If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

zoidar

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A deed is something you do. Repentance fits that. It would be a deed of righteousness. He’s saying that there’s nothing we can do that’s worthy of salvation.

Somehow, despite evidence to the contrary, you keep finding that one thing.

I think we leave it for now. Thanks for the chat! See you around!

Christ love,
Peter
 
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Neostarwcc

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There are many things God predestines and so they will happen just as He planned. Everything else is perfectly foreknown by God from the beginning of time, but that does not mean God foreordained everything to happen. God can tell Paul what will happen to him and what he must/will do in Paul’s future. Paul’s future is an unchangeable historic happening for God at the end of time, but since God is outside of time and omnipresent all the historic happenings of humans are known perfectly by God throughout all of time.

Perhaps, but consider this Psalm from David (Psalm 139:16).

It says:
"Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them."

It does make you wonder. That if all of the days formed for us are written down in a book (David doesn't specify which one unfortunately and there are many books that God has written) before one of them came to be, if we really can live against God's will. In my personal experience during the worst of times during my childhood after my family moved to New York from Ontario and my dad used to physically and verbally abuse me nearly everyday up until I was about 27 years old. I wondered this nearly every day I believed in God. Then all of a sudden God finds and changes me a little over a year later at just the right time in my life. And a few months later I meet my wife at just the right time in her life and my life (She was 21 years old and the year before had been dating someone else for a few years. And if I met her when she was 18 my father in law probably wouldn't have given her the freedom to marry me). I also over the years have pursued a degree in Computer science over 6 times. I've failed to get one all six times, and if I had a degree in Computer Science I wouldn't be able to serve God as I do today. It does make you wonder. If I failed at life or if God had me just the way he wanted me at just the time he wanted me.

It does seem strange that each and every person who God means to be an ambassador for him, is one and does much fruitful work. And then there are lazy but maybe still saved Christians out there. Why wouldn't every Christian out there want to work for Christ and get all kinds of eternal heavenly rewards and be praised by God instead of being rebuked by him? Shouldn't all of us want to appear before Christ unashamed?
 
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bling

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Perhaps, but consider this Psalm from David (Psalm 139:16).

It says:
"Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them."

It does make you wonder. That if all of the days formed for us are written down in a book (David doesn't specify which one unfortunately and there are many books that God has written) before one of them came to be, if we really can live against God's will. In my personal experience during the worst of times during my childhood after my family moved to New York from Ontario and my dad used to physically and verbally abuse me nearly everyday up until I was about 27 years old. I wondered this nearly every day I believed in God. Then all of a sudden God finds and changes me a little over a year later at just the right time in my life. And a few months later I meet my wife at just the right time in her life and my life (She was 21 years old and the year before had been dating someone else for a few years. And if I met her when she was 18 my father in law probably wouldn't have given her the freedom to marry me). I also over the years have pursued a degree in Computer science over 6 times. I've failed to get one all six times, and if I had a degree in Computer Science I wouldn't be able to serve God as I do today. It does make you wonder. If I failed at life or if God had me just the way he wanted me at just the time he wanted me.

It does seem strange that each and every person who God means to be an ambassador for him, is one and does much fruitful work. And then there are lazy but maybe still saved Christians out there. Why wouldn't every Christian out there want to work for Christ and get all kinds of eternal heavenly rewards and be praised by God instead of being rebuked by him? Shouldn't all of us want to appear before Christ unashamed?
You bring up an excellent point about the fact there are many Christians at different Spiritual levels, instead of God making the huge difference and making all Christians really Christ like.

The very poetic verse in a David Psalms does not contradict the idea God at the end of time knows everything historically that has gone on throughout time and provides that information to Himself at the beginning of time.

David is the one referring to the idea “when as yet there was none of them”, since for David they had not happened, but for God at the end of time they are history.

You have observed God working throughout your life directing your path which God does for all mature adults, I would say 99.9% of all decisions and actions are the direct or indirect actions of God, but that does not mean you did not have a free will choice to accept or reject God’s charity as charity.

We look back and seem to be able to say: “God put me in this or that position and if He had not done that, I would have been hell bound”. But we do not really know that, because it is not so much where you windup as it is what you do when you windup where you are.

I have taught Bible to prisoners who had all kinds of excuses why they wound-up in prison, but as it turned out they became Christians in prison under the worst of conditions. Some became some of the strongest Christians I have ever met, taking beatings, constantly witnessing, having everything taken from them: praying, studying, helping others and being Spirit led way beyond my ability.
 
