Is Paul addressing the elect in these passages?

K Watt

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The first passage you quote refers to gentiles not being too full of themselves because God choose them over the unsaved in Israel. It’s stating that it is easy for God to remove or graft unto the tree. The second passage is giving evidence that Christians still have to ability to sin when they are saved and not to fall into the temptations of the flesh and instead heed the Holy Spirit inside of them. The verses have nothing to do with the doctrine of perseverance of the saints. For Jesus is the author and finisher of your faith- Hebrews 12:2

Yes they do. They show that a Christian can fall away by disobedience.

John 15:10 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.
 
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K Watt

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John 10:22
24
Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The sheep don't stop following Him. If they get injured, He nurses them back to health. Remember, He is the Good Shepherd. He doesn't let the wolf (Satan) steal them.


His sheep hear his voice AND follow.

What if you stop following?

John 15:10 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.
 
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K Watt

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I believe so, because how can anyone fall away from the faith if they were not saved to begin with? so, i see this as a warning to the church to persevere in the faith and be saved until the end.

this refutes the unconditional OSAS argument but supports the perseverance of the saints doctrine.


What's the difference between those two doctrines?
 
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K Watt

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Clearly Paul does not want people to use their standing with God as an excuse to sin.

Paul warns of things that may happen (falling away), but he doesn't point out that Christians have already fallen away, only Jews of the OT are examples of falling away.

I think that Paul did not know for certain if we could lose our salvation or not, thus he did not write definitively on this issue.

I disagree:

1 Corinthians 9 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Can't you see for yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you--unless you actually fail the test?

Rom 6:16
Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
 
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K Watt

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Yet, there are fewer and fewer Christians on this planet every year. The truth is obvious, that Christianity is rapidly in decline.

That is not true. The Catholic Church is growing by about 10 million people per year. In Africa alone there are now 135 million Catholics.(about 1.2 billion worldwide)
 
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K Watt

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So while I don't believe in TULIP theology, I do believe we have a God who, after cleaning us up, is pleased to bestow additional grace upon us. He actually wants us to live with him forever, which is mind-blowing when I ponder it.

I agree 100%. God wants all men to be saved. However, he allows us to choose disobedience. He offers us sufficient grace for salvation but some still reject this free gift. Also, to whom much is given, much is expected.
 
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K Watt

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We didn't come to Christ because there was goodness in some of us. He died to save us from our sins. The Father brought some of us to Him. Without faith we aren't unired to Christ and we aren't capable of understanding spiritual things. Jesus said that without Him, we can dio nothing. Paul said that the good he did was by the Holy Spirit. Faith comes from God.

All this is true, but it doesn't change the reality that in order to remain in Christ we must obey his commandments. That we must confess our sins and amend our ways if we drift. We must strive for holiness, not that we will achieve perfect holiness on this earth.
 
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lismore

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I think Paul's warning was meant for someone like you.
Judas was given to Christ by God. He was one of the 12 that Jesus addressed in John 6.

For 'someone like me' I shall give you the answer Simon Peter gave 'To who else can we go, you have the words of eternal life'. A true believer cannot deny Christ, to live is Christ, there is nothing else. The believer has crossed from death to life, out of the icy waters into the life-boat.

But as a former Catholic myself I understand where you're coming from. Your group is riddled with false converts and people who are not saved. People who have never heard the gospel, tribal catholics, people who attend irregularly, who go along out of tradition or because they were baptized as babies but who have little knowledge or interest in the things of God, of course you will have to invent some kind of theology to make sense of these people.

They're never saved to begin with, nor was Judas.
They never had the blessed assurance that salvation in Jesus Christ can give you, salvation by his grace, rather than relying on your own works which cannot save.

God Bless You :)
 
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K Watt

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For 'someone like me' I shall give you the answer Simon Peter gave 'To who else can we go, you have the words of eternal life'. A true believer cannot deny Christ, to live is Christ, there is nothing else. The believer has crossed from death to life, out of the icy waters into the life-boat.

But as a former Catholic myself I understand where you're coming from. Your group is riddled with false converts and people who are not saved. People who have never heard the gospel, tribal catholics, people who attend irregularly, who go along out of tradition or because they were baptized as babies but who have little knowledge or interest in the things of God, of course you will have to invent some kind of theology to make sense of these people.

They're never saved to begin with, nor was Judas.

God Bless You :)


I was born again in a Baptist Church and attended a charismatic non denom for years. I'm a convert to Catholicism.

The truth will set you free! It's a shame you never learned the faith.

How about this:

13The seeds on rocky ground are those who hear the word and receive it with joy, but they have no root. They believe for a season, but in the time of testing, they fall away. 14The seeds that fell among the thorns are those who hear, but as they go on their way, they are choked by the worries, riches, and pleasures of this life, and their fruit does not mature.
 
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Peter J Barban

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I disagree:

1 Corinthians 9 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Can't you see for yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you--unless you actually fail the test?

Rom 6:16
Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Has the NT declared any saved person disqualified for the prize? If not, then it's just a piecemeal theory.
 
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bling

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Yes everyone including Christians are "hell bound if they choose to take the mark. Rev 14:9-10 states If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
"Anyone" means everyone including Christians. That is why Christians are exhorted in v.12 to overcome and keep their faith instead of bowing to pressure to accept the mark" This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
This demonstrates that the sin of accepting the mark is not automatically washed away and those who do so are not merely disciplined but are punished in the lake of fire.
Christians can sin without going to the point of actually "worshipping" a false god (Beast). If a Christian moves so far from God that he/she is worshipping something else, then they are hell pound.
 
