Futurist Only Prophecy to be fulfilled.

keras said:

A rapture removal to heaven of any living person will not happen. Nowhere does the Bible teach such a thing. Jesus plainly said it was impossible. John 3:13

But shouldn't we Christians know what God actually does plan for His people? We should not be in the dark, we are children of the Light, that Day will not come upon you like a thief.... 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5
That Day, the one that will come as a thief, shocking and unexpected. is prophesied and described over 100 times in the Bible. It will not be Jesus' Return in glory, but His Day of wrath, when He judges and punishes the nations. Zephaniah 3:8, Isaiah 66:15-16, Luke 21:34-35
What the Lord will use to literally fulfil all the graphic effects of that terrible Day, is plainly told to us in Isaiah 30:26 and confirmed by Malachi 4:1, Psalms 50:1-3, and Psalms 11:4-6, 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 14:17-20

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I believe in a post tribulation rapture, just because it's doesn't happen mean there is a serious difference here. I never thought it was a should interpretation and the dispensationalists do scenarios is just plain bizarre. Had this one guy telling me the seals, trumpets and vials are not in chronological order and run concurrently, so there was this constant splicing. Over complicating end time events and scenarios is unnecessary and you really don't need a special theology.

Biblewriter said:

What you are actually saying is that you don't really care about approximately a third of everything God has bothered to tell us. For the New Testament repeatedly refers to the Psalms as prophecy, and when we include the Psalms, the prophetic portions of the word of God bulk to about a third of its entire volume.

But I agree with you that we do not know when God's prophetic calendar will start.

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I dwelled on prophecy for years, messianic prophecy at first, but eschatology for quite some time. What I'm not worried about is the exact time of the rapture.

Biblewriter said:

While the timing of the rapture is a legitimate subject for debate, the fact of its happening is not. This is a blatant, up front, denial of explicitly stated scripture. And it totally discredits you as a teacher of scripture.

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Well then, lets see the scriptures that say God will take His people to heaven.
Don't use 1 Thess 4:15-17, as that happens at Jesus' Return and is just a meeting in the atmosphere, then to Jerusalem, where He will be for the Millennium.
Don't use John 14:1-3, as that refers to the New Jerusalem that will come down after the Millennium.
Don't use 1 Corinthians 15:50-58, as that explains what happens at the Great White Throne for those who are accounted worthy.
Don't parrot 'we are not appointed to wrath', as God says many times that He will protect His people, not remove them.

The rapture theory is a false doctrine and millions have been deceived by it. Those who promote it will be more severely judged. James 3:1

Biblewriter said:

If God could legitimately tell Israel, Judah, Ephraim, and the twelve tribes, that the promises He made to them actually meant a different people in a different place, he could just as legitimately tell us that the promises He made to us were actually meant for a different people. THus, your doctrine destroys the very foundations of our fauth.

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We Christians are the people of God. There is no other.
We are the sons of Abraham by faith. Those who claim sonship by descent but not by faith are no longer God's people. Matthew 3:8-9
All this is clearly spelled out in the New Testament, but Isaiah 51:1-2 also makes it clear that all who follow after righteousness are quarried from Abraham.

Anyway, the fact is that we Western, Christian peoples are mainly descended from the ten Northern tribes, so we will fulfil God's promises to the Patriarchs and we inherit all the unfulfilled prophesies about the Land and our role in the last days.

mark kennedy said:

I dwelled on prophecy for years, messianic prophecy at first, but eschatology for quite some time. What I'm not worried about is the exact time of the rapture.

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While the scriptures are explicitly clear hat the rapture will happen, they simply do not say when it will happen. ALL conclusions about the timing of the rapture are based on interpretation. And ALL interpretations are subject to possible error.

I am thoroughly persuaded in the pre-tribulation timing of the rapture. And I think that a complete understanding of end time prophecy requires this conclusion. But I am aware that this is interpretation, not an explicit statement of scripture.

keras said:

Well then, lets see the scriptures that say God will take His people to heaven.
Don't use 1 Thess 4:15-17, as that happens at Jesus' Return and is just a meeting in the atmosphere, then to Jerusalem, where He will be for the Millennium.