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Yesha

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I'll respond to your last question first. If all means ALL then I would have to concede that even Satan and his angels will be eventually reconciled to God although I'm not comfortable with that idea but I think consistency is requisite.

I greatly respect your effort to be consistent in your theology. I disagree with you on this point but can understand how you came to this conclusion given your stated interpretations. I am curious to hear your thoughts on Hebrews 2:14-18.

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. - Hebrews 2:14-18 (ESV)

The basic question boils down to this: Is God sovereign? If God, the creator of all things is omniscient and omnipotent among other things, can He accomplish whatever he desires/wills? I think the answer to those questions is yes.

While there is much to discuss concerning God’s sovereignty and his decree, I agree with you in the essence of your question. Nothing is impossible for God who wills according to his pleasure.

If this be true then we need to scrutinize the scriptures to determine what is God's will and purpose for His creation and use that as the basis and foundation for formulating our doctrinal views, in this case regarding soteriology. You believe that the doxologies are not soteriologic but Christologic. I believe that to be a logical fallacy (either-or) argument as it is not one other the other, but both. Because the Lamb is worthy of all honor, glory, etc., all will thus bow down to Him. The former does not negate the latter.

I admire that you turn to Scripture to determine your theology! I would like to clarify what I meant by my comment on the doxologies. You are certainly correct that soteriology and Christology need not be an either-or dichotomy. If all of Scripture is interwoven, then a proper soteriology requires a proper Christology and vice versa. I believe that there is an interdependency among all doctrines revealed within Scripture, even if we do not see them straightaway.

I do not think that Revelation 5:13 excludes a soteriologic interpretation because it is Christologic, rather I do not believe that the context frames it in a soteriologic setting. The purpose of Revelation 5 to my eyes is to show that Christ is supreme over all creation and that all glory and honor is due him, and ultimately will be given to him, by all creatures he has made.

It seems to me that we have put the cart before the horse. We acknowledge that God loves the whole world and wants all men to be saved yet we deny that His attributes are able to accomplish His stated purpose. What is His stated purpose?

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Col 1:19-20

Since reconciliation is God's stated goal, the whole of Scripture as well as our beliefs must align itself with God's stated goal. Our current, popular soteriological beliefs do not conform with God' stated purpose as the popular belief is that only a minority of souls, and a small minority at that, will ultimately be reconciled with God. Something is wrong with this picture.

Friend, we would seem to differ here on what reconciliation means in the context of Colossians 1:19-20. I think Paul is communicating that all things will be brought under subjection and into harmony with Christ by his blood. In other words, Christ is the one through whom God is pleased to subdue his adversaries and redeem his elect. Reconciliation intimates the total victory that God accomplished on the cross.

Regarding the Isaiah passage. When do you suppose this takes place? "Survivors of the nations" is a reference to the future when Jesus returns to earth at his 2nd coming as described in Matt 25:31-46. This passage refers the the sheep and goat nations/gentiles who survived the tribulation and are still alive at Jesus' return. The surviving gentiles/sheep who did good to the brethren during the tribulation are allowed to live in the Millennial kingdom as their reward (v.34) while the surviving gentiles/goats who did bad to the brethren during the tribulation are sent to the lake of fire (v.41). The goats here are the ones referenced to in Isa 45:24 as being "ashamed all who were incensed against him." Note also that Isa 45:25 states that all of Israel shall be JUSTIFIED and shall glory." All means ALL.

Thus the purpose of the Millennial age is to give the surviving gentiles the opportunity to turn to God and be saved (Isa 45:22). It is also the age of time when all of Israel will be saved as prophesied in such verses as Rom 11:26-27; Jer 31:33-34; Zech 8:7-8.

Thus we see God working out his purpose to save and reconcile all to Himself accomplished through ages of time with each age have his specific plan for different groups of people.

I think this broaches a topic that I am not at present adequately equipped to address fully. Briefly, I do not hold a premillennial eschatology or a dispensational hermeneutic. I believe that the millennial kingdom is the present reign of Christ at the right hand of the Father, a position he assumed at his ascension and will maintain until he returns to judge the living and the dead. The Old Testament presents eschatological scenery veiled in types and shadows. Properly interpreting it requires us to understand how Christ and the apostles in the New Testament reveal what was concealed in the Old. However, I have not sufficient knowledge to properly expound on these things and will respect your views as stated. :)
 
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setst777

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Nothing there says that repentance precedes regeneration.

