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The belief in universalism does not send people to "hell", even if it were not true.
Many people reject God because of the endless tortures view.
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THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!
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The belief in universalism does not send people to "hell", even if it were not true.
Many people reject God because of the endless tortures view.
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XYZ said:
It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:
1 Cor 6:9-11
"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
As a commentator says:
"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"
"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."
So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.
Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
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Right, but that doesn't change the fact that the unrighteous Will Not Inherit the Kingdom of God.
It's Not Happening. Even after "a certain amount of time" It's Not going happen.
.
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Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him;
but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, It Will Not Be Forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
• Matthew 12:32
.
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Irrelevant. I showed that that verse fails as a "proof text" against Biblical Universalism.
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help
213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers
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But there is at least one age beyond those two ages when they can be forgiven & saved:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (Eph.2:7)
Spirit blasphemy in harmony with universal salvation:
the penalty for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...
Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin
http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...ves-holy-spirit-blasphemers.html#post53259200
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Universalism is for people who don't want to repent from their sins or take responsibility and be held accountable for their actions.
And they don't want anyone else to either.
.
And they don't want anyone else to either.
.
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Oh? Like the Early Church Father Universalists, including Origen who died of being tortured for his faith in Christ the Saviour of all?
"Moreover, he was not only a man of extraordinary personal holiness, piety, and charity, but a martyr as well: Brutally tortured during the Decian persecution at the age of sixty-six, he never recovered, but slowly withered away over a period of three years. He was, in short, among the greatest of the Church Fathers and the most illustrious of the saints, and yet, disgracefully, official church tradition—East and West—commemorates him as neither."
Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart
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"THE CHRIST, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD." (John 4:42)
Christ is the Savior of the world. The larger hope simply asserts, Christ will, in fact, save the world.
"(HE) WHICH GIVES LIFE UNTO THE WORLD" (John 6:33)
The world (cosmos) is in Scripture the ungodly mass.
It is contrasted with the inner circle of the faithful, the elect.
This world is over and over again claimed by Christ. He gives life to it, and His gifts are "without repentance."
Christ is the Savior of the world. The larger hope simply asserts, Christ will, in fact, save the world.
"(HE) WHICH GIVES LIFE UNTO THE WORLD" (John 6:33)
The world (cosmos) is in Scripture the ungodly mass.
It is contrasted with the inner circle of the faithful, the elect.
This world is over and over again claimed by Christ. He gives life to it, and His gifts are "without repentance."
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The Song Of Creation
"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy" Job 38:7
A GLAD SONG.
This highly poetic picture describes the joy of creation. When the world was made God saw that it was good (Genesis 1:10). There is no Manichaean pessimism in the Bible. Nature is full of gladness. This we should expect when we know the character of God, for he whose name is love must take pleasure in the joy of his creatures. We may see the same truth in the construction of the world. It is beautiful, and made to minister to the happiness of the myriads of living creatures that inhabit it. We may find it hard to catch the echoes of the song of creation, yet even amid the toils and cares of life it is cheering to be reminded of its rare and ravishing melody.
A SONG OF PRAISE.
This was more than gladness. The Creator's glory is celebrated in the joyful recognition of the greatness and beauty of his works. Nature-worship always tends to grovel in the mire, twining itself most closely about the lowest thing in nature. Wordsworth was a prophet of nature of the highest order, because he saw more than nature, and because he took nature as a mirror of the spiritual world. The glad praises of the sons of the morning begin the history of the world with a hymn to God.
A HOPEFUL SONG.
It was sung by morning stars, in view of the new day of creation. It sprang out of the fresh youth of the world. We praise God for what he has done since that first psalm was sung. Yet we too can sing in hope, for God still lights up the future with glory. There is always something melancholy in a song of memory. The right attitude of the sons of God is the forward gaze.
A HARMONIOUS SONG.
