Who Goes To Hell?

ClementofA

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How does this address my post?

Perhaps reading it again will help, as i thought it was self evident. Posted again below:

A parable is not to be taken literally. There is no verse which directly calls the grave/hell "prison" and no verse which calls "prison", "the grave/hell."

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna (hell). Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in ***PRISON***. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.

And none of this addresses the fact that when Jesus preached to anyone other than people of His own time it was not dead people in the grave/hell.
1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
If Jesus was preaching to dead spirits in the grave/hell then He was a failure only 8 people were saved, Noah and his family and they were not dead but alive.

1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
4:6 For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

A commentary opines:

"You will note:

1. The preaching of Christ was to the dead of Noah's day.

2. The dead of that day were "disobedient" and perished in the great flood (8 souls were saved)

3. Those who perished (all minus 8) were confined to "prison" aka "spirits in prison".

4. Jesus Christ "preached" to these "disobedient", aka "even the dead", the good news of His triumph.

5. This proclamation occurred after suffering for sin and "being quickened by the Spirit."

6. Net result= judgement "according" to "men in flesh">>>>leading to living "according to God in spirit." "


The rest of this copy/paste omitted i.e. GMac, Talbot, a commentary etc.
I do not click on links unless they are to standard references, historical evidence etc. not scribbling of some anonymous UR-ite.

Yet you post here your own amateur pet theories re aion/ios etc, & have no support from any "standard references, historical evidence etc" (to use your own words) or even amateur opinions in the past 3000 years. Not one. Nada. Zilch.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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213 Questions Without Answers:
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JulieB67

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If i recall i mentioned to you Julie that the issue is not really relevant since i showed you from Scripture that there are evil - non humans - in heavenly places & that Jesus' sacrifice was intended to reconcile ALL in the heavens. As follows:

It is relevant. And I without a shadow of a doubt believe that are evil, non humans in Heaven. I have never stated otherwise. As Paul teaches in Ephesians 6 that it will be Satan and these that we will do battle with in that "evil" day. And so we need to have the full armour on,
Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh ad blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

I do have a few more questions because I am honestly curious, do you plan to be prepared to stand against Satan and his in that "evil day" As Paul teaches? Or are you like so many others who believe this armour is for today in general. Even though it's clearly laid out that we are talking about Satan and the fallen angels when they are kicked out (Rev12) "evil day" Christ says that those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. This is what taking that stand means in the end times but was curious about to your opinion.

And what's God's purpose to have Satan and the angels back 2 more times to try and deceive the world? I wouldn't like someone's opinion pasted, but your's if you don't mind. If all are eventually reconciled, including Satan, what's the point?

I'm reposting the scripture you're talking about

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

My last question why do you think hell (any form or translation of it, doesn't matter) is not mentioned in this scripture?
 
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ClementofA

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It is relevant.

How is it relevant young girl Julie Born in '67 to Love Almighty & His intent to reconcile ALL in the heavens, including non human beings of wickedness?

And I without a shadow of a doubt believe that are evil, non humans in Heaven. I have never stated otherwise. As Paul teaches in Ephesians 6 that it will be Satan and these that we will do battle with in that "evil" day. And so we need to have the full armour on,
Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh ad blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

I do have a few more questions because I am honestly curious, do you plan to be prepared to stand against Satan and his in that "evil day" As Paul teaches?

Certainly, by the grace of Love Omnipotent, i plan to stand vs Satan every day, now & always. Re Eph.6:13, there are various different opinions on what "the day of evil" is:

Ephesians 6:13 Commentaries: Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

For example:

"Some expositors see here a reference to the final conflict of the Church. But the whole passage is concerned with a present and normal “wrestling” against present enemies. Cp. the words ch. Ephesians 5:16, “the days are evil.” "

Also Jesus said:

"Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." (Mt.6:34)

Compare:

Philippians 4:6
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

1 Peter 5:7
Cast all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you.

Or are you like so many others who believe this armour is for today in general. Even though it's clearly laid out that we are talking about Satan and the fallen angels when they are kicked out (Rev12) "evil day"

Even if you think this "evil day" is in the distant future, Eph.6:12 is in the present tense & puts the non human evil beings referred to presently in the heavens. So i don't see how you can get out of the fact that they are included in Col.1:16 & 20.

Christ says that those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. This is what taking that stand means in the end times but was curious about to your opinion.

