Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

1213 · May 20, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
...
The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, WHERE HE WAS IN TORMENT, ...

I agree that Hades is a real place. But I think it would be good to know that Hades will be thrown into the “second death” also.

…Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

Der Alte · May 20, 2020

ClementofA said:
...

...

ClementofA said:
There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:
(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.
(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end....

You accused me of "loving" some of my sources. It would appear that you love these two anonymous sources.
It is customary when quoting any source to identify them; author, title etc.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

Irrelevant bloviation. A smoke screen full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

Out-of-context proof text. This is the prophet crying, "lamenting," over the fate of unfaithful Israel.

Lamentations 3:38-45
38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.
41 Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.
42 We have transgressed and have rebelled: thou hast not pardoned.
43 Thou hast covered with anger, and persecuted us: thou hast slain, thou hast not pitied.
44 Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.
45 Thou hast made us as the offscouring and refuse in the midst of the people.

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

One supposed Easter Orthodox scholar. Here is his bio from Yale.

His specialties are philosophical theology, systematics, patristics, classical and continental philosophy, and Asian religion. His most recent work has concerned the genealogy of classical and Christian metaphysics, ontology, the metaphysics of the soul, and the philosophy of mind.

He has a PhD in Philosophy, This certainly qualifies him to translate the New Testament.
Meanwhile I present the official Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible
Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis” etc.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.

https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone has doubts about the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
Should anyone wish to refute this translation it will take more than one translation by one "scholar." Said scholar must PROVE, with credible evidence, that the EOB is incorrect.

SaintCody777 · May 20, 2020

This topic is so unpopular that tere are some ignorant people who think that Hell/Hades is going to be a big party bash.
And Hades does NOT last forever, it is just a waiting place for damned souls to be judged at the Great White Throne and thrown into their final and eternal destantion, The Lake of Fire.

DamianWarS · May 20, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side.
The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, WHERE HE WAS IN TORMENT, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue,
Because I AM IN AGONY IN THIS FIRE.’ “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us. “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers.
Let Him Warn Them, So That They Will Not Also Come TO THIS PLACE OF TORMENT.’

• Luke 16:19-28

Some people say that Jesus was speaking to people using Parables when He was mentioning Hades, But He also mentions Hades when He wasn't speaking in parables :

And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven ? No, you will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty deeds done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
• Matthew 11:23

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church,
and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
• Matthew 16:18

.

Hades is a place of Greek mythology also the name of the god of the underworld all which predate Christ. The word is borrowed for the gospels portrayal of the undesired place of the afterlife not to depict the Greek understanding of it but a different understanding.

It's incorrect to say it is the Greek counterpart to Sheol of the OT. Sheol is an indescriminate place of the dead where Hades is a very discriminate place of the dead (not all go there unlike sheol) I see Sheol as a closed door where only after you enter (which is death) do you see what lies behind it but Hades is a place of judgment.

The gospels don't give us a consistent picture of what hades looks like and I would suggest it is a place extremely unwanted liken to the images we do receive but that's about as far as I can go with that. We often gravitate to the fire and brimstone images because our western world view is heavily influenced by books like Dante's infernal to inform us what hell looks like but this is not biblical based and actually is more based on the book of Enoch with its own creative twists.

Jesus gives us extreme contrasts of essentially heaven and hell. His point is not an accurate description of hell (or hades) nor an accurate description of heaven. "Heaven" is an embrace by Abraham in the account which means a true son of Abraham where the rich man is rejected as a son and is tormented which is a notable role reversal from life to death. It also foreshadows Christ death saying that even in resurrection people still won't believe.

These are the points being established in the account and it has a very chiastic structure to it which is a common hebrew feature. The take home of the account it not that hades has flames and if that's what we got then we need to read it again.

agapelove · May 20, 2020

The flames should be taken as literally as Abraham's bosom. BOTH the Rich Man and Lazarus are in sheol. In death everything is evened out by way of reversal.

Isaiah 40:4 Every valley shall be raised up,
every mountain and hill made low;
the rough ground shall become level,
the rugged places a plain.

Noxot · May 20, 2020

Did you know that Lazarus was a rich man? The brother of Martha and Mary was well off. What I find strange is that he was such a bad brother that Mary ended up being a prostitute. Who exactly do you think helped Mary obtain the expensive alabaster jar? No doubt Lazarus was very grateful to Jesus just like his sister was.