The morning stars sang together. Plato discovered the music of the spheres in their rhythmic movements. There is no music in war, confusion, or selfishness. The joy of heaven is the gladness of love. Sympathy tunes the sweetest music the heart can utter. If we would emulate the joyous praises of the angels, we must follow their willing obedience, and live in that heavenly atmosphere of love which is their home.
AN ANCIENT SONG.
Vastly more ancient than any one imagined in the days of Job. The brain grows dizzy in the vain attempt to form some idea of the immeasurable antiquity that is opened up to us by the wonderful story of geology. Before all that came the first song of creation. This thought dwarfs the life of man. Job had considered of the brevity of life from another point of view, and with regard to the melancholy prospect of its termination. Now he is to look back and see how recent was his origin. This was to check dogmatic assumptions. How can the creature of a day enter into the age-long counsels of God?
AS ETERNAL SONG.
The far-off antiquity was joyous in the light and love of God. But the Divine light and love have not laded out of the world. God is still creating. Every fresh spring is a new birth from God, every day has its dawning, every child its gladsome youth. The theory of evolution suggests even more joyous creations in the future. But better than them all is the second creation, the regeneration of souls, for which there is joy in the presence of the angels of God (Luke 15:10). The joy of creation is the angels' joy; that of redemption is "in the presence of the angels." For this greater joy does not first arise in them; it springs from the very heart of God. -W.F. Adeney-
"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy" Job 38:7
A GLAD SONG.
This highly poetic picture describes the joy of creation. When the world was made God saw that it was good (Genesis 1:10). There is no Manichaean pessimism in the Bible. Nature is full of gladness. This we should expect when we know the character of God, for he whose name is love must take pleasure in the joy of his creatures. We may see the same truth in the construction of the world. It is beautiful, and made to minister to the happiness of the myriads of living creatures that inhabit it. We may find it hard to catch the echoes of the song of creation, yet even amid the toils and cares of life it is cheering to be reminded of its rare and ravishing melody.
A SONG OF PRAISE.
This was more than gladness. The Creator's glory is celebrated in the joyful recognition of the greatness and beauty of his works. Nature-worship always tends to grovel in the mire, twining itself most closely about the lowest thing in nature. Wordsworth was a prophet of nature of the highest order, because he saw more than nature, and because he took nature as a mirror of the spiritual world. The glad praises of the sons of the morning begin the history of the world with a hymn to God.
A HOPEFUL SONG.
It was sung by morning stars, in view of the new day of creation. It sprang out of the fresh youth of the world. We praise God for what he has done since that first psalm was sung. Yet we too can sing in hope, for God still lights up the future with glory. There is always something melancholy in a song of memory. The right attitude of the sons of God is the forward gaze.
A HARMONIOUS SONG.
The morning stars sang together. Plato discovered the music of the spheres in their rhythmic movements. There is no music in war, confusion, or selfishness. The joy of heaven is the gladness of love. Sympathy tunes the sweetest music the heart can utter. If we would emulate the joyous praises of the angels, we must follow their willing obedience, and live in that heavenly atmosphere of love which is their home.
AN ANCIENT SONG.
Vastly more ancient than any one imagined in the days of Job. The brain grows dizzy in the vain attempt to form some idea of the immeasurable antiquity that is opened up to us by the wonderful story of geology. Before all that came the first song of creation. This thought dwarfs the life of man. Job had considered of the brevity of life from another point of view, and with regard to the melancholy prospect of its termination. Now he is to look back and see how recent was his origin. This was to check dogmatic assumptions. How can the creature of a day enter into the age-long counsels of God?
AS ETERNAL SONG.
