Who Goes To Hell?

ClementofA

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I hope we can all agree at least that in Ezekiel, the King of Tyre is symbolic of Satan. Well Satan is turned to ashes.

"I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

"COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."

"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. :idea: Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Ashes are what physical things like wood may turn into when burned up. Not spirit beings like Satan & angels.

All knowing thee among the peoples Have been astonished at thee, Wastes thou hast been, and thou art not -- to the age.' "(Ezek.28:19, YLT)
All knowing you among the peoples Have been astonished at you, Wastes you have been, and you are not--to the eon. (CLV)
All that had known thee among the peoples were astounded over thee,— A terror, hast thou become, And art not I Unto times age-abiding. (Ro)

The passage reveals the king is dead...to "the eon", an indefinite time period in the future. This implies his resurrection.

The Hebrew confirms the same, saying AD[5704] OLAM[5769], until eon. Rendering that "until forever" would be rather strange, if not nonsensical.
 
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ClementofA

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And most of you are saying that God will put you into the Lake of Fire until you submit and repent. But there is no logic in that at all. Ashes can't repent, period.

Ashes can't be tormented. But that's what the people - alive - in the lake of fire will be doing. Namely, being tormented. The Bible says so (Rev.14:11; 20:10). So who's being illogical?

Yes, every knee will bow and to the glory of God when Christ returns and that will give God glory because he deserves it after all the wickedness done and done even against him. It doesn't mean they'll repent.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:

(1) The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.

(2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."

Philippians 2:9-11 – ‘should’ vs ‘will’

"“In looking at Phil. 2:10, “That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow,”...“In the Name of Jesus” (Greek and R. V.) means more than simply using the name of Jesus. It signifies, according to the Hebrew idiom, in the very nature of Jesus. This implies not only a change of heart, but that He has bestowed His own nature and spirit. Besides, the confession is that “Jesus Christ is Lord.” No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."

Is Hell Eternal? Or Will God's Plan Fail? Ch. 8 The Neglected Age

IMO Rev.5:13 is a vision of universal worship of the Lamb who was slain for them. There is nothing in the context suggesting coerced or forced or anything less than the
genuine worship of true believers. No mention of a trap door suddenly opening & those not saved being sucked into the lake of fire after they worship the Lamb. So it is
evidently referring to universal salvation & a time when all those who went into the lake of fire having become saved.

I see the reference to the "sea" being included so that no one would get the idea that anyone is excluded, such as, for example, an annihilationist saying it is a reference to only the saved after the unsaved are annihilated in the lake of fire.

The vision John sees is universal worship of the Lamb in a redemptive context. This is what he sees as a - vision - in the present tense. Clearly it is not actually happening then. It is to be fulfilled in the future. That can only happen when everyone is saved, so after the last lost soul in the lake of fire is brought to Christ.

Other similar passages support that conclusion:

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Even Satan and the angels believe in God.

Believing in Love Omnipotent's existence is one thing. Believing "into Him" with saving faith is something entirely different. Many people believe in the existence of God, but that doesn't save them, either.

Christ is savior to the entire world but that simply means he is the "only" way the world can be saved, not that everyone will.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were rejecting Christ & Israelites who will end up in the lake of fire. Mt.1:21 says He "shall" (not will try to) save them.

Nope, non demontial Christian that left the Baptist church when I saw many of the doctrines they taught were not biblical- pretrib rapture, eternal hell, etc

Evidently you & some SDA's here recently presented several of the same misrepresentations about universalism, amongst other similarities in comments.

Again, there is a condition there- those hearing the word and believing. When you are ashes, there is no hearing the word, no believing.

That's unfortunate that Love Omnipotent has an expiry date on His love like a carton of milk & was forced to do the endless Hitler job on them. Oh well. Hope you make it, anyway.

And God doesn't want to have to throw someone into the lake of fire for someone to love him, that's not true love.

Oh? So it wasn't "true love" what Love Omnipotent did to Job's family & body? Or what the Saviour of the world did in giving Paul a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to buffet him? Or giving a stubbornly sinning "brother" in the church over to Satan for destruction of the flesh? Or making women suffer in child birth?