After hearing the Gospel, you must repent first before you can ever believe Jesus.

Repentance is a change of mind, purpose, and life based on the knowledge of the Gospel Message. We respond to the Gospel Call after repenting, then renouncing the old master, and then, and only then, will the faith we place in Lord Jesus be genuine - to listen to and follow Him as our rightful Master and Lord.

Repentance, therefore, precedes Faith.

Faith precedes regeneration, for we are only regenerated when the Spirit comes to indwell us. The Spirit only indwells those who truly believe to lead them their faithfulness into a New Life.

John 7:37-39 (WEB)
...37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! [Note: Lord Jesus command those who are thirsty to come and drink]
...38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

You must believe first before regeneration occurs “within him will flow rivers of living water” only by faith.

We only receive the Spirit by an obedient faith in Lord Jesus

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

However to be regenerated by the Spirit, your faith must be genuine - a faith in which you renounce the old life and then follow Jesus – which is to walk in the Spirit, because the Spirit will only lead those who faithfully follow Jesus – For the Scriptures teach that regeneration, the new creation, or the salvation of God occurs only by believing – a Gospel Faith demonstrated by listening to and following Jesus – walking by His Spirit that we receive by faith (2 Cor 5:15-17; Gal 5:13-24; Rom 8:1-4; Rom 8:12-14; Gal 6:7-10).

2 Corinthians 5:15-17 (WEB) 15 He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again. . . 17 ***Therefore (for this reason just given) if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

Galatians 5:16-25 (WEB)
... 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
... 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.
... 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,[a] 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
... 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
... 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-14 (WEB) 12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

Galatians 6:7-10 (WEB)
... 7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption.
But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
... 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do what is good toward all men, and especially toward those who are of the household of The Faith.

Blessings,
Steven
 
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Hammster

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After hearing the Gospel, you must repent first before you can ever believe Jesus.

Why would someone even think they needed to repent if the didn’t believe Jesus was who He said He was?
 
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Hammster

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However to be regenerated by the Spirit, your faith must be genuine - a faith in which you renounce the old life and then follow Jesus – which is to walk in the Spirit, because the Spirit will only lead those who

If you have faith, you are justified. So in your theology, justification precedes regeneration.
 
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Oldmantook

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Thank you for your reasoned replies as I appreciate the tenor of your responses. You wrote:
I am curious to hear your thoughts on Hebrews 2:14-18.

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. - Hebrews 2:14-18 (ESV)
I am guessing you are referring to this part: "...he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver to those all who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery." The Greek word for destroy is katargeo.
καταργέω (katargeō)
Strong: G2673

GK: G2934

to render useless or unproductive, occupy unprofitable, Lk. 13:7; to render powerless, Rom. 6:6; to make empty and unmeaning, Rom. 4:14; to render null, to abrogate, cancel, Rom. 3:3, 31; Eph. 2:15; to bring to an end, 1 Cor. 2:6; 13:8; 15:24, 26; 2 Cor. 3:7; to destroy, annihilate, 2 Thess. 2:8; Heb. 2:14; to free from, dissever from, Rom. 7:2, 6; Gal. 5:4

As seen above, katargeō has a range of meaning from to render useless or to destroy/annihilate. Given my belief, "render useless" makes sense as the devil is ultimately not destroyed but is instead rendered useless, unproductive, unprofitable and powerless as defined above. Also interesting is the last part of that verse which references "all who were through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery." I take the word all to mean ALL as we were all at one time in fear of death and subject to lifelong slavery. Therefore Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of ALL the people.

I do not think that Revelation 5:13 excludes a soteriologic interpretation because it is Christologic, rather I do not believe that the context frames it in a soteriologic setting. The purpose of Revelation 5 to my eyes is to show that Christ is supreme over all creation and that all glory and honor is due him, and ultimately will be given to him, by all creatures he has made.
I agree with you. He deserves all glory and honor that is due to Him by all creatures he has made as you stated. The difference though is that you have to qualify your statement "by all creatures he has made" (in regards to humans) as pertaining only to those humans who are saved/believed. My view requires no qualification or caveat as "all" will eventually bow their knees and confess that Jesus is Lord with their tongues.