The far-off antiquity was joyous in the light and love of God. But the Divine light and love have not laded out of the world. God is still creating. Every fresh spring is a new birth from God, every day has its dawning, every child its gladsome youth. The theory of evolution suggests even more joyous creations in the future. But better than them all is the second creation, the regeneration of souls, for which there is joy in the presence of the angels of God (Luke 15:10). The joy of creation is the angels' joy; that of redemption is "in the presence of the angels." For this greater joy does not first arise in them; it springs from the very heart of God. -W.F. Adeney-
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a-lily-of-peace
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On the following day, when the people who were standing on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other boat there, except that one which His disciples had entered, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with His disciples, but His disciples had gone away alone— however, other boats came from Tiberias, near the place where they ate bread after the Lord had given thanks— when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You come here?”
Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written,‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ”
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
(John 6:22-40, NKJV)
Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written,‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ”
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
(John 6:22-40, NKJV)
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Hi there Lily: The words of the Christ are so powerful. He declares He will draw all mankind unto Himself. He refuses to lose one morself of fish and bread that it might not be apollumi. His glorious Name is Iesous for a reason. He IS Saviour.
Not all see Him yet. In fact a small miniscule portion of the broken wrecks of Adam1 have seen Him at all, nor heard those life changing words....."Follow Me & I will make.."
"ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME SHALL COME TO ME; * * AND THIS IS THE FATHER'S WILL * * THAT OF ALL WHICH HE HAS GIVEN ME * * I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING." (John 6:37)
God the Father, our Abba, has given to Christ all things, not some things, but all things; here we have the promise of Jesus Christ, that all that has been given to Him shall come to Him, and that nothing shall be lost (John 6:12)
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but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit NEVER Has Forgiveness, but is subject To Eternal Condemnation"--
• Mark 3:29
.
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More literal translations say:
28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming,
29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-"
30 for they said, "An unclean spirit has he." (Mark 3, CLV)
Young's Literal Translation
29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'
29 But, whosoever shall revile against the Holy Spirit, hath no forgiveness, unto times age-abiding,—but is guilty of an age-abiding sin: (Rotherham)
29 who but ever may speak evil to the spirit the holy, not has forgiveness to the age, but liable is of age-lasting judgment. Mark 3 And he entered again into the synagogue; and was there man having been withered having the hand,
The Greek word for "forgiven" has a number of different meanings. It is used of Satan in regards to Jesus in Matthew 4:11. If you translate it as "forgive" there then you get a reading of "the devil did FORGIVE Him".
Here are various meanings given for the Greek word, APHIEMI (Strongs #863):
"Usage: (a) I send away, (b) I let go, release, permit to depart, (c) I remit, forgive, (d) I permit, suffer." Strong's Greek: 863. ἀφίημι (aphiémi) -- to send away, leave alone, permit
Remit: "to cancel or refrain from inflicting // remit the penalty"
Definition of REMIT
Remit: "cancel or refrain from exacting or inflicting (a debt or punishment)."
"An example of remit is to pardon someone..."
So according to Luke 12:10 there is one sin for which a person won't be "let go" or "released" or "remitted", "pardoned", etc.. What he will not be "let go" of, or not "released" from, or not "remitted" or "pardoned" of, is not stated in Lk.12:10.
Therefore to conclude that such a sin will result in never ending punishment & the person can never be saved is to read something into the verse which is not stated. Consequently Lk.12:10 fails as a "proof text" against Biblical universalism. It's just that simple.
XYZ said:
Perhaps you meant Matthew. But Matthew 12:31-32 does not use the Greek word for "world", which is KOSMOS, but a form of the Greek word AION, meaning "age" or eon".
Those who commit the sin of Spirit blasphemy won't be "let off" or "released" or "remitted" from the due penalty or consequence for that sin. That consequence is what I detailed in my previous post to you, namely a "death" that sends people to "hell" until they are saved. That penalty or consequence for Spirit blasphemy will not only apply in this "age" but also in the millennial age to come:
Isa.65:20 Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a
mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.
XYZ said:
Lk.12:10 & Mt.12:31-32 say nothing about anyone "pay[ing] for this sin". The verse isn't talking about being "forgiven" for this sin, but of a person who commits the sin not being "let go" or "released", which implies some consequences or penalty. What those consequences are, or what that penalty is, is not stated.
