jpg
The Bible warns that there would be those who would corrupt the word of God (2nd Corinthians 2:17) and handle it deceitfully (2nd Corinthians 4:2). There would arise false gospels with false epistles (2nd Thessalonians 2:2), along with false prophets and teachers who would not only bring in damnable heresies but would seek to make merchandise of the true believer through their own feigned words (2nd Peter 2:1-3).

It did not take long for this to occur. In the days of the Apostles, and shortly afterwards, several doctrinal heresies arose. Their early beginnings are referred to in the New Testament in such places as Galatians 1:6-8; 1st John 4:3; 2nd John 1:7; and Jude 1:3-4. They not only plagued the early Church, but are still with us today, in modern form, in many contemporary Christian cults. These false doctrines influenced the transmission of scripture and account for some of the differences in the line of manuscripts.


WESTCOTT AND HORT


Brooke Foss Westcott (1825-1901) and Fenton John Anthony Hort (1828-1892) produced a Greek New Testament in 1881 based on the findings of Tischendorf. This Greek NT was the basis for the Revised Version of that same year. They also developed a theory of textual criticism which underlay their Greek NT and several other Greek NT since (such as the Nestle's text and the United Bible Society's text). Greek New Testaments such as these produced the modern English translations of the Bible we have today. So it is important for us to know the theory of Westcott and Hort as well as something of the two men who have so greatly influenced modern textual criticism.

In short, the Westcott and Hort theory states that the Bible is to be treated as any other book would be.

Westcott and Hort believed the Greek text which underlies the KJV was perverse and corrupt. Hort called the Textus Receptus vile and villainous (Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, Vol. I, p.211).

If Westcott and Hort are the fathers of modern textual criticism and the restorers of the true text, should we not know something of their beliefs to see if they are consistent with Scripture? This would be harmonious with the teaching found in Matthew 7:17.

Here's what Westcott and Hort said about...

The Scriptures:

"I reject the word infallibility of Holy Scriptures overwhelmingly." (Westcott, The Life and Letters of Brook Foss Westcott, Vol. I, p.207).

"Our Bible as well as our Faith is a mere compromise." (Westcott, On the Canon of the New Testament, p. vii).

"Evangelicals seem to me perverted. . .There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, especially the authority of the Bible." (Hort, The Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, Vol. I, p.400)

"Dr. Wilbur Pickering writes that, Hort did not hold to a high view of inspiration." (The Identity of the New Testament Text, p.212)

Perhaps this is why both the RV (which Westcott and Hort helped to translate) and the American edition of it, the ASV, translated 2nd Timothy 3:16 as, "Every scripture inspired of God" instead of "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (KJV).


The Deity of Christ:

"He never speaks of Himself directly as God, but the aim of His revelation was to lead men to see God in Him." (Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John, p. 297).

"(John) does not expressly affirm the identification of the Word with Jesus Christ." (Westcott, Ibid., p. 16).

"(Rev. 3:15) might no doubt bear the Arian meaning, the first thing created." (Hort, Revelation, p.36).

Perhaps this is why their Greek text makes Jesus a created god (John 1:18) and their American translation had a footnote concerning John 9:38, "And he said, Lord I believe and he worshipped him," which said, "The Greek word denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, as here, or to the Creator" (thus calling Christ a creature).


Salvation:

"The thought (of John 10:29) is here traced back to its most absolute form as resting on the essential power of God in His relation of Universal Fatherhood." (Westcott, St. John, p. 159).

"I confess I have no repugnance to the primitive doctrine of a ransom paid to Satan. I can see no other possible form in which the doctrine of a ransom is at all tenable; anything is better than the doctrine of a ransom to the father." (Hort, The First Epistle of St. Peter 1:1-2:17, p. 77).

Perhaps this is why their Greek text adds to salvation in 1st Peter 2:2. And why their English version teaches universal salvation in Titus 2:11, "For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men" (ASV).


Hell:

"(Hell is) not the place of punishment of the guilty, (it is) the common abode of departed spirits." (Westcott, Historic Faith, pp.77-78).

"We have no sure knowledge of future punishment, and the word eternal has a far higher meaning." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p.149).

Perhaps this is why their Greek text does not have Mark 9:44, and their English translation replaces "everlasting fire" [Matthew 18:8] with "eternal fire" and change the meaning of eternal as cited by Hort in the above quote.


Creation:

"No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history. I could never understand how anyone reading them with open eyes could think they did." (Westcott, cited from Which Bible?, p. 191).

"But the book which has most engaged me is Darwin. Whatever may be thought of it, it is a book that one is proud to be contemporary with..... My feeling is strong that the theory is unanswerable." (Hort, cited from Which Bible?, p. 189)


Romanism:


"I wish I could see to what forgotten truth Mariolatry (the worship of the Virgin Mary) bears witness." (Westcott, Ibid. )

"The pure Romanish view seems to be nearer, and more likely to lead to the truth than the Evangelical." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p. 77)

It is one thing to have doctrinal differences on baby-sprinkling and perhaps a few other interpretations. It is another to be a Darwin-believing theologian who rejects the authority of scriptures, Biblical salvation, the reality of hell, and makes Christ a created being to be worshipped with Mary his mother. Yet, these were the views of both Westcott and Hort. No less significant is the fact that both men were members of spiritist societies (the Hermes Club and the Ghostly Guild).