I recently addressed that passage in a post to someone else here in this thread or one related to the same general topic:

Unless you have considered the context of the entire NT you have not shown me any context which I have ignored. Here is some more context for you to consider.
And this is a work in progress. I'm not finished yet.

Matthew 10:22
(22) You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:13
(13) but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Mark 13:13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
(13) Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Jesus specified a certain group will be saved, those who stand firm to the end, those who do not stand firm, will not be saved.


Which only refers to salvation at the time of "the end". In context "the end" has been interpreted as referring to such things as

(1) c. 70 AD when the Roman armies came & destroyed Jerusalem, but the Christians were "saved", i.e. delivered, IOW they escaped the Roman slaughtering of the Jews & the horrific things that came upon them then, or

(2) "the end" refers to the time of Christ's return when Christians will be saved & the lost cast into "hell" till they repent, are purified by Christ's blood & also become saved.

So the above out-of-context Scripture passages you posted fail as your "proof texts" against the biblical truth of universalism. Ditto for all the other lame "proof texts" you quoted.

You can't show a single place in the entire Bible where it says anyone will "never be saved":

"never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." Mark 9 Benson Commentary

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

Continued at:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum


And what's God's purpose to have Satan and the angels back 2 more times to try and deceive the world? I wouldn't like someone's opinion pasted, but your's if you don't mind. If all are eventually reconciled, including Satan, what's the point?

Evidently the Saviour of all uses evil beings (e.g. Satan) for His own purposes. For example, He loosed Satan on Job to destroy his family, his possessions & his own body. That was a test of Job and or to humble him. Compare 2 Chr.18:21, for another example among many similar ones in the Bible. See also 1 Cor.5:5; 1 Tim.1:19-20. Does that answer your questions?

My last question why do you think hell (any form or translation of it, doesn't matter) is not mentioned in this scripture?

I don't know. What do you think, JulieB67? Why, for that matter, are none of the 4 "hells" (Hades, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire) never once mentioned once in - any - of Paul's 13 epistles comprising half of the books in the New Testament?
 
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WebersHome

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Judas goats are trained for use in slaughterhouses and herd control. In stockyards, they lead sheep to slaughter; and are also used to lead other animals to specific pens and on to trucks. The term is a reference to the biblical traitor Judas Iscariot.

The phrase has also been used to describe goats utilized to locate feral goats targeted for eradication. They're usually outfitted with a transmitter, painted in red and then released. The goats then locate the remaining herds of feral goats, allowing hunters with tracking devices to find and exterminate them. The red paint marks the goat with the transmitter so the hunters know which one not to shoot.

You know what can be even worse than going to hell? Your own children following you there: and they trusted you.

Here's a sort of cute story I heard once. I don't know if it's true but I guess it sure is pertinent.

A thirsty farmer went out to his barn in the dead of night after a snowfall to sneak a pull from a hidden liquor bottle. Just as he got to the barn door he heard something behind him. Turning, the farmer recognized his little boy coming towards him. In amazement he asked the little guy how he ever managed to find his way out to the barn in the dark. His son replied: It was easy; I walked in your footsteps.

Can you just imagine the anguish that parents feel in the netherworld knowing their children walked in their ideological footsteps right down to hell? How do those parents cope with something like that on their conscience?

Luke 16:27-29 . . Then he said: I beg you therefore, father [Abraham] that you would send [Lazarus] to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.

That poor man had no way to contact his surviving kin and let them know his whereabouts; but his biggest fear was that he knew them all well enough to know that all five were coming down where he was-- there was nothing he could do to prevent it. It was like the survivors of the Titanic watching their loved ones go to Davy Jones and helpless to do anything about it. (I'm speaking in the past tense because that man's kin have all joined him by now.)

For some families, the only thing they have to look forward to in the afterlife is a sad reunion in fire and despair.
_
 
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JulieB67

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Again, you posted alot of different interpretations, commentaries, etc. Rarely have I seen your own opinion on something. Other than, "all reconciled" -that sums it up. You have no opinions on anything else about the end times? The OT and New have plenty teachings on them.

I pretty much have seen all the different theories about end times, etc when starting my own journey about 20 years ago when I left the Baptist church teachings. (70 AD......and so on...) I wasn't debating what I thought, I honestly was asking for your "own" opinion.

How is it relevant young girl Julie Born in '67 to Love Almighty & His intent to reconcile ALL in the heavens, including non human beings of wickedness?

