The easiest part of the Sabbath topic where scholarship on BOTH sides agree

"Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." Mark 2:27

What is it about this verse that you don't (or won't) understand?

The Fourth Commandment in Exodus 34:21 “Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest. In plowing time and in harvest you shall rest.” Notice that God says “Six days you shall work” signifying that mankind is commanded to work for six days before being commanded to rest; therefore both work and rest are commanded and by His doing so, He gives us a pattern or an example of which we are to follow.

Creation and the designation for a week were both complete and finished in seven days which indicates that seven is a number of completion or a finished work. God’s use of the number seven elsewhere in Scripture frequently has meaning and purpose.

Other Significances in Seven

• No animal could be sacrificed until it was seven days old (Ex 22:30).
• There were seven “I AM’s” in the Gospel of John that Jesus used when He spoke of Himself.
• The Lord would discipline Israel up to sevenfold (up to seven times) if they refused to obey Him (Lev 26:18).
• Jesus mentions seven woes (or judgments) on the unrepentant in Matthew 23.
• Jesus also mentions seven parables in Matthew 13.
• There were seven letters to the seven churches in the Book of Revelation (2, 3).
• There were also seven trumpets announcing judgments by God in the Book of Revelation (8).
• There were seven signs given in the Gospel of John.
• There were seven pairs of clean animals that were received into the Ark (Gen 7:2).
• Joshua and Israel marched around Jericho seven times while seven priests blew seven trumpets before the walls came crashing down (Joshua 6:3-4).
• Elisha told the military commander Naaman to bathe in the Jordan River seven times and he would be healed of his leprosy (2 Kings 5:10).
• There were seven qualities or attributes of the Messiah mentioned in Isaiah 11:2.
• There are seven things that the Lord hates mentioned in Proverbs 6:16.
• There were seven stems on the lampstand in the tabernacle (Ex 25:37).
• There were seven angels pouring out seven bowls of the wrath of God in the Book of Revelation (16:1).

Why so many references to the number 7? Completion in relationship to His 7th day Sabbath He created for man and we are to honor His 7th day of creating everything and recognize He is the one who sanctifies (makes Holy).

as stated ...

Genesis 2:3

Berean Study Bible
Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it (made holy) because on that day He rested from all the work of creation that He had accomplished.

sanctified - part of the salvation experience ... if we remain in Him ... we are being made holy through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Philippians 1:6

Berean Study Bible
being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

The Lord's 7th day Sabbath symbolizes many things we are to be reminded about.

We are reminded ... He is the creator of everything
We are reminded ... *He is the one who sanctifies us.
We are reminded ... to rest in knowing He is the creator & the one who sanctifies us.
We are reminded ... the anti-christ will think to change times & law (but can't because God created the 7th day - created and can't be changed) and thereby showing himself as a complete imposter.

* Leviticus 20:8
Berean Study Bible
And you shall keep My statutes and practice them. I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

Exodus 31:13
"Tell the Israelites, 'Surely you must observe My Sabbaths, for this will be a sign between Me and you for the generations to come, so that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

and we know sanctification is not just for the Jews only.

the 7th day Sabbath of the Lord reminds us of many important things.

How do you explain the previous verse in Exodus?

“The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.

No one is to appear before me empty-handed."

Have you followed this command also? Have you redeemed the firstborn donkey with a lamb, or broken its neck? Have you redeemed your firstborn son? Have you appeared before the Lord empty-handed?

We Christians are not under the Old Covenant, any of it. We are not subject to the Law; we have been entirely redeemed by Jesus Christ.

pescador said:

How do you explain the previous verse in Exodus?

“The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.

No one is to appear before me empty-handed."

Have you followed this command also? Have you redeemed the firstborn donkey with a lamb, or broken its neck? Have you redeemed your firstborn son? Have you appeared before the Lord empty-handed?

We Christians are not under the Old Covenant, any of it. We are not subject to the Law; we have been entirely redeemed by Jesus Christ.

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What version of the Bible are you using for I don't find that verse in Exodus 20 anywhere in mine. I don't find it recorded anywhere as being written on the tables of stone so it isn't a part of God's moral law. It's a part of the ceremonial laws. You're conflating the 10 commandments with the ceremonial laws. They are not the same set of laws.