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This is a theory you like to believe. But that is ALL it is. There is zero scriptural basis for this claim.

keras said:

Don't use John 14:1-3, as that refers to the New Jerusalem that will come down after the Millennium.

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This is not only pure interpretation, but flatly contrary to the text in question. For it says that Jesus is going to the Father's house (which is in heaven) to prepare a place for us. And that He will come to take us there.

keras said:

Don't use 1 Corinthians 15:50-58, as that explains what happens at the Great White Throne for those who are accounted worthy.

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Here, you are ignoring John 5:24, which clearly says "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." A person who "shall not come into judgment" will never stand before the great white throne..

keras said:

Don't parrot 'we are not appointed to wrath', as God says many times that He will protect His people, not remove them.

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Here, you are ignoring the fact that He explicitly said that he will keep His own from "the hour of temptation." That is, that they will not just be kept through the time of testing, but be kept out of it.

keras said:

The rapture theory is a false doctrine and millions have been deceived by it. Those who promote it will be more severely judged. James 3:1

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The Lord calls those that say, "my Lord delays his coming," "evil."

keras said:

We Christians are the people of God. There is no other.
We are the sons of Abraham by faith. Those who claim sonship by descent but not by faith are no longer God's people. Matthew 3:8-9
All this is clearly spelled out in the New Testament, but Isaiah 51:1-2 also makes it clear that all who follow after righteousness are quarried from Abraham.

Anyway, the fact is that we Western, Christian peoples are mainly descended from the ten Northern tribes, so we will fulfil God's promises to the Patriarchs and we inherit all the unfulfilled prophesies about the Land and our role in the last days.

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All of this is pure opinion. And it explicitly denies a very large number of explicitly stated passages of scripture.

Biblewriter said:

This is a theory you like to believe. But that is ALL it is. There is zero scriptural basis for this claim.

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1 Thess 4:15-17 never mentions heaven, except for the place Jesus just came from. No rapture to heaven here, only a transportation to where Jesus is; that will be Jerusalem.

Biblewriter said:

This is not only pure interpretation, but flatly contrary to the text in question. For it says that Jesus is going to the Father's house (which is in heaven) to prepare a place for us. And that He will come to take us there.

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Jesus is preparing a place for His people. It will come down to earth after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-4 He says: I will come again, His Return, and take you to where I am....That is to Jerusalem, just as we see in the Thess quote.
No mention of anyone actually going to heaven in John 14:1-3

Biblewriter said:

Here, you are ignoring John 5:24, which clearly says "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." A person who "shall not come into judgment" will never stand before the great white throne..

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But everyone who has ever lived will stand before the GWT, Revelation 20:11-13 As true believers will have their names written in the Book of Life, they will automatically be given immortality; as promised.

Biblewriter said:

Here, you are ignoring the fact that He explicitly said that he will keep His own from "the hour of temptation." That is, that they will not just be kept through the time of testing, but be kept out of it.

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Again; never a mention of going to heaven for anyone, just protection and in the case of the faithful people in Revelation 12:6 & 14, taken to a place of safety on earth.

Biblewriter said:

The Lord calls those that say, "my Lord delays his coming," "evil."

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The Lord will judge those who teach false doctrines more severely. James 3:1

Biblewriter said:

All of this is pure opinion. And it explicitly denies a very large number of explicitly stated passages of scripture.

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I quoted 2 scriptures to support my case. It is purely your opinion that denies the Biblical truth of God's people being Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language, that includes Christian Jews. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10
Every other person on earth is not one of God's people.

keras said:

But everyone who has ever lived will stand before the GWT, Revelation 20:11-13 As true believers will have their names written in the Book of Life, they will automatically be given immortality; as promised.