I don't know. What do you think, JulieB67? Why, for that matter, are none of the 4 "hells" (Hades, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire) never once mentioned once in - any - of Paul's 13 epistles comprising half of the books in the New Testament?

It's revelant because the Luke scriptures tie into this scripture that you love to post so much,

COL 1:20 "and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross"

It says earth and heaven. Hell is not mentioned because as Christ teaches in the Luke scriptures that there is a gulf that can't be passed. And that's why the rich man can see Abraham. Hell is on the other side of paradise, but both are in the same realm. If it's not relevant to that fact, what is the relevance of Christ teaching us about the gulf/chasm and the fact that it can't be passed, but yet the rich man can see Abraham? Since you blew this off, again, what is "your" opinon on this parable?

Evidently the Saviour of all uses evil beings (e.g. Satan) for His own purposes. For example, He loosed Satan on Job to destroy his family, his possessions & his own body. That was a test of Job and or to humble him. Compare 2 Chr.18:21, for another example among many similar ones in the Bible. See also 1 Cor.5:5; 1 Tim.1:19-20. Does that answer your questions?
I'll just say it's the type of answer I expected.

Everyone's always suggesting something to read, watch or commentaries.

Well, I suggest a deeper study into what these very verses mean. And hint, being born again means being born from above. Being born of water -the womb, and Spirit -Christ.

John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God


John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."


John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven."

Of course read the entire chapter as to keep the context. But everyone is always posting John 3:16 and gloss over 13. It's says "even" the Son of Man. Meaning, no one can ascend up to heaven but he that came down from heaven. That's what it means to be born from "above".

You brought up Job, how about these verses to study and what it really means?

Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Job 38:5 "Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?"

Job 38:6 "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;


Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"



Job 40:15 "Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox."

And I'm mainly talking about the words "which I made with thee".

Ever wondered why God hated Esau from the womb?

How about this,

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Jeremiah 4:24 "I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

Ever wonder why there's no true north on a compass?

Jeremiah 4:25 "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."


Jeremiah 4:26 "I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."

And why not even go back to Genesis 1, verse 2

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Even the word 'was" should be translated to "became" without form.

Which should relate us to this scripture,

Isaiah 45:18 "for thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else."


II Peter 3:5; "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"
Notice the word- "by the word of God the heavens were of old" It's laid out in the Bible for us.

II Peter 3:6; "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water,
perished:"

Better yet, read the entire word. Once you do so, you will form own opinions and not have to use so many other commentaries. And yes, all of these verses tie in together if you can see it and they and the entire bible are indeed relevant to why Satan and the fallen angels will not be saved. It needs to be read like any other book and taken as a whole, so one can get the full understanding.

Yes, I am young to some, 52 years old. But at least I have read the entire bible (always still studying) and can form my own opinions. And yes, I do use the Strong's. It's not a commentary.

You don't have to post back about all of these verses, I'm sure I'm overloading everyone's donkey, but apparently according to some on this thread, I am one so....
 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
...I don't know. What do you think, JulieB67? Why, for that matter, are none of the 4 "hells" (Hades, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire) never once mentioned once in - any - of Paul's 13 epistles comprising half of the books in the New Testament?
Logical fallacy-argument from silence. "It must not exist because Paul never mentions it. So we can just ignore the 12 times Gehenna is mentioned, 11 times Hades is mentioned, 1 time tartarus is mentioned and 5 times the lake of fire is mentioned..
 
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ClementofA

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Logical fallacy-argument from silence. "It must not exist because Paul never mentions it. So we can just ignore the 12 times Gehenna is mentioned, 11 times Hades is mentioned, 1 time tartarus is mentioned and 5 times the lake of fire is mentioned..

Talk about a strawman argument fallacy.

That's your logical fantasy argument from a nonexistent make belief quote.
 
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ClementofA

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Again, you posted alot of different interpretations, commentaries, etc. Rarely have I seen your own opinion on something. Other than, "all reconciled" -that sums you up. You have no opinions on anything else about the end times? The OT and New have plenty teachings on them.

Perhaps if someone else comments on the "end times" or starts a thread on the subject in this forum - called Controversial Christian Doctrine - i'll have something to opine.