Friend, we would seem to differ here on what reconciliation means in the context of Colossians 1:19-20. I think Paul is communicating that all things will be brought under subjection and into harmony with Christ by his blood. In other words, Christ is the one through whom God is pleased to subdue his adversaries and redeem his elect. Reconciliation intimates the total victory that God accomplished on the cross.
Indeed we disagree. My question to you though is that how can all things be brought "into harmony with Christ by his blood" when those in the lake of fire are either eternally tormented or ultimately annihilated as popularly believed? Either option does not allow for harmony with Christ as they are forever separated from Christ.

I think this broaches a topic that I am not at present adequately equipped to address fully. Briefly, I do not hold a premillennial eschatology or a dispensational hermeneutic. I believe that the millennial kingdom is the present reign of Christ at the right hand of the Father, a position he assumed at his ascension and will maintain until he returns to judge the living and the dead. The Old Testament presents eschatological scenery veiled in types and shadows. Properly interpreting it requires us to understand how Christ and the apostles in the New Testament reveal what was concealed in the Old. However, I have not sufficient knowledge to properly expound on these things and will respect your views as stated. :)
Yes given our disparate views it would be mixing apples with oranges. However here is some food for thought. One of the reasons I believe in a future, literal millennial kingdom of God on earth with Jesus as its ruler is verses like Rev 2:26. And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations.
Jesus is addressing the church/saints and promises them authority over the nations/gentiles provided they overcome. In my opinion, this occurs during the millennium. It has not occurred in the past, nor in the present and thus awaits its fulfillment in the future. It happens after the tribulation period.
Rev 21:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
 
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setst777

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Why would someone even think they needed to repent if the didn’t believe Jesus was who He said He was?

That was the reason for the Gospel - to teach them these things.

Romans 10:17 (WEB) 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
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setst777

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If you have faith, you are justified. So in your theology, justification precedes regeneration.

That is true. Consider Abraham, and all those who put their faith in God in the Old Covenant... They all did so before the New Covenant in the Spirit; yet, all of them God justified by faith. Regeneration is a New Covenant Gospel reality that was not available in the Old Covenant.

John 7:37-39 (WEB)
... 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! [Note: Lord Jesus command those who are thirsty to come and drink]
... 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 ... ... But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.
 
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com7fy8

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As seen above, katargeō has a range of meaning from to render useless or to destroy/annihilate. Given my belief, "render useless" makes sense as the devil is ultimately not destroyed but is instead rendered useless, unproductive, unprofitable and powerless as defined above.
And @Neostarwcc < since you started this thread.

Paul says ones will be "punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" > in 2 Thessalonians 1:9.
 
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Yesha

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Thank you for your reasoned replies as I appreciate the tenor of your responses.

Of course! And you have been gentlemanly in your thoughtful replies, which have been greatly edifying.

You wrote:

I am guessing you are referring to this part: "...he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver to those all who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery." The Greek word for destroy is katargeo.

καταργέω (katargeō)

Strong: G2673

GK: G2934

to render useless or unproductive, occupy unprofitable, Lk. 13:7; to render powerless, Rom. 6:6; to make empty and unmeaning, Rom. 4:14; to render null, to abrogate, cancel, Rom. 3:3, 31; Eph. 2:15; to bring to an end, 1 Cor. 2:6; 13:8; 15:24, 26; 2 Cor. 3:7; to destroy, annihilate, 2 Thess. 2:8; Heb. 2:14; to free from, dissever from, Rom. 7:2, 6; Gal. 5:4

As seen above, katargeō has a range of meaning from to render useless or to destroy/annihilate. Given my belief, "render useless" makes sense as the devil is ultimately not destroyed but is instead rendered useless, unproductive, unprofitable and powerless as defined above.

My sincere apologies for not clarifying my question! I hope it was not too much trouble to look up the Greek and all those references. I present the text again with my interpretation.

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. - Hebrews 2:14-18 (ESV)

I think the author of Hebrews is demonstrating the necessity of the incarnation of the Son in order that he might intercede as a “merciful and faithful high priest” and “propitiate for the sins of the people”. To clarify this point, the writer states that “it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham”. Who are those offspring? I reckon them the elect of God from all tribes, tongues, and nations. If so, then it seems that angels and humans are distinguished as to the object of the intercessory and propitiatory work of Christ. Christ took on human flesh to bear the burden of human sin. The angelic realm is excluded from his redemptive work, which I think would undermine the position that universal reconciliation, inclusive of the devil and his angels, indicates universal salvation.