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I quoted a scripture that explicitly says that those who believe in Jesus will not come into judgment. You simply assume that "the dead" means every person that has ever lived, totally ignoring the well known fact that Christians who have passed this life are never referred to as "dead," but as "asleep."

keras said:

I quoted 2 scriptures to support my case. It is purely your opinion that denies the Biblical truth of God's people being Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language, that includes Christian Jews. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10
Every other person on earth is not one of God's people.

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You quoted two scriptures that you imagine support your case. but neither of them actually says what you teach. You are flatly ignoring a very large number of scriptures that very explicitly make promises to the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel, as well as to each of the subdivisions of that ancient nation. EVERT explicit statement of scripture trumps EVERY interpretation of any number of other scriptures.

Your doctrine is an express denial of what God has explicitly said. Case closed.

Biblewriter said:

I quoted a scripture that explicitly says that those who believe in Jesus will not come into judgment. You simply assume that "the dead" means every person that has ever lived, totally ignoring the well known fact that Christians who have passed this life are never referred to as "dead," but as "asleep."

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Christians do die just like anyone else, but because of God's promise to those who believe in Him, they will receive eternal life. This will happen just as Revelation 20:11-15 tells us.
Accusing me of assuming all the dead, great and small.... everyone standing in judgment, means what it says; is an indictment on you for failing to read the Bible properly.
Thinking that Christians don't appear at the GWT, denies this scripture and also denies 1 Corinthians 15:30-58, another prophecy that describes what happens at the GWT. Proved by how it is only then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

keras said:

Christians do die just like anyone else, but because of God's promise to those who believe in Him, they will receive eternal life. This will happen just as Revelation 20:11-15 tells us.
Accusing me of assuming all the dead, great and small.... everyone standing in judgment, means what it says; is an indictment on you for failing to read the Bible properly.
Thinking that Christians don't appear at the GWT, denies this scripture and also denies 1 Corinthians 15:30-58, another prophecy that describes what happens at the GWT. Proved by how it is only then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

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You are adding a word to Revelation 20:11-15. That word is the word "all," which does not even occur anywhere in that passage. And 1 Corinthians 15:30-58 is speaking of a different event that takes place at a different time that the Great White Throne. It distinctly calls the passing of Christians "sleep," rather than"death," as does EVERY passage speaking of this event in regard to Christians. And Revelation 20:4-6 very distinctly states that the resurrection of the righteous takes place a thousand years before the Great white Throne described in verses 11-15. [Staff edit].

Biblewriter said:

You are adding a word to Revelation 20:11-15. That word s the word "all," which does not even occur anywhere in that passage. And 1 Corinthians 15:30-58 is speaking of a different event that takes place at a different time that the Great White Throne. It distinctly calls the passing of Christians "sleep," rather than"death," as does EVERY passage speaking of this event in regard to Christians. And Revelation 20:4-6 very distinctly states that the resurrection of the righteous takes place a thousand years before the Great white Throne described in verses 11-15.

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Yes, Rev 20:11-15 does not say all, I didn't use 'all' in a Bible quote, just showed that the dead; great and small, from the sea and from hades, etc: EVERYONE was judge according to their deeds. In my understanding, that means all the people who have ever lived and died.
We have gone over the use of 'sleep' for Christians, as they will awake to Eternal life, but the godless will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 20:4 very distinctly states that only the martyrs who have been beheaded by the 'beast' will be brought back to life. You are guilty of adding to Revelation.

Please prove when 1 Cor 15:50-58 will happen, if not after the GWT.

[Staff edit].

keras said:

Yes, Rev 20:11-15 does not say all, I didn't use 'all' in a Bible quote, just showed that the dead; great and small, from the sea and from hades, etc: EVERYONE was judge according to their deeds. In my understanding, that means all the people who have ever lived and died.
We have gone over the use of 'sleep' for Christians, as they will awake to Eternal life, but the godless will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 20:4 very distinctly states that only the martyrs who have been beheaded by the 'beast' will be brought back to life. You are guilty of adding to Revelation.