OTOH if that's your thing, there are forums here dedicated to such topics. For example, check out the topics here, including "Eschatology - Endtimes and Prophecy Forum": General Theology
And within that forum there are separate topics for Premil, Amil, Preterist, etc.

I pretty much have seen all the different theories about end times, etc when starting my own journey about 20 years ago when I left the Baptist church teachings. (70 AD......and so on...) I'm wasn't debating what I thought, I was asking for your "own" opinion.

Some universalists have more interest in the topic than i do:

Search results for 'preterism' - The Evangelical Universalist Forum

There are dozens of Bible topics people discuss. Not everyone is going to have an interest in all of them. The topic of this thread is "Who Goes To Hell?"

My main interests now are concerning (1) study of & sharing Good News & (2) walking & talking with Jesus.

It's revelant because the Luke scriptures tie into this scripture that you love to post so much,

COL 1:20 "and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross"

It says earth and heaven. Hell is not mentioned because as Christ teaches in the Luke scriptures that there is a gulf that can't be passed. And that's why the rich man can see Abraham. Hell is on the other side of paradise, but both are in the same realm. If it's not relevant to that fact. What is the relevance of Christ teaching us about the gulf/chasm and the fact that it can't be passed, but yet the rich man can see Abraham? Since you blew this off, again, what is "your" opinon on this parable?

Julie, how does any of that help you avoid the fact the non human beings in the heavens are included here:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Those non human beings were created by God were they not (see v.16 above)?

Those same non human beings of v.16 are included in v.20, are they not?

Then how can you avoid the fact that Christ's death was for their reconciliation with God?


It says earth and heaven. Hell is not mentioned because as Christ teaches in the Luke scriptures that there is a gulf that can't be passed.

I'd guess it may not be mentioned because Paul never - ever - mentions any of the 4 "hells" (Hades, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire) even once in - any - of Paul's 13 epistles comprising half of the books in the New Testament. And/or because Paul did not consider it useful or relevant or wise to add to the topic he was discussing.

And that's why the rich man can see Abraham. Hell is on the other side of paradise, but both are in the same realm. If it's not relevant to that fact. What is the relevance of Christ teaching us about the gulf/chasm and the fact that it can't be passed, but yet the rich man can see Abraham? Since you blew this off, again, what is "your" opinon on this parable?

Rather than posting my long post here, you can read it at this link:

Luke 16:19-31 the rich man in "hell" & Lazarus (Tanakh, Gospel) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum


Well, I suggest a deeper study into what these very verses mean. And hint, being born again means being born from above. Being born of water -the womb, and Spirit -Christ.

John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God


John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."


John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven."

Of course read the entire chapter as to keep the context. But everyone is always posting John 3:16 and gloss over 13. It's says "even" the Son of Man. Meaning, no one can ascend up to heaven but he that came down from heaven. That's what it means to be born from "above".

"what it means to be born from above"...means what Julie?


You brought up Job, how about these verses to study and what it really means?

Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Job 38:5 "Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?"

Job 38:6 "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;


Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"


Job 40:15 "Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox."

And I'm mainly talking about the words "which I made with thee".

What do you think that's about? Behemoth?

Ever wondered why God hated Esau from the womb?

Sure, i've read quite a bit on the subject, such as:

Search results for 'esau' - The Evangelical Universalist Forum i hated

Of course God loved Esau (John 3:16).

Everyone has been God's enemy & done "things in opposition to his will":

"for all have sinned" (cf. Rom.3:23)

"Christ died for the ungodly" (cf. Rom.5:6). Clearly God loves the ungodly. That includes Esau.

"while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (cf. Rom.5:7). Clearly God loves sinners. Even Esau.

"when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son" (Rom.5:10). Clearly God loves His enemies.

Likewise He told us to love our enemies (Mt.5:44). He Himself does the same:

so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Mt.5:45)

Lk.6:35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

God hates sin. God loves the sinner.

God hates the flesh, the old man, the fallen nature which men love & identify with.

God loves the human being, the inner person created in His image & likeness.

God therefore wills to save all humanity (1 Tim.2:4-6). Such would not be true if He hated any one. Even Esau.