Let me know if that makes sense. I look forward to your thoughts!

Also interesting is the last part of that verse which references "all who were through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery." I take the word all to mean ALL as we were all at one time in fear of death and subject to lifelong slavery. Therefore Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of ALL the people.

I think the referent of “all those” in verse 15 are the “children” at the beginning of verse 14. These same are referred to as the “offspring of Abraham” in verse 16. My interpretation from above would not see the “all” as every individual person who has ever lived, but every person whom the Father has given to the Son. These he calls his children and are offspring of Abraham by faith.

I agree with you. He deserves all glory and honor that is due to Him by all creatures he has made as you stated. The difference though is that you have to qualify your statement "by all creatures he has made" (in regards to humans) as pertaining only to those humans who are saved/believed. My view requires no qualification or caveat as "all" will eventually bow their knees and confess that Jesus is Lord with their tongues.

Allow me to put forth an alternative. I suggest that bowing the knee and confessing Jesus as Lord is not something that only the saints can do. I hold that the reprobate can, and will, do this very thing, though they will not do so in loving submission to the Son. I would agree with you that “all” will eventually bow their knees and confess. However, I think that this will happen in one of two ways, either out of love for Christ or out of overwhelming, yet impenitent awe of his Lordship.

Indeed we disagree. My question to you though is that how can all things be brought "into harmony with Christ by his blood" when those in the lake of fire are either eternally tormented or ultimately annihilated as popularly believed? Either option does not allow for harmony with Christ as they are forever separated from Christ.

Great question! I see reconciliation as referring to the victory of Christ over all things so that they are subjected to him, either willingly or not. For believers, this means redemption and adoption as sons. For unbelievers, this means condemnation and rejection as reprobate. If I may take liberty in inferring your position, it seems to me that you view reconciliation as equivalent to salvation. I think this may be the root of our disagreement. Forgive me in advance if I have misinterpreted you.

Yes given our disparate views it would be mixing apples with oranges. However here is some food for thought. One of the reasons I believe in a future, literal millennial kingdom of God on earth with Jesus as its ruler is verses like Rev 2:26. And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations.

Jesus is addressing the church/saints and promises them authority over the nations/gentiles provided they overcome. In my opinion, this occurs during the millennium. It has not occurred in the past, nor in the present and thus awaits its fulfillment in the future. It happens after the tribulation period.

Rev 21:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Thank you for sharing this as well! A thorough response would take me a lot of effort and far away from the topic at hand. I am happy to leave it that, if you would not mind, and consider what you have posted as food for thought. :)
 
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setst777

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Of course! And you have been gentlemanly in your thoughtful replies, which have been greatly edifying.

My sincere apologies for not clarifying my question! I hope it was not too much trouble to look up the Greek and all those references. I present the text again with my interpretation.

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. - Hebrews 2:14-18 (ESV)

I think the author of Hebrews is demonstrating the necessity of the incarnation of the Son in order that he might intercede as a “merciful and faithful high priest” and “propitiate for the sins of the people”. To clarify this point, the writer states that “it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham”. Who are those offspring? I reckon them the elect of God from all tribes, tongues, and nations. If so, then it seems that angels and humans are distinguished as to object of the intercessory and propitiatory work of Christ. Christ took on human flesh to bear the burden of human sin. The angelic realm is excluded from his redemptive work, which I think would undermine the position that universal reconciliation, inclusive of the devil and his angels, indicates universal salvation.

Let me know if that makes sense. I look forward to your thoughts!

I think the referent of “all those” in verse 15 are the “children” at the beginning of verse 14. These same are referred to as the “offspring of Abraham” in verse 16. My interpretation from above would not see the “all” as every individual person who has ever lived, but every person whom the Father has given to the Son. These he calls his children and are offspring of Abraham by faith.

Allow me to put forth an alternative. I suggest that bowing the knee and confessing Jesus as Lord is not something that only the saints can do. I hold that the reprobate can, and will, do this very thing, though they will not do so in loving submission to the Son. I would agree with you that “all” will eventually bow their knees and confess. However, I think that this will happen in one of two ways, either out of love for Christ or out of overwhelming, yet impenitent awe of his Lordship.

