LDS Could the Mormon god have been a sinner?

He is the way

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Correct every word … including proper correct context.
Five
times Jesus talks about believing. But he never even mentions works. The topic being spoken about is everlasting or eternal life, i.e. being saved. This, Jesus says, comes solely through believing.

John 3:15-18
“That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God”

Scriptural states that we are saved without any of our doing:
“For by grace are we saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” Ephesians 2:8-9
_________________________________________________________________________

Why not obedience to the commandments? … Because of every word of God
.
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
You are still cherry picking. There are many words about the works:

(New Testament | John 14:12)

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

(New Testament | Matthew 5:16)

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

(New Testament | Titus 1:16)

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

(New Testament | Luke 3:8 - 9)

8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

(New Testament | James 2:14 - 18)

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

There are too many to post and too many to ignore.
 
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Peter1000

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Thank you for admitting you were misrepresenting your beliefs.

This "so-called" problem is only yours, not for Christians in general.

But your "plurality" does not include "only" those 3. Your doctrine has a "council of the gods", with an unknown/undefined number of gods in attendance. You have an infinite regression of "God the Fathers" who came before your current one. Plus, you have your Heavenly Mother(s) to account for. Yes, you do have a god problem.
I have never misrepresented our beliefs, so don't try to take advantage of "I admit that".


Yes it is still a Christian problem, you will not admit it. You too believe in 3 distinct Persons.
The word "Persons" was substituted for "Gods" so that you could technically walk around the problem of believing in many Gods which the pagans and the Jews threw at your doctors and scholars and philosophers of the Christian religion around the time of the Nicean council. It was a brilliant tactical display to crunch all 3 Gods into 1 God, and then call them distinct Persons. Which, BTW, the bible never calls them.

So don't talk to me about multiple gods, you have them too, you will just not admit it.

Yes, there are many Gods and Lords as Paul states. Yes there was a council of Gods that overseen the beginning of this earth and gave our God power and authority to govern it. It is to this God, and this God only that we know, and worship, along with his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. So yes we know about other gods and lords, but for us there is only one that we worship. That is no problem biblically, because the bible says the same thing that I just said, almost word for word.

So you need to focus less on our problem, and focus on how you can just worship 1 God like the Jews, or the Sabellians, because your 1 God of 3 distinct gods is the Nicean, Alexandria Egyptian God, but not the God of the bible.
 
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Peter1000

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Your unwillingness to hear isn't Biblical Christians responsibility to debate you from despite multiple answers given over many repeated times through out the various different OP's and \ or respondents other than myself.

btw: Jesus too didn't bother answering trap questions either.
Oh he answered them, and frustrated the questioners. You on the other hand have refused to answer, for the reason I gave.
 
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Peter1000

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Each of those are the truth when correctly understood in and through Biblical Christianity … something that you yourself openly reject.
IOW a non answer. These 3 scriptures are at the very heart of the issue. You have determined not to answer because you know it is difficult from your Christian background to reconcile the 3. I do know how to reconcile them, and I believe in all 3 just as they stand.

So this I will tell you, unless you believe in Jesus Christ, and repent and are baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, as the bible commands in those 3 scriptures, you will never enter into the kingdom of God.

Now tell me how and where from the scripture that I am wrong.
 
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Peter1000

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Correct every word … including proper correct context.
Five
times Jesus talks about believing. But he never even mentions works. The topic being spoken about is everlasting or eternal life, i.e. being saved. This, Jesus says, comes solely through believing.

John 3:15-18
“That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God”

Scriptural states that we are saved without any of our doing:
“For by grace are we saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” Ephesians 2:8-9
_________________________________________________________________________

Why not obedience to the commandments? … Because of every word of God
.
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Why do you always forget Ephesians 2:10? Because it does talk of good works that we are to walk in. Why do you shy away good works?
 