"Consider again, “I loved Jacob and I hated Esau” (Malachi 1:2-3). How is the thing called God’s “hatred” of Esau displayed in the actual story? Not at all as we might expect. There is of course no ground for assuming that Esau made a bad end and was a lost soul; the Old Testament, here as elsewhere, has nothing to say about such matters. And, from all we are told, Esau’s earthly life was, in every ordinary sense, a good deal more blessed than Jacob’s. It is Jacob who has all the disappointments, humiliations, terrors, and bereavements. But he has something which Esau has not. He is a patriarch. He hands on the Hebraic tradition, transmits the vocation and the blessing, becomes an ancestor of Our Lord. The “loving” of Jacob seems to mean the acceptance of Jacob for a high (and painful) vocation; the “hating” of Esau, his rejection. He is “turned down,” fails to “make the grade,” is found useless for the purpose. So, in the last resort, we must turn down or disqualify our nearest and dearest when they come between us and our obedience to God. Heaven knows, it will seem to them sufficiently like hatred. We must not act on the pity we feel; we must be blind to tears and deaf to pleadings." C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves (1960; Harcourt Brace: 1991) 129.

Mere C.S. Lewis: Jacob loved, Esau "hated"


As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (Rom.9:13)

It seems "Jacob i loved"...could also have been hated of God, too:

Prov.6:

16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.


Romans 9:13 and at Malachi 1:3 God hated Esau....

"Cp. Genesis 29:33; Genesis 29:30, for proof that this word, in contrast with love, need not imply positive hatred, but the absence of love, or even less love. One verse there tells us that Jacob “hated” Leah, the other that he “loved Rachel more.” "

The meaning of "hate" here:

Luke_14:26
If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple.

is shown to mean not love them more than Jesus here:

Matthew 10:37
Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me;

"Regarding God's hate to Esau, Vincent's Word Studies has this to say:

The expression (hatred) is intentionally strong as an expression of moral antipathy. Compare Mat 6:24; Luk 14:26. No idea of malice is implied of course."

Rom 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

"There you have it, according to them. God does not just hate the sin, but the sinner as well. Case closed, we should all go home right? Wait a minute. Let's take a close look at that. Let's find out whether this verse really is about God hating a sinner:

Rom 9:10-13
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,
that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her (Rebecca), The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This is not even a scripture about God hating a sinner. According to the Bible, God had made a decision about Esau, and Jacob without them "having done any good or evil." "

"The quick answer is that Paul is quoting one of the prophets talking about how God is going to make Israel instead of Edom the prime nation in the world, even though both nations have been horribly sinful and both nations are going to be destroyed to death. Edom is restored later as prophesied elsewhere, but Israel will be restored first and in authority (and not due to Israel’s own righteousness but due to God’s gracious choice.)

"The Jacob/Esau story in Genesis behind this (Edom being the nation descended from Esau), involves Isaac blessing Esau in Jacob even though Jacob will be the inheritor; and Esau and Jacob eventually reconciling with each other in one of the most beautiful and famous stories of the Bible. So Esau isn’t hopelessly punished, no moreso than Jacob/Israel is (who acted like a satan to Esau in order to get the inheritance blessing from Isaac).

In a nutshell, universalism has...?


How about this,

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Jeremiah 4:24 "I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

Ever wonder why there's no true north on a compass?

No, but i expect a google search would tell me.

Jeremiah 4:26 "I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."

And why not even go back to Genesis 1, verse 2

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Even the word 'was" should be translated to "became" without form.

Which should relate us to this scripture,

Isaiah 45:18 "for thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else."

II Peter 3:5; "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

II Peter 3:6; "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water,
perished:"

Better yet, read the entire word. Once you do so, you will form own opinions and not have to use so many other commentaries.

I've read the Bible a lot, but also find commentaries/teachers in the body of Christ helpful & of course prayer & enlightenment indispensable.

And yes, all of these and the entire bible is relevant to why Satan and the fallen angels will not be saved.

Really? How is that?

It needs to be read like any other book and taken as a whole, so one can get the full understanding.

Yes, I am young to some, 52 years old. But at least I have read the entire bible (always still studying) and can form my own opinions. And yes, I do use the Strong's. It's not a commentary.

The concordance is not a commentary. But the definitions of words are merely men's opinions or simply telling you how the awful translation called KJV translated things. Or you may find other Strongs linked to other poor versions of the Bible.

Could most modern translations be in error?
 
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JulieB67

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Sure, i've read quite a bit on the subject, such as:

Search results for 'esau' - The Evangelical Universalist Forum i hated

Of course God loved Esau (John 3:16).