Gary K said:

What version of the Bible are you using for I don't find that verse in Exodus 20 anywhere in mine. I don't find it recorded anywhere as being written on the tables of stone so it isn't a part of God's moral law. It's a part of the ceremonial laws. You're conflating the 10 commandments with the ceremonial laws. They are not the same set of laws.

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It's not in Exodus 20 it's in Exodus 13, 11-13: " “After the Lord brings you into the land of the Canaanites and gives it to you, as he promised on oath to you and your ancestors, you are to give over to the Lord the first offspring of every womb. All the firstborn males of your livestock belong to the Lord. Redeem with a lamb every firstborn donkey, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem every firstborn among your sons." (NIV)

Here is Exodus 13:1, "The Lord said to Moses, “Consecrate to me every firstborn male. The first offspring of every womb among the Israelites belongs to me, whether human or animal.”

This is God giving a command to Moses; that's good enough for me. Even if it's not in the 10 commandments, it is still a commandment from God. It's not ceremonial; it's real.

pescador said:

It's not in Exodus 20 it's in Exodus 13, 11-13: " “After the Lord brings you into the land of the Canaanites and gives it to you, as he promised on oath to you and your ancestors, you are to give over to the Lord the first offspring of every womb. All the firstborn males of your livestock belong to the Lord. Redeem with a lamb every firstborn donkey, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem every firstborn among your sons." (NIV)

Here is Exodus 13:1, "The Lord said to Moses, “Consecrate to me every firstborn male. The first offspring of every womb among the Israelites belongs to me, whether human or animal.”

This is God giving a command to Moses; that's good enough for me. Even if it's not in the 10 commandments, it is still a commandment from God. It's not ceremonial; it's real.

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Thank you for confirming what I said. That command was not a part of the 10 commandments which are first found in Exodus 20:12-20. That entire law was written by God Himself on two tables of stone and stored inside the ark of the covenant beneath the mercy seat.

Now show where that law was stored within the ark of the covenant alongside the 10 commandments of which the 4th commandment is an integral part. If you can do that you can show that that law is the equivalent of the 10 commandments. If you cannot, it demonstrates that you are conflating two sets of laws for the storage placement of the two tables of stone signifies that the 10 commandments are a different set of laws.

I see you don't understand the word ceremonial. Just because something is ceremonial doesn't mean it isn't real.

The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
Ceremonial Cer`e*mo"ni*al, n.
1. A system of rules and ceremonies, enjoined by law, or
established by custom, in religious worship, social
intercourse, or the courts of princes; outward form.
[1913 Webster]

The gorgeous ceremonial of the Burgundian court.
--Prescott.
[1913 Webster]

2. The order for rites and forms in the Roman Catholic
church, or the book containing the rules prescribed to be
observed on solemn occasions.
[1913 Webster]

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It seems you like to pretend that Exodus 13 is in no way related to Exodus 12, but it is a continuation of the same train of thought. Therefore it is an attempt by you at isolating Exodus 13:1 from it's context. Bad move for context is always king.

The Sabbath is not related to that law, for the Sabbath was given on the seventh day of creation. Jesus said it was not made for the Jews, it was made for man. In other words, the Sabbath was given to all of mankind thousands of years before a people known as Hebrews ever existed. They did not come into existence until several generations after the flood. Eber, the father of the Hebrews ,was the great great grandson of Noah. So the sons of Eber were the 6th generation after Noah. And they did not become God's chosen until Abraham's day. Only then was the promise given.

Notice what God said about Abraham.

Genesis 25:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

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Abraham already knew of God's law before Jacob was even born or had his name changed to Israel. The definition of sin is transgression of the law therefore God's law, the 10 commandments, were known long before the COI were ever born. Therefore the ceremonial laws given to the Isrealites could not be part of God's eternal law of which the Sabbath is front and center.

Exodus 31:12 ¶And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.*n4
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
18 ¶And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

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And what did Paul quote to the NT Christians?

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

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Now, before you go telling me that this was said to Jews only let's allow Paul to define who is a real Jew.

Romans 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, andnot in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

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What law was Paul referring to? The 10 commandments. And what else did Paul say about circumcision?

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

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What are sins? The transgression of God's moral law, the 10 commandments. Now remember Paul is speaking to a group of Gentiles. He said in Romans 2 that the real Jew is someone who has experienced heart circumcision and here he is telling the gentile church in Colossia that they are the real Jews because they have received the heart circumcision promised to the children of Isreal back in the OT.