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twin.spin

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Oh he answered them, and frustrated the questioners. You on the other hand have refused to answer, for the reason I gave.
Jesus didn't debated them … they were exposed for what they were:
  • Ye hypocrites
  • Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers
 
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twin.spin

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IOW a non answer. These 3 scriptures are at the very heart of the issue. You have determined not to answer because you know it is difficult from your Christian background to reconcile the 3. I do know how to reconcile them, and I believe in all 3 just as they stand.

So this I will tell you, unless you believe in Jesus Christ, and repent and are baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, as the bible commands in those 3 scriptures, you will never enter into the kingdom of God.

Now tell me how and where from the scripture that I am wrong.
It's not difficult, it's redundant to repeat.
Again:
--- Biblical Christianity focus: that through the power of God's Word we are turned from sin (focus on self) towards focus on God and His free forgiveness

--- Mormonism focus: The Mormon plan of Salvation, the increasing focus on self
  • my worthiness
  • my works
  • my conditional forgiveness
  • my godhood
  • and my eventual glory
 
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twin.spin

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Why do you always forget Ephesians 2:10? Because it does talk of good works that we are to walk in. Why do you shy away good works?
We don't shy from it at all, Biblical Christianity focus of a good work is ultimately to glorify God.

Mormonism's focus of a good work is ultimately the greater the sacrifice, the greater the work, the greater the increase to prove worthiness and greater progression to godhood which hopefully then when we will have the glory of a god.
 
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He is the way

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We don't shy from it at all, Biblical Christianity focus of a good work is ultimately to glorify God.

Mormonism's focus of a good work is ultimately the greater the sacrifice, the greater the work, the greater the increase to prove worthiness and greater progression to godhood which hopefully then when we will have the glory of a god.
Everyone will be judges on their works

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


(New Testament | 1 Peter 1:17)

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

(New Testament | Revelation 20:12 - 13)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
 
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twin.spin

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Everyone will be judges on their works

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


(New Testament | 1 Peter 1:17)

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

(New Testament | Revelation 20:12 - 13)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
I probably shouldn't point out the hypocrisy of you accusing others of cherry picking but since works scriptures is all you're relying on, then …
How's your agency score card looking? ...
How's your righteousness ladder climbing effort? ...
How's your forgiveness lately? ...​

1_9JoOfMcpLY1M6TpfbUauug.gif


Mormonism: Strive - "do all you can do" to become perfect.
Mormonism: We are made righteous through our works.
Mormonism: "It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when."

 
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He is the way

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I probably shouldn't point out the hypocrisy of you accusing others of cherry picking but since works scriptures is all you're relying on, then …
How's your agency score card looking? ...
How's your righteousness ladder climbing effort? ...
How's your forgiveness lately? ...​

View attachment 277173

Mormonism: Strive - "do all you can do" to become perfect.
Mormonism: We are made righteous through our works.
Mormonism: "It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when."
The Bible is my witness:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:17 - 19)

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

(New Testament | 1 Peter 5:2 - 10)

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

(New Testament | 1 John 2:3 - 6)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

(New Testament | John 17:3)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
 
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Ironhold

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I probably shouldn't point out the hypocrisy of you accusing others of cherry picking but since works scriptures is all you're relying on, then …
How's your agency score card looking? ...
How's your righteousness ladder climbing effort? ...
How's your forgiveness lately? ...​

View attachment 277173

Mormonism: Strive - "do all you can do" to become perfect.
Mormonism: We are made righteous through our works.
Mormonism: "It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when."


Quikrete 80 lb. Concrete Mix-110180 - The Home Depot

This is Quikrete, a popular name brand of concrete mix.

By some estimates I've seen, the metal plates Joseph Smith worked with would have been about 90 pounds, or about what one of these bags of concrete mix weigh.

Imagine that each morning you have to go out and move a bag of this concrete mix from one spot to another. The first day you might struggle with the load, especially if you're not used to carrying something of that size. But what happens once you hit day seven? Or day one hundred?

After a while your body is going to slowly get stronger from moving that weight around, and past a certain point you might even be able to move two bags just as easily as one.

I've got a bad vertebrae and yet even I can heft one of those for a short distance.