But we all know that Lazarus ended up being the friend of Jesus. In his death he had a powerful spiritual experience. it often happens that when we go to the spiritual world we start going through intense trainings, it is a great joy for the angels and Saints to try to help us in those ways which are compatible with us. yes, Lazarus experienced both Heaven and Hell and realized that the supposed Goods he had were full of poverty and sores. his fleshly nature was oppressing his spirit. But he was a double-minded man and he also had the spirit warring against his flesh. So he would listen to Jesus. he like most of us was not purely evil.

Major1 · May 20, 2020

ClementofA said:
In scripture it often speaks of a - person - going to the grave. Rather than a body. So the issue is whether or not David meant he would join his child in the graveyard or elsewhere. AFAIK he didn't say one way or the other. If not then the verse looks like a - big fail - if you think it's a "proof text" that murdered aborted babies are forced into God's kingdom without a choice & or without being born again, which is required BTW as per John 3.

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

Without a doubt, this is one of the most difficult questions we can ask and unfortunity, the Bible does not answer it for us.

The best biblical response is this: “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?”
I believe that we can trust the God who died so that His enemies could be saved to do what is right in the case of infants who die.

Personally, I would not worship a loving, holy God who would allow an infant to go to hell before it reached the age of accountability. But that is just me and everyone else can do as they please.

I completely understand the argument that David knew he was going to heaven, so the baby must be there. However, the point of David’s statement is that the baby is in the grave. David will visit the grave, but the baby will not come back to life no matter how much he agonizes in fasting and prayer.

My wife and I have two children and five grandchildren and we love those babies very much. My daughter lost a baby and the fact that John the Baptizer was known and named by God in the womb and filled with the Holy Spirit before his birth gives us much comfort.

Major1 · May 20, 2020

Hieronymus said:
It's a parable, based on folklore.

That is incorrect. In Bible terms, parables never uses PROPER names.

Abraham, Lazarus and Moses are all literal, real, proper names therefore the story given by Jesus is a literal story.

eleos1954 · May 20, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side.
The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, WHERE HE WAS IN TORMENT, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue,
Because I AM IN AGONY IN THIS FIRE.’ “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us. “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers.
Let Him Warn Them, So That They Will Not Also Come TO THIS PLACE OF TORMENT.’

• Luke 16:19-28

Some people say that Jesus was speaking to people using Parables when He was mentioning Hades, But He also mentions Hades when He wasn't speaking in parables :

And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven ? No, you will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty deeds done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
• Matthew 11:23

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church,
and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
• Matthew 16:18

.

Lazarus story is a parable.

Hell is the grave ... when we die earthly death we all go there and wait (dormant) for the 1st resurrection (of the saved) or second resurrection (of the lost) (2nd death).

Nobody is "burning in hell" right now .... and no one will burn in "hell" for eternity. Nothing about us is immortal until Jesus returns.

Many many MANY OT & NT verses support this.

In the VERY end all the unrepentant wicked, satan and his minions will be destroyed by eternal fire destroying them (turned to ashes) along with the earth.

Then God makes everything new.

Eternal life with the Lord or eternal death ... those are the choices.

State of the Dead

Psalm 90:3-6

You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men." For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night. You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew.

Job 7:21

"Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10-12

"But man dies and lies prostrate Man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 13:3

Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

Daniel 12:2

"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 9:24

He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Mark 5:39

And entering in, He said to them, "Why make a commotion and weep? The child has not died, but is asleep."

Luke 8:52-53

Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him, knowing that she had died.

1 Kings 2:10

Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

Deuteronomy 31:16

The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.

2 Samuel 7:12

"When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.

1 Kings 11:43

And Solomon slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of his father David, and his son Rehoboam reigned in his place.

1 Kings 14:20

The time that Jeroboam reigned was twenty-two years; and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his place.

1 Kings 16:6

And Baasha slept with his fathers and was buried in Tirzah, and Elah his son became king in his place.

1 Kings 22:50

And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers and was buried with his fathers in the city of his father David, and Jehoram his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 14:16

So Jehoash slept with his fathers and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 15:7

And Azariah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David, and Jotham his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 16:20

So Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David; and his son Hezekiah reigned in his place.