Please prove when 1 Cor 15:50-58 will happen, if not after the GWT.

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I distinctly remember you quoting this passage with the word "all" added. I went back to find it, but could not. Did you alter that post? But that is not important. As I was looking back, I noticed one point you made that I did not answer. that point was to the effect that the effect of physical descent from Abraham was cancelled if the people did not believe. This argument is based a very common misunderstanding of what people like me, who simply accept and believe ALL of the Bible, teach.

We most certainly do not believe, or imagine, that anyone can now or ever will be saved, aside from a living trust in Christ. The scriptures promise, and promise in words too clear to even possibly misunderstand, that all of the ancient nation of Israel will indeed be restored to their ancient homeland. But they also very clearly state that this promised restoration will only take place after several other things happen. The first of these is that2/3 of all the inhabitants in the land will be killed, then Messiah will purge the wicked from temple. After that, all the rest of Israel will be brought back, but all the rebels will be purged from among them. And then all the remaining Israelites will turn in true faith to Jesus.

The scriptures clearly state all of these. So a belief in the restoration of all I

You are neglecting the first sentence of Revelation 20:4, which specifically mentions others, besides the martyrs of the time of Antichrist.

There is no scripture that even implies that 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 happens after the GWT. But you yourself have admitted that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 will happen when Jesus comes. I see this as his first return, which is mentioned only as to the air. And you see it as when He comes to judge the world for its wickedness. But in either case, it happens before the thousand year reign. And whether you see the thousand years as literal or symbolic of a long time, it unquestionably takes place over a significant period of time. But both the return and the reighn unquestionable take place before the GWT, for it takes place after the thousand year reign.

So the resurrection which is clearly mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, clearly happens before the GWT. And the people raised at that tie are clearly a part of the group which is called "the first resurrection in Revelation 20:5-6.

Biblewriter said:

I distinctly remember you quoting this passage with the word "all" added

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I merely used 'all' in a sentence, not as a Bible quote.

Biblewriter said:

that point was to the effect that the effect of physical descent from Abraham was cancelled if the people did not believe.

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They remain physical Jews, but in God's eyes they are no different than every other godless person.
Isn't this enough: Matthew 3:8-10, Matthew 21:43, Galatians 3:26-9 and Romans 4:13-16....the Promise was made on the grounds of faith, so as salvation would be God's grace, not only for those who have the Law, but also for those who have the same faith as Abraham, for he is the father of us all. Isaiah 51:1-2

Biblewriter said:

You are neglecting the first sentence of Revelation 20:4, which specifically mentions others, besides the martyrs of the time of Antichrist.

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Please write out this verse in full and highlight where it says that. It isn't in my REB or the KJV.

Biblewriter said:

There is no scripture that even implies that 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 happens after the GWT

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That prophecy itself confirms it can only happen after the GWT, as only then will Death be no more.

Biblewriter said:

So the resurrection which is clearly mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, clearly happens before the GWT. And the people raised at that tie are clearly a part of the group which is called "the first resurrection in Revelation 20:5-6.

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Jesus brings the souls of the martyrs with Him and they come to life as per Rev 20:4, [not immortality yet] they are the Christian dead mentioned in 1 Thess 4:16b. There is no other resurrection mentioned until the GWT, at the end of the Millennium.

keras said:

They remain physical Jews, but in God's eyes they are no different than every other godless person.
Isn't this enough: Matthew 3:8-10, Matthew 21:43, Galatians 3:26-9 and Romans 4:13-16....the Promise was made on the grounds of faith, so as salvation would be God's grace, not only for those who have the Law, but also for those who have the same faith as Abraham, for he is the father of us all. Isaiah 51:1-2

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Here you are ignoring my answer as if I had not even given it I, and the others who simply teach the scriptures, DO NOT teach, or even imply, that anyone will ever be saved outside of faith in Christ. What we teach, because the scriptures clearly teach it, is that all of Israel will be brought back to the land, all the rebels will be purged out from their midst, and all the rest of them will repent and come to a true and living faith in Christ. This doctrine, which is clearly taught in the prophetic scriptures, totally nullifies your entire argument.

keras said:

Please write out this verse in full and highlight where it says that. It isn't in my REB or the KJV.

