Is Paul addressing the elect in these passages?

lismore said:

A believer falling is not a pretty sight. But at least it's consequences are temporal alone. We already know that the Lord Jesus will not lose any that the Father has given him. God Bless

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Gal 5:4 "fallen from grace...severed from Christ" could be only temporary if the person repents.

Notice that it is a focus on doing that results in that state -

. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

What are they "Doing" that results in being "severed from Christ... fallen from grace"?

lismore said:

Hello Bob. Again I think you're marrying two distinct concepts together.

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Well I could be mistaken - I have never claimed to be infallible... however the text above does have a very distinct "doing" issue that result in the one joined-to-Christ and under-grace.. being severed from Christ and fallen from Grace.

Notice who it is the same sort of "doing" issue that Christ points to in Matthew 18 with his lesson on "forgiveness revoked".

And as the apostle also says:

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames (1 Corinthians 3:12 )

Indeed we build on the foundation of the teaching of Christ on this topic.

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

K Watt said:

1 Cor 10:12
So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

Romans 11
22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. 8The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

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Yes, I believe they are addressing the elect. But to balance them, so are these:

Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. - Heb 4:16

Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. - Luke 12:32

Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. - Romans 14:4

And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart... - Luke 18:1

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And one of my personal favorites:

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die.

But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. - Romans 5

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So while I don't believe in TULIP theology, I do believe we have a God who, after cleaning us up, is pleased to bestow additional grace upon us. He actually wants us to live with him forever, which is mind-blowing when I ponder it.

K Watt said:

So it is conditional based on our actions. That's what Paul is saying.

We can't do it alone, but we have to cooperate with God's grace by turning away from sin and repenting when we fail.

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We didn't come to Christ because there was goodness in some of us. He died to save us from our sins. The Father brought some of us to Him. Without faith we aren't unired to Christ and we aren't capable of understanding spiritual things. Jesus said that without Him, we can dio nothing. Paul said that the good he did was by the Holy Spirit. Faith comes from God.

K Watt said:

What is the purpose of his warnings?

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2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

K Watt said:

Heb 10:26
26If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries.

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If a person was being guided by the Holy Spirit he wouldn't fall away because God doesn't unsave people.

com7fy8 said:

I don't have children, but I do warn people about things God's word says are a danger. And our Apostle Paul says >

"warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom" (in Colossians 1:28)

But if Paul is warning people who are going to heed the warning . . . yes, the danger exists, but we know God's word will succeed in keeping those people from that danger.

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Israel was chosen and Israel fell away. Is that a warning for us not to behave as Israel behaved. The chosen can become those not chosen?

K Watt said:

You must confess your sins when you fail. Christ will forgive you but not if you reject his teaching and follow your own path.

He will not stop us from leaving him, but he will welcome us back if we repent.

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John 10:22
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The sheep don't stop following Him. If they get injured, He nurses them back to health. Remember, He is the Good Shepherd. He doesn't let the wolf (Satan) steal them.

klutedavid said:

Israel was chosen and Israel fell away. Is that a warning for us not to behave as Israel behaved. The chosen can become those not chosen?

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It's God's choice.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Phoebe Ann said:

It's God's choice.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

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If you read chapter nine of Romans in the surrounding context, you will see what Paul is driving at.

Romans 10:21
But as for Israel He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Too many folk ignore the context in the letter to the Romans.

Too many folk highlight a verse here and there in Romans and end up with all manner of interpretations.

Jesus was sent to the chosen nation, Israel. Israel rejected Jesus and their house was left to them desolate. But Israel was not destined to being hardened to the truth itself. Israel chose the works of the law for their righteousness and in doing this they were grafted out.

Chapter nine is not a tale about individual election. Rather chapter nine of Romans is a simple background narration, in the way God works through human history. To achieve His goal, the goal of the revelation of Jesus Christ. By Grace, through faith and not by the works of the law or merit.

K Watt said:

The point is, it is possible to lose salvation. You can fall after being saved. God doesn't stop us from rejecting him.

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klutedavid said:

Israel was chosen and Israel fell away. Is that a warning for us not to behave as Israel behaved. The chosen can become those not chosen?

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Israel fell before Jesus came and died for our sins and rose from the dead. They are an object lesson of what can happen without Jesus. They had how God proved Himself to them, took care of them perfectly and perfectly judged and punished them and gave them the perfect Law of Moses > but . . . without Jesus . . . all that was not enough.

Jesus in us makes us different. Jesus says He does not lose His sheep > John 10:1-30.

If God changes a person's character to be obedient, how can the person change oneself to be disobedient? How can obedient character have me choose to disobey?

com7fy8 said:

Israel fell before Jesus came and died for our sins and rose from the dead. They are an object lesson of what can happen without Jesus. They had how God proved Himself to them, took care of them perfectly and perfectly judged and punished them and gave them the perfect Law of Moses > but . . . without Jesus . . . all that was not enough.