Great question! I see reconciliation as referring to the victory of Christ over all things so that they are subjected to him, either willingly or not. For believers, this means redemption and adoption as sons. For unbelievers, this means condemnation and rejection as reprobate. If I may take liberty in inferring your position, it seems to me that you view reconciliation as equivalent to salvation. I think this may be the root of our disagreement. Forgive me in advance if I have misinterpreted you.

Thank you for sharing this as well! A thorough response would take me a lot of effort and far away from the topic at hand. I am happy to leave it that, if you would not mind, and consider what you have posted as food for thought. :)

setst RE: The offspring of Abraham are those through history that would also believe like Abraham did.

Galatians 3:6-9 (WEB) 6 Even so, Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6] 7 Know therefore that those who are of faith are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you all the nations will be blessed.” [Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18] 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.

God, therefore, foresaw and chooses to save those who have the same faith that Abraham had. The humble will believe, while the proud will be obstinate in their own flesh.

Therefore,

Christ Jesus was sent to preach the Gospel to the humble - the spiritually crushed and heavy laden with sin and shame (Luke 4:18-19; Isaiah 61:1-2; Matthew 11:4-5; Matthew 11:28). These are the sheep God promised to save out of the world.

Blessings,
Steven
 
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Yesha

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setst RE: The offspring of Abraham are those through history that would also believe like Abraham did.

Galatians 3:6-9 (WEB) 6 Even so, Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6] 7 Know therefore that those who are of faith are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you all the nations will be blessed.” [Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18] 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.

God, therefore, foresaw and chooses to save those who have the same faith that Abraham had. The humble will believe, while the proud will be obstinate in their own flesh.

Therefore,

Christ Jesus was sent to preach the Gospel to the humble - the spiritually crushed and heavy laden with sin and shame (Luke 4:18-19; Isaiah 61:1-2; Matthew 11:4-5; Matthew 11:28). These are the sheep God promised to save out of the world.

Blessings,
Steven

Steven, your reply is welcomed! :)

I agree with you that "The offspring of Abraham are those through history that would also believe like Abraham did", but I do not think that it follows that "God, therefore, foresaw and chooses to save those who have the same faith that had". My view is that God, in eternity, chose a people for himself and predestined them to be redeemed by his Son apart from anything in or done by themselves. In other words, God did not choose his elect based on passive foreknowledge of who would have faith. He chose them according to the purpose of his sovereign will alone.
 
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setst777

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Steven, your reply is welcomed! :)

I agree with you that "The offspring of Abraham are those through history that would also believe like Abraham did", but I do not think that it follows that "God, therefore, foresaw and chooses to save those who have the same faith that had". My view is that God, in eternity, chose a people for himself and predestined them to be redeemed by his Son apart from anything in or done by themselves. In other words, God did not choose his elect based on passive foreknowledge of who would have faith. He chose them according to the purpose of his sovereign will alone.

I understand that is the way you believe.

After reading the Scriptures, I must conclude that God's glory is founded in Love. Therefore, for love to be genuine, it must be tested to be true even onto death - and that is how love is tested in Scripture, with Christ Jesus being the prime example. If a Sovereign and Loving God could have saved us by any other means than to strip himself of His glory, come down to live among sinful man, and then offer himself to sinful men to be tortured and crucified in the most humiliating and painful way, then I believe as Sovereign God would have done so.

I am impressed that a holy and loving God would create a world where people would make choices that cause so much suffering. Such sin grieves God's holy nature beyond what I can fathom, yet God created the world anyway. Yet, as Genesis 3:15 shows, God's plan all along for His creation was to save those out of the world who would truly love Him as He also loves us.

God foreknew these through time who would trust in God and walk in love. To these God foreknew, He predestined a great inheritance to live with Him in that love forever. To these one's God foreknew, he also called by the Gospel.

The Gospel God designed to be received by those who humble themselves, those who hope to be free from the bondage of their sinful lives, and begin a new life - a commitment to die to the old life, and then to live a new life by following Christ Jesus. That is what the Gospel offers the humble.

To these of faith, as described, and as represented in Baptism, God indwells by His Spirit to lead their faith to victory over sin, and then to guide them to live out their faith commitment to Lord Jesus - this is the New Life, and is salvation from sin and death.

That is how I see a Sovereign God working out His will as expressed and taught in His Holy Word.

Blessings,
Steven
 
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That was the reason for the Gospel - to teach them these things.