2 Kings 20:21

So Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and Manasseh his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 21:18

And Manasseh slept with his fathers and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza, and Amon his son became king in his place.

Revelation 14:13

And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."

John 11:11-14

This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.

Acts 7:60

Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:6

After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;

John 5:28-29

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Job 14:13-15

"Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! "If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait Until my change comes. "You will call, and I will answer You; You will long for the work of Your hands.

Psalm 17:15

As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness when I awake.

Isaiah 26:19

Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

1 Corinthians 15:20

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Jeremiah 51:57

"I will make her princes and her wise men drunk, Her governors, her prefects and her mighty men, That they may sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake up," Declares the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.

Psalm 7:3-5

O LORD my God, if I have done this, If there is injustice in my hands, If I have rewarded evil to my friend, Or have plundered him who without cause was my adversary, Let the enemy pursue my soul and overtake it; And let him trample my life down to the ground And lay my glory in the dust. Selah.

Psalm 76:5

The stouthearted were plundered, They sank into sleep; And none of the warriors could use his hands.

Jeremiah 51:39

"When they become heated up, I will serve them their banquet And make them drunk, that they may become jubilant And may sleep a perpetual sleep And not wake up," declares the LORD.

Major1 · May 20, 2020

ClementofA said:
Then i have to wonder if you've seriously researched & studied the question as to whether or not universalism being scriptural has some merit.

As for the scripture passages you posted, i'll address Matthew 25:46:

You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

Interpretation 1 above accepts the parallel of "eonian destinies". So the parallel there is not denied. Likewise interpretation 2 above acknowledging parallel perpetual destinies. But that the word perpetual can vary according to its subject.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

First of all...."Universalism" has NO merit whatsoever.

As I have read your comments, you have also proved the fact that those who accept this false unbiblical opinion do not accept a literal hell.

Universalism is completely unbiblical and is a false teaching based on the idea that a loving God would not do such a thing as torment anyone in fire.

Secondly...….your posts are so very long that I for one will not read all of them. If you want to shorten them I would like to discuss your opinions.

Major1 · May 20, 2020

eleos1954 said:
Lazarus story is a parable.

Hell is the grave ... when we die earthly death we all go there and wait (dormant) for the 1st resurrection (of the saved) or second resurrection (of the lost) (2nd death).

Nobody is "burning in hell" right now .... and no one will burn in "hell" for eternity. Nothing about us is immortal until Jesus returns.

Many many MANY OT & NT verses support this.

In the VERY end all the unrepentant wicked, satan and his minions will be destroyed by eternal fire destroying them (turned to ashes) along with the earth.

Then God makes everything new.

Eternal life with the Lord or eternal death ... those are the choices.

State of the Dead

Psalm 90:3-6

You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men." For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night. You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew.

Job 7:21

"Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10-12

"But man dies and lies prostrate Man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 13:3

Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

Daniel 12:2

"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 9:24

He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Mark 5:39

And entering in, He said to them, "Why make a commotion and weep? The child has not died, but is asleep."

Luke 8:52-53

Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him, knowing that she had died.

1 Kings 2:10

Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

Deuteronomy 31:16

The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.

2 Samuel 7:12

"When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.

1 Kings 11:43

And Solomon slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of his father David, and his son Rehoboam reigned in his place.

1 Kings 14:20

The time that Jeroboam reigned was twenty-two years; and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his place.

1 Kings 16:6

And Baasha slept with his fathers and was buried in Tirzah, and Elah his son became king in his place.

1 Kings 22:50

And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers and was buried with his fathers in the city of his father David, and Jehoram his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 14:16

So Jehoash slept with his fathers and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 15:7

And Azariah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David, and Jotham his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 16:20

So Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David; and his son Hezekiah reigned in his place.

2 Kings 20:21

So Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and Manasseh his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 21:18

And Manasseh slept with his fathers and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza, and Amon his son became king in his place.

Revelation 14:13

And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."

John 11:11-14

This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.

Acts 7:60

Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:6

After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;

John 5:28-29

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Job 14:13-15

"Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! "If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait Until my change comes. "You will call, and I will answer You; You will long for the work of Your hands.

Psalm 17:15

As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness when I awake.

Isaiah 26:19

Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

1 Corinthians 15:20

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Jeremiah 51:57

"I will make her princes and her wise men drunk, Her governors, her prefects and her mighty men, That they may sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake up," Declares the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.