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Actually, it is clearly stated in the KJV. There are two distnct statements, each beginning with the words "I saw." And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The prophet first saw thrones, and people sitting on these thrones. Then he saw another group, the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus.

keras said:

That prophecy itself confirms it can only happen after the GWT, as only then will Death be no more.

Jesus brings the souls of the martyrs with Him and they come to life as per Rev 20:4, [not immortality yet] they are the Christian dead mentioned in 1 Thess 4:16b. There is no other resurrection mentioned until the GWT, at the end of the Millennium.

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Again, you are adding words to scripture, the passage your speaking (1 Corinthians 15:50-58) of says nothing about death being no more.

And Revelation 20 says nothing about the detail contained in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, that some will be changed without passing through death, which, as always for CVristians, s called "sleep."

Biblewriter said:

What we teach, because the scriptures clearly teach it, is that all of Israel will be brought back to the land, all the rebels will be purged out from their midst, and all the rest of them will repent and come to a true and living faith in Christ. This doctrine, which is clearly taught in the prophetic scriptures, totally nullifies your entire argument.

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What you teach is contrary to all New Testament teaching, which is; we Christians are now the Israel of God. WE are the inheritors of God's promises to the Patriarchs - Ephesians 1:11-14, Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-17, Galatians 3:26-29, +
As for those who wrongly call themselves Israel; only a remnant of Christian Jews will be saved. Romans 9:27
Yes, ALL Israel will go to live in all of the holy Land, they will be every born again Christian from every race, nation and language. The real Israel; the victorious Overcomers of God. 1 John 5:4

Biblewriter said:

Actually, it is clearly stated in the KJV. There are two distnct statements, each beginning with the words "I saw." And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The prophet first saw thrones, and people sitting on these thrones. Then he saw another group, the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus.

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To say that those on the Thrones doing the judging of the martyrs, are raptured Christians, is a very seriously wrong assumption. We see in Revelation 4, the 24 Elders, who most likely will be the ones who judge at Jesus' Return. We Christians only receive our rewards then. Matthew 16:27

Biblewriter said:

Again, you are adding words to scripture, the passage your speaking (1 Corinthians 15:50-58) of says nothing about death being no more.

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Huh? Have you some kind of difficulty to read plain Words?
1 Corinthians 15:55 Death; where is your victory, death where is your sting!
It is you and all who love the rapture theory that must misapply scripture and place that prophecy before the GWT
The Christian dead are said to 'sleep' because we have the promise of eventual Eternal Life. Revelation 20:11-15 is absolutely clear: immortality will not happen before the Book of Life is opened.

keras said:

What you teach is contrary to all New Testament teaching, which is; we Christians are now the Israel of God. WE are the inheritors of God's promises to the Patriarchs - Ephesians 1:11-14, Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-17, Galatians 3:26-29, +
As for those who wrongly call themselves Israel; only a remnant of Christian Jews will be saved. Romans 9:27
Yes, ALL Israel will go to live in all of the holy Land, they will be every born again Christian from every race, nation and language. The real Israel; the victorious Overcomers of God. 1 John 5:4

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What you teach is flatly contrary to a great many explicitly stated Old Testament passages. And it is nothing but an interpretation of what the New testament teaches. For there is not even one New testament passage that actually says what you claim it means. And there is not even one passage in the entire New Testament that even so much as hints at the idea that the many promises made by God to the ancient nation of Israel, to the ancient sub-nations of Judah and Ephraim, and to the twelve tribes of Israel, will not be kept, exactly as stated.

I must stress that your doctrine destroys the very roots of Christianity. For if the primises of God are not absolutely reliable, then we have zero basis for our faith. If God could legitimately tell Israel, Ephraim and Judah, and the twelve tribes that He did not really mean them, when he made his promises to them, He could just as legitimately tell us that the promises He made to us did not really mean us.