Everyone has been God's enemy & done "things in opposition to his will":

"for all have sinned" (cf. Rom.3:23)

"Christ died for the ungodly" (cf. Rom.5:6). Clearly God loves the ungodly. That includes Esau.

"while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (cf. Rom.5:7). Clearly God loves sinners. Even Esau.

"when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son" (Rom.5:10). Clearly God loves His enemies.

Likewise He told us to love our enemies (Mt.5:44). He Himself does the same:

This is not my point at all. It's not even the "hatred" that I'm talking about.

No, but i expect a google search would tell me.

Hopefully that's a joke.



This thread is about who goes to Hell and I for one feel as if the entire bible is not off limits to this subject. That's impossible.

I'm just saying every verse I posted ties in together towards the same subject and if anyone could see the subject I'm talking about. And that's the reason I chose those verses (there are many, many more) Obviously you don't. And that's what I wanted to see. Am I going to continue to debate on them- no. I've posted the verses, that is sufficient. Nothing "I" say at this point is going to make a difference. I just wanted to post for "all" to see there is more to God's word with studying. I'm always in the Word and want to continually try and be in it more. We have to. And yes, Satan is very much a part of this, has been from the "beginnning".
 
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ClementofA

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This is not my point at all. It's not even the "hatred" that I'm talking about.

What is it that you're talking about, Julie?

People here can't read your mind. Bring it into the light.

Prove all things:

1 Thess.5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Acts 17:2 As usual, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Paul didn't expect them to be mind readers.

This thread is about who goes to Hell and I for one feel as if the entire bible is not off limits to this subject.

Of course. That doesn't mean every verse is talking about "hell". Such as those you posted.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers
 
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JulieB67

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People here can't read your mind. Bring it into the light.

I posted the verses. Only God can bring scriptures to light. Yes, it's good to reason, but I've realized (finally) that this is not the thread to do so. All I get is commentaries, videos, man's word. Other people's opinions. It's a mess, no offense but traditions of men make void the word of God.

I'll go back to this quote,

There are dozens of Bible topics people discuss. Not everyone is going to have an interest in all of them. The topic of this thread is "Who Goes To Hell?"

My main interests now are concerning (1) study of & sharing Good News & (2) walking & talking with Jesus.

The bible isn't just that and should not be looked at it that way. That's why I posted all of those verses and wanted to know how they all tie into one another.

The entire bible should be read as a whole and has to be an interest for us proclaiming to be Christians. Yes, I know different topics interest people more than the other but I was just wanting an opinion in "Who goes to Hell thread" on how you think the end times will go down, there are many teachings by Christ, Paul, etc. And since you have read the bible, and the end times relate completely on who goes to Hell, wanted yours. You could not give it. And I'm talking about taking out our differences about whose saved or not in the end. I wanted an opinion on what you think Christ and Paul are teaching about in the gospels and 2nd Thessalonians. You posted different theories, etc. But had no opinion on it personally.

You've said there are other threads for that, but have no problem bringing C.S.Lewis, Albert Einstein, and so on....I've seen on this thread donkey butts, Judge Judy, you name it lol.

But when I ask for your opinion on something you can't give it. It seems as if you are all in on your doctrine and nothing else. And you're fine with it. So again, nothing I say about those verses will change that. Only the Word can.

And the verses I posted about were about the beginning, not the end but there is a truer subject matter there (what is it?) But again, we have to understand the beginning if we are going to understand the end. Entire bible, not just what we pick and choose.
 
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Der Alte

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• • •
>JulieB67>I posted the verses. I can't bring it into the light. Only God at this point can do that. Yes, it's good to reason, but I've realized (finally) that this is not the thread to do so. All I get is commentaries, videos, man's word. Other people's opinions. It's a mess, no offense but traditions of men make void the word of God.
I'll go back to this quote,

The bible isn't just that and should not be looked at it that way. That's why I posted all of those verses and wanted to know how they all tie into one another.
The entire bible should and has to be an interest for us proclaiming to be Christians. Yes, I know different topics interest people more than the other but I was just wanting an opinion in "Who goes to Hell thread" on how you think the end times will go down, there are many teachings by Christ, Paul, etc. And since you have read the bible, and the end times relate completely on who goes to Hell, wanted yours. You could not give it. And I'm talking about taking out our differences about whose saved or not in the end. I wanted an opinion on what you think Christ and Paul are teaching about in the gospels and 2nd Thessalonians. You posted different theories, etc. But had no opinion on it personally.
You've said there are other threads for that, but have no problem bringing C.S.Lewis, Albert Einstein, and so on....I've seen on this thread donkey butts, Judge Judy, you name it lol.
But when I ask for your opinion on something you can't give it. It seems as if you are all in on your doctrine and nothing else. And you're fine with it. So again, nothing I say about those verses will change that. Only the Word can.
And the verses I posted about were about the beginning, not the end but there is a truer subject matter there. But again, we have to understand the beginning if we are going to understand the end. Entire bible, not just what we pick and choose.<JulieB67<
• • •