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bling

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I agree, but that contradicts the doctrine of Perseverance of the saints.
I do not agree with OSAS but I also do not agree with the idea you move back and forth from being lost and saved with sinning. You have to make the free will choice to give away your birthright.
 
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BobRyan

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Yes, I believe they are addressing the elect. But to balance them, so are these:

And one of my personal favorites:

So while I don't believe in TULIP theology, I do believe we have a God who, after cleaning us up, is pleased to bestow additional grace upon us. He actually wants us to live with him forever, which is mind-blowing when I ponder it.

Agreed. Rejection of OSAS is not a claim that God does not want salvation for mankind .. in fact "He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3

Still.. "He came to His own and His own received Him not" John 1:11
 
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K Watt

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Has the NT declared any saved person disqualified for the prize? If not, then it's just a piecemeal theory.

Yes.

2 Peter 2:20
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains

John 15:5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he should ask God, who will give life to those who commit this kind of sin. There is a sin that leads to death; I am not saying he should ask regarding that sin.

James 5
19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone on account of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

2 Tim 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
 
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K Watt

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I do not agree with OSAS but I also do not agree with the idea you move back and forth from being lost and saved with sinning. You have to make the free will choice to give away your birthright.

Do you believe God would forgive us 70 x 7 times?

I do.
 
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Peter J Barban

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Yes.

2 Peter 2:20
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he should ask God, who will give life to those who commit this kind of sin. There is a sin that leads to death; I am not saying he should ask regarding that sin.

James 5
19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone on account of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

2 Tim 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
Sadly, you are just rehashing old theories and excluding contrary evidence.

There is no one in the NT who was declared to be saved and then declared to lose their salvation. Neither was any individual given a free pass to sin all they want.

The NT did not clarify this issue, otherwise, people of good faith would find agreement. This is probably because Paul and others weren't sure. After all, they neither knew everything about salvation, nor did they told us all they knew.
 
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com7fy8

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Just look at the number of churches shutting down and how many churches, are being built in new developments.
Like I already offered, I don't go by how this world makes things look. Failure does not represent God or Biblical Christianity. And Jesus says many will be deceived. Many will come in His name, but be deceivers.

This is a basic trick, by the way > how people get convinced how they have trusted in Jesus or otherwise have become Christians . . . by some means which does not work . . . so then they are sure to fail, and then suppose they've lost their chance to be saved.

There are false ways of Christianity. And people discover how they don't work; so they leave, actually supposing they have left the real Jesus, with whom they were not becoming stable in God's love.

So, do you trust God to make sure you always will be able to lose your salvation? Or, is it wise to trust Him to truly correct us so what happens depends on Him, and not what is sure to happen if He leaves us in our own human ability . . . like happened to Adam and Eve who were perfectly created humans, but not like Jesus who cannot sin?

If we become like Jesus, Jesus is perfectly able to love God without being able to sin. So, what is wrong with becoming incapable of sinning?? There are people who say we have to be capable of sinning, so we can glorify God by choosing freely to love him, but Jesus loves our Father just fine, though He is incapable of choosing to sin.

And 1 John 4:17 says "as He is, so are we in this world," because of how God's love has changed us.
 
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K Watt

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Sadly, you are just rehashing old theories and excluding contrary evidence.

There is no one in the NT who was declared to be saved and then declared to lose their salvation. Neither was any individual given a free pass to sin all they want.

The NT did not clarify this issue, otherwise, people of good faith would find agreement. This is probably because Paul and others weren't sure. After all, they neither knew everything about salvation, nor did they told us all they knew.

God determines who is saved. The NT writers wouldn't do that.

Why do you feel you can ignore all these warnings?
 
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com7fy8

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Why do you feel you can ignore all these warnings?
There are times when I take the you can lose it warnings seriously . . . when I am concerned that I have messed up big-time.

But Hebrews 12:4-14 guarantees how our Father corrects His children. So, from this I see how this can mean God corrects us so we don't leave Him. He changes our character so we are becoming more and more stable with Him so we are less and less capable of turning against Him.

And I consider > when Jesus talked with Peter, Jesus said Peter would deny Jesus three times. Jesus does not warn Peter that he can lose his salvation. But Jesus says >

"but I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail".(Luke 22:32)

And so, I see from this how Peter would have never come back to Jesus, but the prayer of Jesus got him back.

And >

Christ "also makes intercession for us." (in Romans 8:34)

But there is another scripture which clearly can be taken to mean you can lose it > about how certain younger widows >

"have already turned aside after Satan." (in 1 Timothy 5:15)

I possibly know at least one woman who has lived like this, but love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).

And >

"But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives." (1 Timothy 5:6)

I know at least one woman who is un-subject, very charming and able to talk Jesus and make things happen, but who seems to live quite a lot for pleasure and control of people. And this can be love-"dead" . . . with her not enjoying Jesus Christ's "rest for your souls." (Matthew 11:28-30)

So, people can be turned aside, or appearing to abide.

But God uses example.
 
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lsume

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1 Cor 10:12
So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

Romans 11
22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. 8The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
The sad part for me was being awakened and seeing my many failures. However it also has given me time to earnestly repent.
 
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