When you look at the metaphor you tried to raise through this light, it rather changes the perspective, no?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I find it fascinating that if we consider Heavenly Father was exactly like we were at one point (which LDS Prophets imply directly), he achieved salvation without the need of Jesus. I wonder then why we need Jesus in the Mormon view of the universe if Heavenly Father was able to achieve salvation on his own? Mormons don't like to talk about heavenly Grandfather but it seems they must necessarily posit his existence if they want Salvation to depend entirely on Heavenly Father. That is there is an eternal cycle of Gods saving their children. Without such a cycle then it appears divinity can be achieved in other ways.
 
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Peter1000

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Jesus didn't debated them … they were exposed for what they were:
  • Ye hypocrites
  • Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers
Yes he did not debate, and he did expose them for what they were.

He did not debate them because they walked away defeated. You have walked away from post 64 without reconciling the 3 scriptures.
 
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Peter1000

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We don't shy from it at all, Biblical Christianity focus of a good work is ultimately to glorify God.

Mormonism's focus of a good work is ultimately the greater the sacrifice, the greater the work, the greater the increase to prove worthiness and greater progression to godhood which hopefully then when we will have the glory of a god.
Why must your good works focus on glorifying God, but ours is to glorify ourselves. Why is that? Are you afraid of us? Do you need to find it necessary to put down our good works because somehow your good works are inferior in quality and number? I don't get it?

I do good works to help build the kingdom of God, and to glorify God. Why do you do good works?
 
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Peter1000

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I probably shouldn't point out the hypocrisy of you accusing others of cherry picking but since works scriptures is all you're relying on, then …
How's your agency score card looking? ...
How's your righteousness ladder climbing effort? ...
How's your forgiveness lately? ...​

View attachment 277173

Mormonism: Strive - "do all you can do" to become perfect.
Mormonism: We are made righteous through our works.
Mormonism: "It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when."

How is your forgiveness lately? Remember God forgives all of your trespasses against him, only if you forgive all who trespass against you. The key word is "only". IOW, don't mock the holy scriptures.
 
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Rescued One

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Why do you always forget Ephesians 2:10? Because it does talk of good works that we are to walk in. Why do you shy away good works?

"Your version doesn't say, "Do the works or you won't be saved."

No, we are first saved and then He Who began a good work in us will perform it.

1 Corinthians 15
10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
 
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Rescued One

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How is your forgiveness lately? Remember God forgives all of your trespasses against him, only if you forgive all who trespass against you. The key word is "only". IOW, don't mock the holy scriptures.

Oh, aren't you misquoting and falsely accusing?
God first forgave us and made us new creatures! New creatures forgive others!

Ephesians 4:32
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
 
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Rescued One

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Why must your good works focus on glorifying God, but ours is to glorify ourselves. Why is that? Are you afraid of us? Do you need to find it necessary to put down our good works because somehow your good works are inferior in quality and number? I don't get it?

I do good works to help build the kingdom of God, and to glorify God. Why do you do good works?

You have to work for all your blessings(including grace) according to Joseph Smith.
 
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twin.spin

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Quikrete 80 lb. Concrete Mix-110180 - The Home Depot

This is Quikrete, a popular name brand of concrete mix.

By some estimates I've seen, the metal plates Joseph Smith worked with would have been about 90 pounds, or about what one of these bags of concrete mix weigh.

Imagine that each morning you have to go out and move a bag of this concrete mix from one spot to another. The first day you might struggle with the load, especially if you're not used to carrying something of that size. But what happens once you hit day seven? Or day one hundred?

After a while your body is going to slowly get stronger from moving that weight around, and past a certain point you might even be able to move two bags just as easily as one.

I've got a bad vertebrae and yet even I can heft one of those for a short distance.

When you look at the metaphor you tried to raise through this light, it rather changes the perspective, no?
No, it doesn't because your suggesting God revealed a progressive plan when none was.
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10
That is what every LDS will be judged as since Mormonism plan of salvation is via keeping the commands \ works and does not do so perfectly as Heavenly Father.
 
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