Romans 10:17 (WEB) 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Okay. But you said repentance comes before faith. Why would someone repent if they don’t believe that they need to?
 
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That is true. Consider Abraham, and all those who put their faith in God in the Old Covenant... They all did so before the New Covenant in the Spirit; yet, all of them God justified by faith. Regeneration is a New Covenant Gospel reality that was not available in the Old Covenant.

John 7:37-39 (WEB)
... 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! [Note: Lord Jesus command those who are thirsty to come and drink]
... 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 ... ... But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.
Why are you assuming that those who are thirsty aren’t regenerated?
 
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Oldmantook

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And @Neostarwcc < since you started this thread.

Paul says ones will be "punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" > in 2 Thessalonians 1:9.
I suggest you study the meaning of aiōnion. It is the adjectival form of the noun aiōn which means "age." Thus this adjective modifies "age" which is a finite, not unlimited span of time. Therefore aiōnion cannot mean "everlasting." Thus an accurate translation is "age-during" as in Young's Literal Translation.
who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
 
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Oldmantook

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Of course! And you have been gentlemanly in your thoughtful replies, which have been greatly edifying.



My sincere apologies for not clarifying my question! I hope it was not too much trouble to look up the Greek and all those references. I present the text again with my interpretation.

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. - Hebrews 2:14-18 (ESV)

I think the author of Hebrews is demonstrating the necessity of the incarnation of the Son in order that he might intercede as a “merciful and faithful high priest” and “propitiate for the sins of the people”. To clarify this point, the writer states that “it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham”. Who are those offspring? I reckon them the elect of God from all tribes, tongues, and nations. If so, then it seems that angels and humans are distinguished as to the object of the intercessory and propitiatory work of Christ. Christ took on human flesh to bear the burden of human sin. The angelic realm is excluded from his redemptive work, which I think would undermine the position that universal reconciliation, inclusive of the devil and his angels, indicates universal salvation.

Let me know if that makes sense. I look forward to your thoughts!



I think the referent of “all those” in verse 15 are the “children” at the beginning of verse 14. These same are referred to as the “offspring of Abraham” in verse 16. My interpretation from above would not see the “all” as every individual person who has ever lived, but every person whom the Father has given to the Son. These he calls his children and are offspring of Abraham by faith.



Allow me to put forth an alternative. I suggest that bowing the knee and confessing Jesus as Lord is not something that only the saints can do. I hold that the reprobate can, and will, do this very thing, though they will not do so in loving submission to the Son. I would agree with you that “all” will eventually bow their knees and confess. However, I think that this will happen in one of two ways, either out of love for Christ or out of overwhelming, yet impenitent awe of his Lordship.



Great question! I see reconciliation as referring to the victory of Christ over all things so that they are subjected to him, either willingly or not. For believers, this means redemption and adoption as sons. For unbelievers, this means condemnation and rejection as reprobate. If I may take liberty in inferring your position, it seems to me that you view reconciliation as equivalent to salvation. I think this may be the root of our disagreement. Forgive me in advance if I have misinterpreted you.



Thank you for sharing this as well! A thorough response would take me a lot of effort and far away from the topic at hand. I am happy to leave it that, if you would not mind, and consider what you have posted as food for thought. :)
Thanks for your replies. Yes it seems to boil down to how we define what it means to be reconciled to God. Since we start at different assumptions then our definitions follow suit resulting in difference of opinion. You are correct in assuming that my view equates reconciliation with salvation. Given our different starting points, perhaps I can address your objections in the following manner to better define my position. I've posted this before but don't know whether you've read it.

Since Col 1:19-20 states that it is the Father's will/purpose to reconcile all things unto himself, how we define "reconcile" is crucial in determining whether God will reconcile all as in ALL, or all as in the elect only while the reprobate in the lake of fire bow their knees and confess with their tongues while suffering punishment in the lake of forever.