I've been here since Slick Willy was POTUS and I realized early on that hard core members of certain heterodox religious groups are almost impossible to reach but I continue in hope that I can reach those who are on the fringe thinking about joining or quitting such groups. Since I am semi-retired X3 I have ample time to pursue this.
 
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JulieB67

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but I continue in hope that I can reach those who are on the fringe thinking about joining

Yes, this is the problem. And this doctrine takes away the rest of the bible and if one read the entire bible, they would see that this doctrine is false. Which is what I've tried to convey in my posts. I always have felt like fine, read and study the bible first and go from there. But if you can't even form "your own" opinion, than it makes one doubt if the bible has been read in it's entirety. Many of us have differences about certain things but if you don't know the subject matter well enough to even have a discussion, than what am I doing here? lol

Take care :)
 
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ClementofA

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And since you have read the bible, and the end times relate completely on who goes to Hell, wanted yours. You could not give it.

I could give it, but i'm not obligated to answer people's queries. Especially when people haven't answered my questions.

If you think "end times relate completely on who goes to Hell" & show universalism to be false, then feel free to try to prove that in answer to any posts i've posted here in the past years. Or feel free to start your own thread on the subject & i may join in the conversation.

Bon Voyage A Dieu!
 
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FineLinen

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And yes, Satan is very much a part of this, has been from the "beginnning".

"BUT WHEN A STRONGER THAN HE SHALL COME UPON HIM AND OVERCOME HIM, HE TAKES FROM HIM ALL HIS ARMOR, WHEREIN HE TRUSTED AND DIVIDES HIS SPOILS." -Luke 11:22) (Matt. 12: 29)-

1. Christ is stronger than Satan.

2. Christ will overcome Satan.

3.Christ will take from him all his armor.

4. Christ will divide (take away his spoils.)

Each of these statements contradicts the creed that teaches...

1. Evil is stronger than good.

2. That evil overcomes good in numberless cases.

3. That Satan's power for evil is not taken away, but lasts for ever.

4. That his spoils - the souls he has captured - are not divided & taken from him.

Our Lord's victory over the powers of evil does not consist in shutting up any of their captives in hell, but in liberating all.
 
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WebersHome

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People have been filtering into perdition not only since the time of Christ, but since before the Step Pyramid of Djoser, and even before the Flood. I won't speculate how many years that might be, but h.sapiens is thought by some to have achieved full behavioral modernity something like 50,000 years ago. (There's new findings suggesting that human existence goes as far back as 150-300,000 years) Anyway; whether that extends clear on back to Adam and Eve I have no clue; but just think: if it does, then Cain and others from his era have been down in the netherworld all this time.

It's difficult for the human mind to appreciate 50,000 years let alone 300,000. I've been on the Earth for just 76, and I've noticed that my childhood is so far in the past to me now as to seem more like a fantasy than a memory. But you know; when you're talking about eternity, 50,000 years isn't even a drop in the bucket. If it were a drop in the bucket, it would be a bucket with no bottom; which is roughly akin to the futility of a gnat attempting to drink up the Atlantic ocean.

But just think: time stands still in hell: it's for the now; it's an existence. People who arrived there yesterday didn't begin doing time in jail like Lindsay Lohan expecting to get out some day; nor is perdition a temporary tour of duty like shipping out to Afghanistan. No, people in hell are in it as perpetual residents; they're in a rut.

If only people in hell could see a light at the end of the tunnel; but that's just it: there is no end of the tunnel; it's like a Gerbil exercise wheel; within which the little rodents run and run and run but get nowhere.
_
 
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FineLinen

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People in hell are in it as perpetual residents; they're in a rut.

If only people in hell could see a light at the end of the tunnel; but that's just it: there is no end of the tunnel; it's like a Gerbil exercise wheel; within which the little rodents run and run and run but get nowhere.