Dueteronomy 31:6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

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And what does the circumcision of the heart symbolize? The keeping of the law of God. And what is the quickening of Colossians 2:13? Paul tells us that in Galatians 5.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

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Paul tells us here that the fruit of the Spirit is such that it violates no law, not even God's law, the 10 commandments. And who is it that sanctifies us and why?

Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.
.......
20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God.

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I see no mention of Exodus 13 in any of this. I see only the law of God, the 10 commandments.

That's a lot of Sophistry.

The law is not just the Ten Commandments. It is Torah. Here is the dictionary for your edification. "The term Torah is also used to designate the entire Hebrew Bible. Since for some Jews the laws and customs passed down through oral traditions are part and parcel of God's revelation to Moses and constitute the “oral Torah,” Torah is also understood to include both the Oral Law and the Written Law. When "the law" is referenced in the New Testament, it means exactly that.

The torah has 613 commandments, which include "positive commandments", to perform an act (mitzvot aseh), and "negative commandments", to abstain from certain acts (mitzvot lo taaseh). ... Mishpatim ("laws") include commandments that are deemed to be self-evident, such as not to murder and not to steal.".

Nowhere in the Bible is there a distinction between "moral law" and "ceremonial law"; those are just non-Biblical terms to artificially separate the Ten Commandments from the rest of Torah.

pescador said:

That's a lot of Sophistry.

The law is not just the Ten Commandments. It is Torah. Here is the dictionary for your edification. "The term Torah is also used to designate the entire Hebrew Bible. Since for some Jews the laws and customs passed down through oral traditions are part and parcel of God's revelation to Moses and constitute the “oral Torah,” Torah is also understood to include both the Oral Law and the Written Law. When "the law" is referenced in the New Testament, it means exactly that.

The torah has 613 commandments, which include "positive commandments", to perform an act (mitzvot aseh), and "negative commandments", to abstain from certain acts (mitzvot lo taaseh). ... Mishpatim ("laws") include commandments that are deemed to be self-evident, such as not to murder and not to steal.".

Nowhere in the Bible is there a distinction between "moral law" and "ceremonial law"; those are just non-Biblical terms to artificially separate the Ten Commandments from the rest of Torah.

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In other words you cannot refute the textual evidence or other wise you would have.

The Talmud is not the word of God. Who cares how some Jews see it? Are they wholly mistake free in their history, or have they been guilty many times of rebellion against God? That you would reason that the Jew's reasoning is the word of God is very odd. Just how do you explain their attitude towards Jesus and the apostles? Why did they stone Stephen and attempt to kill Paul if what they do is nothing but God's will? Why did the Jews condemn Jesus to death if they so loved God and they were following His will?

Let's look at your assertion of the Oral law being the equivalent of the Bible. Let's look at Acts 10. Peter is given dream and told to eat unclean meats. He says no. And then he is told in his dream by God that whatsoever God says is clean is clean and immediately Cornelius' servants knock on the door and ask for him. God tells him to go with them nothing doubting. Peter's belief that he was to have nothing to do with a Gentile comes directly from the Talmud, the Oral law. Now was the Oral law true and in agreement with the Torah?

Genesis 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

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Exodus 22:21 ¶Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

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Exodus 23:9 ¶Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

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Leviticus 19:10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the Lord your God.

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Leviticus 19:33 ¶And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

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Leviticus 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

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Leviticus 25:6 And the sabbath of the land shall be meat for you; for thee, and for thy servant, and for thy maid, and for thy hired servant, and for thy stranger that sojourneth with thee,

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Leviticus 25:35 ¶And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

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Well, that ought to be enough to establish that the Oral law's injunctions about oppressing and despising the Gentiles is not in harmony with the Torah. In fact the Talmud completely rejects what God said. And to claim that the Talmud is to be seen as sacred is rather foolish. Peter had been brought up as a child to regard the Oral law as sacred and had to be given a specific dream and circumstances that what the Talmud taught was not God's will in the matter. The entire 10th chapter of Acts is about this lesson. And Paul taught exactly the same thing. There is no difference in God's eyes. He is no respecter of persons.

God's injunctions from the Old Testament taught that the Isrealite was to love the stranger as himself and to support, feed, and allow the stranger to live with him when the stranger was overtaken with poverty. And the stranger was to become as one born to Israel if he followed their laws because he wanted to follow God.

Gary K said:

In other words you cannot refute the textual evidence or other wise you would have.