I presume that you would acknowledge that God is just but the question is, is punishment the same thing as justice? We would both certainly agree that being condemned to the lake of fire qualifies as punishment but does it meet the demands of justice? For example, a rapist could rape a woman. He claims he is innocent and is not repentant for his crime but is found guilty and sentenced to prison. We would agree that the rapist is being punished but the rape victim will have to live with the consequences of what happened to her for the rest of her life. Is that justice as the victim has life-long consequences through no fault of her own? Suppose yet that a child was conceived and born as a result of the rape and the mother now has the responsibility to raise the child on her own while the perpetrator does nothing but sit in jail. Is that justice? Based on this example, it can be argued that there is a difference between punishment and justice as the former does not always meet the demands of the latter. The pertinent question to consider then is how can punishment also meet the demands of justice in this case? I submit that the answer demands that the perpetrator of the crime must willingly agree to make amends and seek reconciliation with the one whom he violated. He needs to admit guilt, seek forgiveness and make recompense for his crime - perhaps some sort of ongoing financial obligation/child support when he leaves prison and hopefully gets a job. The point is justice is only accomplished when the perpetrator participates in making amends toward the one he is guilty of offending.

I believe this human scenario approximates the picture of how God deals with us justly for our sins against Him. There is biblical precedent for this view of punishment/justice throughout the scriptures. For example Ex 22:1 states: "If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep." In the NT, Zacchaeus promises Jesus that he will restore fourfold those whom he has defrauded. These instances exemplify that justice demands not just the aspect of punishment but also recompense in order to make amends and fully bring about God's justice.

Given this scriptural evidence, we can apply this to the concept of an eternal hell. Being condemned to eternal punishment in the lake of fire certainly constitutes as punishment but it does not bring about God's justice because the inhabitants in the lake of fire have no opportunity to admit their guilt, seek forgiveness and seek to make recompense as it is "already too late." They must suffer the consequence of their sin forever. There is no chance for amends and reconciliation with God and therein lies the weakness with the retributive eternal punishment of hell. The view of the lake of fire that is most consistent with the scriptures and the character of God is the view where the lake of fire is for the purpose of chastisement where sinners recognize their sin against God, repent and seek forgiveness from the Lamb. Of course they, like all of us cannot repay their debt against God except that they believe in the sacrificial atonement of Jesus to make recompense for their sin. Like the rapist example it requires willing participation on their part as guilty sinners before a holy God. This reconciliation model of the lake of fire requires that the sinners must endure the purifying fires of hell in order that they may seek reconciliation with the Lamb who is also present in the lake of fire (Rev 14:10) so that one day God's ultimate goal of reconciliation with all is achieved.
 
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Why when Christ was ministering did he only refer to humanity in two categories Sheep (those who are under Gods grace and are written in the book of life) and Goats? (Those who are not written and suffer judgement for sinning against God)

Why did Jesus say in John 10 that he willingly is giving his life for the sheep? And that he will "give my life for the sheep?"

If everybody can freely come to Jesus why did Jesus plainly say that nobody can come to him unless God the Father unhardens their heart and grants it to them? John 6:44, 66.

I know John says in 1 john that Christ died for the sins of the whole world but there have been valid arguments around that for over 500 years now? Why are those arguments not considered or being considered as valid interpretations of scripture? And why is it the only verse in the bible that says that Jesus died for all?

If Christ died for the world why did he say during his famous prayer just before he was handed over to pilate in John 17:1-10 that he was not praying for the world but "for those you have given me for they are yours" and previously from that all he talks about in his prayer are those who God the Father has given him?

Why would God even have written a book of life from before the foundation of the world which contained the very sheep of God? If he didnt die for the sheep? To explain myself further what would be the point of him suffering for the sins of the whole world if only those written in his book inherit salvation?


Why does all of Roman's 9 support this point?

If God died for the entire world tgan why hasnt the entire world been given the chance ag salvation? People cannot deny that there are people called and considered "doomed" in scripture. Like the entire world in Noah's time when they refused to go into Noah's arc and believe him that the flood was coming. God said that he regretted making them and that they will perish. Also, if they had hope, why did God seal the door shut? Did they honestly have the chance at salvation? What about Judas,Pilate, the Pharisees and the very soldiers that tortured and crucified Jesus making salvation possible for you and I? True Jesus said "forgive them" but in other instances of scripture they were called without hope so that the glory of God may be revealed.

Also, notice during his 3 days in sheol Jesus only rescued the "righteous" dead and left the unrighteous dead there. If he left them there, not only why does God call them doomed but why didnt he give them the chance at salvation if everyone has the chance of getting saved? Why did Isaiah prophecy that most of israel was not Israel and would perish? Was there hope of salvation for them? When Isaiah called them doomed to destruction?

Yes, there are a lot of rebellious people shouting "Lord Lord" who think that the world does not run by God's plan. The idea of it being a plan is uncomfortable for our vanity.
 
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