Surely you are able to appreciate what it is like, Webers?

Your grasp of the Holy must be expanded !
 
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WebersHome

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People in hell go year, after year, after year, after year, with no relief from the pain and discomfort: no vacations, no recreation, no reading materials, and no hobbies-- there's absolutely nothing to do but reminisce and wring their hands. The mental atrophy, and the boredom that must result from that kind of mindless existence is beyond estimation.

In life, everybody enjoys God's blessings; even the really bad people. We're all breathing fresh air, basking in sunshine, drinking cool water, savoring tasty foods, listening to birds chirp, star gazing at night, throwing snow balls at each other in winter, river rafting, fishing, snow skiing, tending gardens, pruning shrubs, greeting friends during the holidays, spending days with grandkids; and all that sort of thing. In hell, there are no blessings of any kind at all: only perpetual sadness, vexation, despair, and want.

In hell's unruly society; it's reasonable to expect quarrels, bickering, hard feelings, vendettas, rivalry, selfishness, insensitivity, irritation, aggravation, and cruelty and ugly words exchanged between people. Is there really any good reason to be courteous and/or respect your fellow man's feelings and/or his human rights in hell; or to be kind, forgiving, affable, genial, courteous, cordial, charitable, altruistic, tolerant, generous, and patient?

I was once discussing the netherworld with a co-worker and he remarked: "Hell won't be so bad; I'll have plenty of friends down there". Well; first he'll have to find them. And the din: think of the volume of noise down there with all the wailing and sobbing, and the screams, shrieks, yelps, howls, and gnashing teeth. Conditions are really bad, and everyone is sad, blue, and despondent. After a few years of the conditions I'm describing, I should think most folks break, and go mad from the stress.

But just imagine bringing with you a craving for tobacco with none available. Or longing for a cocktail with no liquor in sight. A desire for music, with no way to produce it. A skill for writing, with no pen and paper. Yearning for a walk out in nature, with no world to do it in.

People in hell will never again smell a sea breeze, sit in the shade of a tree, take deep breaths of mountain-fresh air, play at sports, hear a bird chirp, see a sunset, watch a lunar eclipse, jog in the park, strum a guitar, enjoy a Christmas dinner with loved ones; nor make little pigs of themselves gobbling barbecued spare ribs and corn on the 4th of July.

Sports and recreation are gone: no more World Series, no more Super Bowl, no more Olympics, no more Las Vegas, no more Indian casinos, no more lottery, no more Lego World, no more Sea World, no more NASCAR, no more golf, no more surfing, et al.

No baths, no showers, no sleep, no TV or radio, no iPods or iPads, no computers, no
social networking, no texting, internet, no clean sheets, no breakfast, no lunch, and no dinner. No snacks, no gum, no candy, no flowers, no parks, no rivers, no snow, no seasons, no picnics, no malls, no fast food, no trades, no careers, no trendy fashions, no jewelry, no cosmetics, no concerts, no operas, and no hobbies; absolutely nothing of this world that brings people the pleasures and the satisfactions of just being alive.

No pets are in hell, nor flowers and vegetation of any kind. The absence of birds, fish, and animals of course precludes the citizens of hell ever again spending a day at the zoo. The one advantage of the lack of pets and vegetation in hell is the absence of fleas, mosquitoes, and allergies. I suppose you could say that's at least one good thing about hell. There's a bright side to everything I guess; even to that place.
_
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
"BUT WHEN A STRONGER THAN HE SHALL COME UPON HIM AND OVERCOME HIM, HE TAKES FROM HIM ALL HIS ARMOR, WHEREIN HE TRUSTED AND DIVIDES HIS SPOILS." -Luke 11:22) (Matt. 12: 29)-
1. Christ is stronger than Satan.
2. Christ will overcome Satan.
3.Christ will take from him all his armor.
4. Christ will divide (take away his spoils.)
Each of these statements contradicts the creed that teaches...
1. Evil is stronger than good.
2. That evil overcomes good in numberless cases.
3. That Satan's power for evil is not taken away, but lasts for ever.
4. That his spoils - the souls he has captured - are not divided & taken from him.
Our Lord's victory over the powers of evil does not consist in shutting up any of their captives in hell, but in liberating all.
Romans 1:24
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Psalms 81:11-12
11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.
12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
 
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