If your doctrine is true, we have zero basis for our faith.

I see no reason to continue this pointless discussion. For I know you will never yield to any number of explicitly stated scriptures.

Biblewriter said:

If your doctrine is true, we have zero basis for our faith.

I see no reason to continue this pointless discussion. For I know you will never yield to any number of explicitly stated scriptures.

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Very good, James, it's best to not get into acrimonious debate, where consensus is clearly impossible. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to present the Biblical facts, over 3000 other people can see from the Bible passages that I quote, where the truth is.

I would just say that our Christian faith is strengthened by the truth that we are the Israelites; the Overcomers of God. Romans 9:6-9, Colossians 3:11-12, Isaiah 56:1-8
WE Christians are the people from every race, nation and language, who will inherit the holy Land. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 5:9-10, Romans 9:24-26, Ephesians 1:10-14, +
The nation that bears the proper fruit, that will inherit the Kingdom. Matthew 21:43

keras said:

Ephesians 2:11-18 makes it crystal clear that ethnicity counts for nothing.
The main message of the New Testament is that Salvation is open to all who will accept it. Those who do, every born again Christian believer, become the Israelites of God; His overcomers. Galatians 6:15-16, 1 Peter 2:9-10
They retain their ethnic roots, of course; we do not 'become Jews', physically circumcised, or any other such nonsense.
Christian Jews will not be the majority of God's people. As Romans 9:27 says: As for Israel, only a remnant will be saved.
The majority of the new inhabitants of all the holy Land area will be people from every race, nation and language, as shown in Revelation 7:9

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Ephesians 2:11-18 is about reconciliation to God, through Christ. It is not about promises made to those of Israel. Salvation is open to all who respond to Yahweh's grace with faith for salvation, which is made possible through Christ. That is it. Promises made to those of the covenant with Israel do not come with salvation.

Are you observing the Sabbaths, high holy days, and rituals observed by Jewish people? If not, you are not Jewish, and you have no claim of being of Israel. Even being spiritual Israel does not mean having everything of Israel.

Though a remnant of Israel will be saved, it is the remnant that will be all that is left of those of Israel, Romans 10:26 shows that they will all be saved. Those in Revelation 7:9 are before the throne of God, they have come out of the great tribulation, this means they are not in the land of Israel.

FredVB said:

Ephesians 2:11-18 is about reconciliation to God, through Christ. It is not about promises made to those of Israel. Salvation is open to all who respond to Yahweh's grace with faith for salvation, which is made possible through Christ. That is it. Promises made to those of the covenant with Israel do not come with salvation.

Are you observing the Sabbaths, high holy days, and rituals observed by Jewish people? If not, you are not Jewish, and you have no claim of being of Israel. Even being spiritual Israel does not mean having everything of Israel.

Though a remnant of Israel will be saved, it is the remnant that will be all that is left of those of Israel, Romans 10:26 shows that they will all be saved. Those in Revelation 7:9 are before the throne of God, they have come out of the great tribulation, this means they are not in the land of Israel.

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Thanks Fred, for bring this thread back. I hope you and others will read the discussion I had with Biblewriter in 2017. He isn't around now, but I am and I have not changed any of my beliefs; all soundly based on the scriptures.

What you say above is not right, as there is only one Israel of God. John 17:2-23, Ephesians 4:4-6. +
That a group of people in the Middle East have called themselves the Jewish State of Israel, does not make them God's people. God has allowed them to be there for His purposes, while He works with the real Israelites; the faithful Christian believers, still scattered among the nations.

Romans 2:29 makes this truth quite clear and Paul states that only a remnant of the Jews will be saved. Romans 9:27
Thinking that all those people who have taken the name of Israel, will be saved, constitutes a Biblical contradiction and is simply impossible from many angles.

As for Judaism, that religion is no better than Islam, they both worship a 'god', who is not the God of the Bible.