Westcott and Hort talked to Spirits of the dead.

I call it Satanism."
 
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prodromos

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Fair enough. I just searched for that on on the fly. I'm not at my office computer where all of my research is. Let me see if I can give you something that might persuade you to consider what I'm saying tomorrow.
So? Now that you've had the benefit of your research, what is your response? Are you doubling down on your claim or humbly apologising?
Just so you know, it says holy of holies in the Septuagint (in Greek of course), so nothing's changed there.
 
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Radagast

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So? Now that you've had the benefit of your research, what is your response? Are you doubling down on your claim or humbly apologising?
Just so you know, it says holy of holies in the Septuagint (in Greek of course), so nothing's changed there.

I think part of what's been going on is an oral and written Protestant tradition with a certain LXX/Vulgate influence, even in KJVO circles, which trumps the actual words of the KJV.
 
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The Parson

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I just became aware of another change that just floored me. If you won't see it in the verse I'm about to post, you never will. And forgive me for wasting all your time folks.

Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm? (KJV)
 
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prodromos

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I just became aware of another change that just floored me. If you won't see it in the verse I'm about to post, you never will. And forgive me for wasting all your time folks.

Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm? (KJV)
ἔα δέ, ἄνθρωπος σαπρία καὶ υἱὸς ἀνθρώπου σκώληξ.
But alas! man is corruption, and the son of man a worm.

I'm guessing the Hebrew is a bit different
 
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Radagast

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I just became aware of another change that just floored me. If you won't see it in the verse I'm about to post, you never will. And forgive me for wasting all your time folks.

Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm? (KJV)

KJV 1611: How much lesse man, that is a worme: and the sonne of man which is a worme?

NKJV: How much less man, who is a maggot, And a son of man, who is a worm?”

ESV: how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!”

I prefer the NKJV/ESV (it's closer to the Hebrew), but the KJV says what it says. Always has.

The LXX reads a little differently:
ἔα δέ, ἄνθρωπος σαπρία καὶ υἱὸς ἀνθρώπου σκώληξ (But alas! man is corruption, and the son of man a worm).
 
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The Parson

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I just noticed this particular change not 15 minutes ago.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

How I remember the verse is: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness is attainable by the law, then Christ hath died in vain.

I did a quick search and this is what I came up with.
diednotdead1.jpg


I knew I wasn't going nuts.

diednotdead2.jpg
 
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Radagast

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I just noticed this particular change not 15 minutes ago.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

How I remember the verse is: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness is attainable by the law, then Christ hath died in vain.

ESV: I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

KJV 1611: I doe not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousnes come by the Lawe, then Christ is dead in vaine.

Noah Webster's 1833 revision of the KJV: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness is attainable by the law, then Christ hath died in vain.

And yes, Webster is exactly what your search found: Webster's Revision - Wikipedia

Possible explanation of the strangeness: perhaps your father and grandfather brought you up on Webster, not on the standard KJV at all. Perhaps Webster is what you remember.


Let's check another verse:

Matthew 6:10 (Webster): Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Yes, that's what you remembered.
 
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Radagast

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No, not the Webster. And even if it was, I never owned one myself.

What I mean is, if your father and grandfather used Webster (or something else from that time period), perhaps you "heard their voices" in your head when you read the KJV, and skipped over what the printed words actually say.

I have a similar issue: I stopped using the KJV as a teenager, but it's still what I "hear in my head" half the time.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Because you're reading from the westcott and hort greek NT are you not? Which is known be corrupted

Why would we need to use translations or texts from Western scholars? You do understand that we are GREEK, as in GREEK NT. As Prodromos said, the Greek church's official Bible is the 1904 Ecumenical Patriarchal text. Our services are still conducted in Byzantine Greek and readings are in Koine Greek. Heck even our music uses a tonal system that dates back to the 5th century BC. As Gus from My Big Fat Greek Wedding puts it, "When my people were developing philosophy your people were still swinging from trees.”

(I'm not ordinarily like this but it's Friday after another long week in the hospital, TGIF
Δόξα τω Θεώ Είναι Παρασκευή, Glory to God it's Friday :) )
 
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Radagast

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Why would we need to use translations or texts from Western scholars? You do understand that we are GREEK, as in GREEK NT.

Every Christian should probably be forced to attend one Greek service, just to underline the fact that you exist. :)

As Prodromos said, the Greek church's official Bible is the 1904 Ecumenical Patriarchal text.

That's certainly not the same as the text modern Protestants use, but it's not quite the "Textus Receptus" of Erasmus either.

"When my people were developing philosophy your people were still swinging from trees.”

And loving it. :)
 
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The Parson

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Friday after another long week in the hospital
Everything OK with you friend?
What I mean is, if your father and grandfather used Webster (or something else from that time period), perhaps you "heard their voices" in your head when you read the KJV, and skipped over what the printed words actually say.

I have a similar issue: I stopped using the KJV as a teenager, but it's still what I "hear in my head" half the time.
I see your logic. I really do, but those gentlemen wouldn't have used the Webster. The last I remember Grandpa having was a Thompson. My dad owned a Nelson. Both as you know are KJV.
 
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