The Talmud is not the word of God. Who cares how some Jews see it? Are they wholly mistake free in their history, or have they been guilty many times of rebellion against God? That you would reason that the Jew's reasoning is the word of God is very odd. Just how do you explain their attitude towards Jesus and the apostles? Why did they stone Stephen and attempt to kill Paul if what they do is nothing but God's will? Why did the Jews condemn Jesus to death if they so loved God and they were following His will?

Let's look at your assertion of the Oral law being the equivalent of the Bible. Let's look at Acts 10. Peter is given dream and told to eat unclean meats. He says no. And then he is told in his dream by God that whatsoever God says is clean is clean and immediately Cornelius' servants knock on the door and ask for him. God tells him to go with them nothing doubting. Peter's belief that he was to have nothing to do with a Gentile comes directly from the Talmud, the Oral law. Now was the Oral law true and in agreement with the Torah?











Well, that ought to be enough to establish that the Oral law's injunctions about oppressing and despising the Gentiles is not in harmony with the Torah. In fact the Talmud completely rejects what God said. And to claim that the Talmud is to be seen as sacred is rather foolish. Peter had been brought up as a child to regard the Oral law as sacred and had to be given a specific dream and circumstances that what the Talmud taught was not God's will in the matter. The entire 10th chapter of Acts is about this lesson. And Paul taught exactly the same thing. There is no difference in God's eyes. He is no respecter of persons.

God's injunctions from the Old Testament taught that the Isrealite was to love the stranger as himself and to support, feed, and allow the stranger to live with him when the stranger was overtaken with poverty. And the stranger was to become as one born to Israel if he followed their laws because he wanted to follow God.

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This is a fine example of anti-Semitism. I will not discuss this with you any further except to remind you that Jesus, Matthew, Mark, John, Peter, John, Paul and all believers up to the time of Corelius were Jews.

Beware how you judge God's chosen people.

pescador said:

"Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." Mark 2:27

What is it about this verse that you don't (or won't) understand?

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A passage you might want to read is Exodus 16. This took place before God wrote the 10 commandments. When the people from Israel were in the wilderness and God provided food for them. Read from 16:22 on to get the whole message. On verse 16:28 the Lord says to Moses "How long do you refuse to keep my commandments and my laws." 16:29 For the Lord has given you the Sabbath 16:30 So the people rested on the Sabbath

In the beginning God blessed the Sabbath (7th day). Throughout the bible it demonstrates people keeping the Sabbath.

God said if you love me keep my commandments. I don't think he meant 9 of the 10 and the only Commandment starting with Remember is the one He is asking you to forget.

pescador said:

This is a fine example of anti-Semitism. I will not discuss this with you any further except to remind you that Jesus, Matthew, Mark, John, Peter, John, Paul and all believers up to the time of Corelius were Jews.

Beware how you judge God's chosen people.

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First, your statement on Cornelius being the first Gentile to believe is false. Have you not read the Old Testament? One of Jesus' ancestors was Gentile/stranger. I guess you've never read the book of Ruth, a Moabitess and daughter-in-law of Naomi, in which she married Boaz and so married into the line of both king David and Jesus. There are other stories in the OT in which Gentiles/strangers became worshipers of the God of Israel. How about stories in the NT that preceded Cornelius? How about the woman of Canaan, who was most likely a resident of either Tyre or Sidon, who Jesus said had great faith in Him? Matthew 15:22-28. How about the Roman centurion who came to Jesus and asked Him to heal the centurion's servant? Jesus said He hadn't seen that kind of faith in all of Israel. Luke 7:2-10 And God made plentiful provisions in the laws given to Moses for the inclusion of Gentiles/strangers to join in His worship and that the Israelites were to treat the stranger as their brother. Isaiah told us that God's house was to be a house of prayer for all people. How about Noah, Methuselah, Enoch? They were not worshipers of God? They weren't Jews either. They lived long before Eber, the father of the Hebrew race.

So reality is anti-semitetism.... So the Jews didn't crucify Jesus? So they followed the teachings of the OT exactly? How are the Mishna and Gemmara, which make up the Talmud, inspired writings? How are they the equal of the Torah? Did God tell them to write those books?

Apparently you think the entire Jewish race is inspired by God and thus incapable of error, divine in nature. As far as I'm concerned they are no different than I am. They have made no bigger mistakes than we the Gentiles have.