Jesus in us makes us different. Jesus says He does not lose His sheep > John 10:1-30.

If God changes a person's character to be obedient, how can the person change oneself to be disobedient? How can obedient character have me choose to disobey?

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God chose Israel and that you cannot deny. Israel chose to reject the messiah and that was their choice.

We likewise have that same choice and we Gentiles can also be grafted out. Israel was grafted out and I cannot see why the Gentiles nations are any different to the nation of Israel.

Even today we can clearly see that many nations that were once Christian, are very much secular democracies, these days. Christianity is a dying religion all across the western nations. Is that because God predestined fewer folk to salvation every decade? Certainly not, people are choosing to not believe in Jesus and choosing to live life to the max instead.

Churches are shutting down all across the globe and that is purely a result, of people rejecting their savior. Paul's warning of the Gentiles being grafted out is being fulfilled right before our eyes.

klutedavid said:

nations that were once Christian,

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Being culturally Christian is not the same as being saved and kept by God.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." (1 John 2:19)

If a person is changed to be like Jesus, the person will not leave God; because he or she is like Jesus. But if a person is not deeply obedient in one's character, of course the person can choose to go against God.

com7fy8 said:

Being culturally Christian is not the same as being saved and kept by God.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." (1 John 2:19)

If a person is changed to be like Jesus, the person will not leave God; because he or she is like Jesus. But if a person is not deeply obedient in one's character, of course the person can choose to go against God.

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Yet, there are fewer and fewer Christians on this planet every year. The truth is obvious, that Christianity is rapidly in decline.

God is not the one electing fewer and fewer people every year. The problem is that Christianity these days is a very ancient religion. Christ died two thousand years ago and that event is in the deep past.

The world as a whole has moved on now and has no time for that ancient religion. Social media, Facebook, world sport, the stock exchange, fast food, world travel, the list goes on.

The days of Christianity are seriously numbered and the return of Jesus, is not that far in the future now.

God is certainly not electing many people in this modern world to salvation. People have fallen in love with themselves and their life. There is no room for Jesus anymore.

God will never abandon anyone who calls on His Name but the choice of obedience is yours alone.

klutedavid said:

God is not the one electing fewer and fewer people every year.

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God knows how many He has, no matter how this world makes things look.

What people call Christianity can be compared with what His word says really is Christianity. Jesus does say many will be deceived.

I do not personally know every one of the over seven billion people in this world; so I can tell you how many are Christian and how many are not.

com7fy8 said:

God knows how many He has, no matter how this world makes things look.

What people call Christianity can be compared with what His word says really is Christianity. Jesus does say many will be deceived.

I do not personally know every one of the over seven billion people in this world; so I can tell you how many are Christian and how many are not.

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Just look at the number of churches shutting down and how many churches, are being built in new developments.

Visit churches in your city and notice the declining attendance.

Probably half the population of the world is Muslim and another quarter of the world's population. Would not know even know who Jesus was, let alone, the gospel of grace.

That last quarter of the world's population has a percentage of Christians within.

Clearly Paul does not want people to use their standing with God as an excuse to sin.

Paul warns of things that may happen (falling away), but he doesn't point out that Christians have already fallen away, only Jews of the OT are examples of falling away.

I think that Paul did not know for certain if we could lose our salvation or not, thus he did not write definitively on this issue.

K Watt said:

1 Cor 10:12
So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

Romans 11
22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. 8The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

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I believe so, because how can anyone fall away from the faith if they were not saved to begin with? so, i see this as a warning to the church to persevere in the faith and be saved until the end.

this refutes the unconditional OSAS argument but supports the perseverance of the saints doctrine.

Peter J Barban said:

Clearly Paul does not want people to use their standing with God as an excuse to sin.

Paul warns of things that may happen (falling away), but he doesn't point out that Christians have already fallen away, only Jews of the OT are examples of falling away.

I think that Paul did not know for certain if we could lose our salvation or not, thus he did not write definitively on this issue.

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reading this, i think you are right, i think none of us know for sure. i will say that i don't believe n unconditional OSAS, but at same time, i do not believe salvation is that easy to lose either. i believe there is a sealing of our salvation that keeps u sif we persevere to the end. i do not believe in sinless perfection or else only very few would make it, maybe none at all..... and this would contradict the view that after the judgement there are multitudes worshipping around the throne of God. the way is narrow, and few find it could well be referring to how true born again believers are a tiny minority compared to the rest of the world. but i dont belive few means only a handful like some of the more sinless perfection prophets are claiming.

that i sjust my opinion though. i dont know any better than Paul or any other human. maybe we are not given complete answers on this and many things in the Bible because Jesus wants us to fully trust Him?