Psalm 7:3-5

O LORD my God, if I have done this, If there is injustice in my hands, If I have rewarded evil to my friend, Or have plundered him who without cause was my adversary, Let the enemy pursue my soul and overtake it; And let him trample my life down to the ground And lay my glory in the dust. Selah.

Psalm 76:5

The stouthearted were plundered, They sank into sleep; And none of the warriors could use his hands.

Jeremiah 51:39

"When they become heated up, I will serve them their banquet And make them drunk, that they may become jubilant And may sleep a perpetual sleep And not wake up," declares the LORD.

When you are working so hard copying and pasting, do you actually think that anyone is going to read your work?????

Parables never use proper names. Do not take my word for this. Look it up for your self.

FineLinen · May 20, 2020

Major1 said:
Without a doubt, this is one of the most difficult questions we can ask and unfortunity, the Bible does not answer it for us.

The best biblical response is this: “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?”
I believe that we can trust the God who died so that His enemies could be saved to do what is right in the case of infants who die.

Personally, I would not worship a loving, holy God who would allow an infant to go to hell before it reached the age of accountability.

As a follower of the Lamb it is impossible to worship a being who torments anyone!

Perhaps you can point us to the "age of accountability" Scripture and then explain how an individual who is a sinner by nature ("T" in Tulip) gets a free pass?

FineLinen · May 20, 2020

Major1 said:
Parables never use proper names. Do not take my word for this. Look it up for your self.

You can count on F.L. never taking your word or conjecture.

The range of meaning of the term "parable" =

(Gk. parabole [parabol) in the New Testament closely parallels that of the Hebrew masal [l;v'm] in the Old Testament and related Hebrew literature.

As well as referring to narrative parables, the term identifies similitudes ( Matt 13:33 ; B. Pes. 49a), allegories ( Ezek 17:2 ; 24:3 ; Matthew 13:18 Matthew 13:24 Matthew 13:36 ), proverbs ( Proverbs 1:1 Proverbs 1:6 ; Mark 3:23 ), riddles ( Psalm 78:2 ; Mark 7:17 ), and symbols or types ( Heb 9:9 )

"Parable" is a general term for a figurative saying.

Noxot · May 20, 2020

There is another word that is kind of like parable called similitude. Let's say you see a dog throw up and then eat its vomit. You actually saw it occur. Now you use it to teach someone something. That's what happens sometimes with the Bible.

ClementofA · May 20, 2020

Major1 said:
First of all...."Universalism" has NO merit whatsoever.

IMHO, I consider it a biblically sound truth.

Major1 said:
As I have read your comments, you have also proved the fact that those who accept this false unbiblical opinion do not accept a literal hell.

I don't know where you got that idea & you didn't quote me to support your claim. I surely believe there will be a "literal hell" in the sense that, for example, those in the LOF will be "tormented" (Rev.14:11; 20:10) literally "into the ages of the ages", not the deceptive misleading translation "forever and ever" which is self contradictory nonsense.

Major1 said:
Universalism is completely unbiblical and is a false teaching based on the idea that a loving God would not do such a thing as torment anyone in fire.

I, as do many other Christian universalists [Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Evangelicals, Anglicans, etc), base the view solidly on Scripture.

Major1 said:
Secondly...….your posts are so very long that I for one will not read all of them. If you want to shorten them I would like to discuss your opinions.

Hopefully that was sufficiently short.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

GirdYourLoins · May 20, 2020

ClementofA said:
What happens to murdered aborted babies?

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

Everyone is given the chance to accept or reject Jesus. That includes unborn babies. Any that dont get the chance in this life are given the opportunity in Hades/I always remember a sermon years ago that taught on this so have taken an interest in the subject since (I dont hold that all sermons are infallible as they are given by people). The book/film "Heaven is for Real" included that the boy met his miscarried sister he didnt know about in heaven. This fits with my belief that unborn babies would be given the opportunity to accept Jesus and go to heaven.