As my previous post showed, certain blasphemers in the Scriptures suffered death, either by stoning, or by other means. Whether or not they could ever be "forgiven" by God is not stated. But they were not to be "pardoned" or "let go" or "released" from the consequences or penalty which was required, e.g. being stoned to death.
We shouldn't ignore the Biblical context & references to blasphemy & the consequence of death when interpreting Jesus' words in Lk.12:10. He was speaking to Jews whose Scriptures were the Old Testament.
"When Jesus speaks of pardoning or forgiving a sin, he has in mind something utterly different from an attitude of forgiveness, which in God never ceases; he has in mind instead a release from some obligation, or a canceling of some debt, or a setting aside of some prescribed punishment. It is very close to our idea of forgiving a debt or pardoning a criminal. If a debt is unforgiven, then it must be paid; and once it is paid, it no longer exists. Similarly, if a criminal is unpardoned, then the criminal must serve his or her sentence; and once the sentence is served, there is no longer any need for a pardon. An unforgivable or unpardonable sin, therefore, need not be an uncorrectable sin at all; it is simply one that God cannot deal with adequately in the absence of an appropriate punishment."
"...when Jesus speaks of forgiveness in the present context, he has in mind, as we noted above, the canceling of some obligation, debt, or prescribed punishment."
Tom Talbott
Just what does it mean to say that God will never forgive or pardon a given sin
For further reading on this topic:
the penalty for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...
Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin
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Wycliffe Bible
But he that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost, Hath Not Remission Into Without End, but he shall be guilty of everlasting trespass.
• Mark 3:29
Douay-Rheims
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, Shall Never Have Forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin.
• Mark 3:29
.
But he that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost, Hath Not Remission Into Without End, but he shall be guilty of everlasting trespass.
• Mark 3:29
Douay-Rheims
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, Shall Never Have Forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin.
• Mark 3:29
.
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a-lily-of-peace
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And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
(Hebrews 9:27-28, NKJV)
Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
(Luke 21:27-28, NKJV)
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
(John 5:28-30, NKJV)
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:16-18, NKJV)
The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
(John 3:35-36, NKJV)
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The judgements of God our Father are real. No fallen creature can avoid Him (thank God). The entire judgements of Abba are for one purpose, and one purpose ONLY, to set right what is wrong. It is known as at-one-ment or rectitude, & yes restitution.
For the elect first fruits this process begins in the present ongoing NOW, or the progressive present tense. The process is intense, leading to new creatures after His image, nature & character.
For the lost and broken wrecks of sin (the vast majority), this meeting of dust & Divinity must & will happen. This happening is in the dispensation of the fulness of times declared by St. Paul in Eph. 1.
It is good to see you again Lily.
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"The grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."
"MY FLESH, WHICH I WILL GIVE FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD." ( John 6:51)
It is the world for whose life Christ gives His flesh.
Can He give in vain?
His gifts are "without repentance".
It must be finally effective, though they may be resisted.
"THEN SPOKE JESUS * * I AM THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD." (John 8:12)
The world, (the whole ungodly world), is that of which Christ is the Light as well as the Life.
"MY FLESH, WHICH I WILL GIVE FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD." ( John 6:51)
It is the world for whose life Christ gives His flesh.
Can He give in vain?
His gifts are "without repentance".
It must be finally effective, though they may be resisted.
"THEN SPOKE JESUS * * I AM THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD." (John 8:12)
The world, (the whole ungodly world), is that of which Christ is the Light as well as the Life.
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a-lily-of-peace
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But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
(1 Corinthians 15:23, NKJV)
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”
(John 20:17, NKJV)
And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When you come into the land which I give to you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. He shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.
(Leviticus 23:9-11, NKJV)
It’s good to see you too.
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