Der Alte · May 20, 2020

FineLinen said:
You can count on F.L. never taking your word or conjecture.
The range of meaning of the term "parable" =
(Gk. parabole [parabolhv]) in the New Testament closely parallels that of the Hebrew masal [l;v'm] in the Old Testament and related Hebrew literature.
As well as referring to narrative parables, the term identifies similitudes ( Matt 13:33 ; B. Pes. 49a), allegories ( Ezek 17:2 ; 24:3 ; Matthew 13:18 Matthew 13:24 Matthew 13:36 ), proverbs ( Proverbs 1:1 Proverbs 1:6 ; Mark 3:23 ), riddles ( Psalm 78:2 ; Mark 7:17 ), and symbols or types ( Heb 9:9 )
"Parable" is a general term for a figurative saying.

It is customary when one quotes a source to identify the source; title, author, page#, chapter# etc.
If one tried that in college or grad school they would get a failing grade and very likely kicked out of the school.
Please show us one of the unchallenged parables, 2 or more would be better, which names specific persons?
Jesus did not identify the story of Lazarus and the rich man Luke as a parable. He did not explain it later to His disciples. If Abraham was not in the place Jesus mentioned and did not say the words that Jesus quoted, Jesus was a liar.
All of the ECF who quoted/referred to the Lazarus and the rich man account considered the story factual.

ClementofA · May 20, 2020

Der Alte said:
It is customary when quoting any source to identify them; author, title etc.

Author = me = ClementofA. Wasn't it obvious.

Der Alte said:
Out-of-context proof text. This is the prophet crying, "lamenting," over the fate of unfaithful Israel.

Lamentations 3:38-45
38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.
41 Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.
42 We have transgressed and have rebelled: thou hast not pardoned.
43 Thou hast covered with anger, and persecuted us: thou hast slain, thou hast not pitied.
44 Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.
45 Thou hast made us as the offscouring and refuse in the midst of the people.

Context should not be used as a pretext to dismiss what God has plainly stated:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

Doing that you can make the Bible say all kinds of crazy stuff.

"If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense."

Der Alte said:
One supposed Easter Orthodox scholar. Here is his bio from Yale.

His specialties are philosophical theology, systematics, patristics, classical and continental philosophy, and Asian religion. His most recent work has concerned the genealogy of classical and Christian metaphysics, ontology, the metaphysics of the soul, and the philosophy of mind.

He has a PhD in Philosophy, This certainly qualifies him to translate the New Testament.

You tried to discredit him similarly in the following thread. He's been reading the Bible in Greek for many years (see post #29 for more on that & his qualifications to translate):

A new New Testament translation by EO scholar DB Hart

Der Alte said:
Meanwhile I present the official Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible
Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis” etc.

How about the Early Church Fathers who were universalists?

What are the theoligical biases of the EOB version? Endless tortures?

Would they sell the EOB to the public & get paid if they rendered aionion as eonian?

What spirit motivates them?

Der Alte said:
Should anyone wish to refute this translation it will take more than one translation by one "scholar." Said scholar must PROVE, with credible evidence, that the EOB is incorrect.

"An argument from authority (argumentum ab auctoritate), also called an appeal to authority, or argumentum ad verecundiam, is a form of defeasible[1] argument in which the opinion of an authority on a topic is used as evidence to support an argument. It is well known as a fallacy,..."

You'll have to prove the ECF universalists wrong first. Good luck with that.

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · May 20, 2020

FineLinen said:
As a follower of the Lamb it is impossible to worship a being who torments anyone!

he himself shall also drink of the wine of The Wrath Of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be Tormented With Fire And Brimstone In The Presence Of The Holy Angels And In The Presence Of The Lamb.

• Revelation 14:10

.

Noxot · May 20, 2020

Imagine being supremely ugly in the face of true beauty. materialist have to resort to very ugly and evil understandings of God. The true torment is corrupting your image of God that God made you to be. the suffering of the soul may very well manifest physical tortures and pains. There are certainly many evil spirits that love to hurt people and wish to torture. But when they are in the presence of angels they are tortured because of the vast difference of their state of being. That is why demons were so tortured by Jesus.

those that believe that God Wills for others to be tortured have a very bad understanding of God and are already accepting doctrines of demons and may even secretly love people being tortured. The torture is that love is dead and that goodness is dying.

Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

Disciple of Jesus

This is me about 1 yr. old.

The young, curious Berean

Follower of Isa Al Masih

Well-Known Member

anarchist personalist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

God is Love

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

anarchist personalist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

anarchist personalist

Similar threads