So instead of spanking a child in tough love, you'ld consider true love to be what? Burning the child to death with torments in a lake of fire? And when that child's torments have ceased & he's finally dead & nonexistent, never bring him back again or love him again for all the endless ages of etenity? That's a long time for an all powerful Almighty Omnipotent Omniscient Being Who - IS - Love (the kind that sacrifices itself on a cross) to hate & hold a grudge against someone for the mistakes of a very brief life.

If Love Almighty doesn't save all, is it because He is lacking in power, love or wisdom? He doesn't want to, or is unable to?

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth". -Albert Einstein

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."

"I'm reminded of the movie Ben Hur. When Ben Hur encountered Jesus at the cross, he comes away and says "I felt him take the sword out of my hand." "

Love Omnipotent loves you more than you can imagine!

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism


This has been about God and Satan since the Katabole (overthrow, foundation of the world) And it continues to be about that. Paul says we are to have the full armour in place. And seeing how Satan knows the word better than most Christians, that's a smart decision. Satan has one more chance after the 1000 years because God wants to be very sure who will decide to follow him or Satan. He's very long suffering and even at that point wants to give many a chance to repent and come into the fold. This is his plan and it's biblical. If the lake of fire was his ultimate plan for salvation, it makes all of this, null and void which is simply not the case.

Not at all. Who said the lake of fire is "his ultimate plan for salvation". His plan A is you get saved now. If not then He doesn't throw you away like a piece of garbage forever, but has a plan B. If you're smart you'll choose plan A. Just as if you're smart you'll obey the law. If not it may be the school of hard knocks for you. What you sow you reap. Sow love you'll reap love. Sow fear you'll reap fear.

But I never saw anything that would make me believe will God will rejuvinate someone from ash.

I can't say i've ever read in the Bible of an angelic spirit being becoming ashes. Or anyone becoming ashes forever. Maybe you can find a verse. But your post didn't quote a single Bible verse or give a single reference to a book with chapter & verse supporting anything you said in it. OTOH my post, as usual, was full of Scripture quotes & references supporting my views.
 
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JulieB67

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Had a barbeque today so have been off all day but anyway,

Ashes can't be tormented. But that's what the people - alive - in the lake of fire will be doing. Namely, being tormented. The Bible says so (Rev.14:11; 20:10). So who's being illogical?

Yes, the "smoke" of their torment does rise forever who takes the mark and have no rest. But without Christ you have no rest. But this is still before the great white throne of judgment. And some of these people are ashamed. The great falling away that Paul teaches (2nd Thes) is about apostasy so we see that some of these people might have been Christians. Because unsaved people can't fall away from anything.

And we all know aion can mean age or course.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Yes, John was in the spirit on the Lord's Day and when we are changed in that instant and Christ is back, all will have no choice but to bow down and give glory. But again, some will have immortal souls, some will have mortal souls and still have to wait the 1000 years to be judged. Satan will be loosed one more time to deceive those. The ones that went through the first ressurection will not have to worry during the thousand years, but others will. Then after that those not written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire.
If God is just going to save everyone in the end, why the two tesing periods with Satan? No one has answered that. There is too much in the bible that is going down but none of you seem to care really which is mind boggling. It's like no worries even though Christ and Paul give out strict warning. And there's nothing to fear but the unknown. They just want us to be prepared and with the Bible, we are able to know how it will go down.

"COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."

There's a condition there, it's through him. Not all will come to repentance, since not all are written in the book of life.

"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons.

This is why I have doubts that some here might not have read all of their bibles, not sure. But anyway we all know Christ likens heaven to a gulf. Here are the verses that shows who he was reconciling in Heaven. (There's no lake of fire at this point) So we know from Christ, there are two sides.

I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"
I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

So you see these were people that had passed on in that time that were sometimes disobedient. No demons. And I hope we can all safely assume that there might be others that Christ has taught to.

As for Satan,

If you've read Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, than you would know they completely mirror one another in their discussion of Satan/Lucifer. And it also what lines up with what Paul teaches in 2nd Thes and Revelation 20. Isaiah 14 is the first witness, As I've posted before, this is why the Bible has to be taken as a whole.

Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Satan and his as I posted earlier will be here during the tribulation and the whole world will wonder after him.

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.
Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the MOST
HIGH."

Isaiah 14:15 "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit (Rev 20:3)

And proving that angels are called men in the bible, because we are made in God's image,

Isaiah 14:16 "They that see thee shall shall narrowly look upon the, and consider thee, saying. "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"


Revelation 20:3 "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."


We all know Satan has always wanted to be like God, the most high. But also notice the words, "I will also sit on the mount of congregation, in the sides of the north".

This is in Jerusalem when he as antichrist (instead of) will proclaim to be God, that's where the mount of congregation in the sides of the north is. This has not happened yet. This also tells you who will be sitting on that throne, proclaiming to be God. Christ and Paul say beware.

Paul,

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (Isaiah 14:13)



Ezekiel 28:6 "Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;


Ezekiel 28:7 "Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness."

God's elect will publish the word of God during the tribulation (Christ taught that the word will be published during that time)Tthe full amour will be what you can stand against Satan with. The sword is the word of God, as Paul teaches in Ephesians.


Ezekiel 28:8 "They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas." We know the seas are the people, as taught in Revelation. And again, we see that he will be put into the pit.

These go back to when Satan was in the garden. Which identifies who the King of Tyre is, he was made in the full pattern,

Ezekiel 28:13 "Thou hast been in Eden the Garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the Sardis, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."

Again, "created", not born of woman here-a chereub.

Ezekiel 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

Ezekiel 28:16 "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

This is where we get the back history of Satan before this world age.

Ezekiel 28:17 "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of the brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."

This will happen when Satan and his are cast back down to earth (Rev 12)

Ezekiel 28:18
"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Ezekiel 28:18
"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Ezekiel 28:19
"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."


Again, this mirrors Isaiah 14:16

Isaiah 14:16
"They that see thee shall shall narrowly look upon the, and consider thee, saying. "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

They are astonished at what Satan has been brought to and can't believe at that point they he deceived the world and nations like that. And he has 2 opportunities to do so.


"There, you wanted scriptures, you wanted one with an angelic spirit being turned to ash. Although I'm sure it's not going to matter but there it is.

But for the record, when angels are here on earth, they have form, they have substance. We can even survive on their food. Not too hard to believe they can be turned to ash, especially with God's consuming fire.

His plan A is you get saved now. If not then He doesn't throw you away like a piece of garbage forever, but has a plan B. If you're smart you'll choose plan A. Just as if you're smart you'll obey the law. If not it may be the school of hard knocks for you. What you sow you reap. Sow love you'll reap love. Sow fear you'll reap fear.

Yeah, we've all heard you reap what you sow. But it just has me shaking my head at times with some of these repeated posts, quotes, etc. I mean even Albert Eienstien lol

. But your post didn't quote a single Bible verse or give a single reference to a book with chapter & verse supporting anything you said in it. OTOH my post, as usual, was full of Scripture quotes & references supporting my views.

To be honest, I don't post scriptures sometimes because I generally believe people here have read their bibles and have some sort of inlking to what I'm talking about in general. We might believe differently but at least know the scriptures I'm talking about.



I'm not trying to offend anyone here on this thread but the bible is so much more than what you're all constantly posting. You are reading people's books and anyone can pull out a verse here or there to prove anything Any of us can do that. That's why it's important to take the Bible as a whole and see if your beliefs line up with God's plan and most importantly how it lines up with future prophecy. There will be quite the battle with Satan coming up. Christ and Paul say beware and we have the letter to study and prepare with.

One of Christ's favorite sayings was, "haven't you read?"



 
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FineLinen

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One of Christ's favorite sayings was, "haven't you read?"

Yup.

Another favorite word of the Christ =

"This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."

Your word for today =

Suniemi
 
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ClementofA

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Yes, the "smoke" of their torment does rise forever who takes the mark and have no rest. But without Christ you have no rest. But this is still before the great white throne of judgment. And some of these people are ashamed. The great falling away that Paul teaches (2nd Thes) is about apostasy so we see that some of these people might have been Christians. Because unsaved people can't fall away from anything.

Again they are revealed by Love Omnipotent to be being "tormented" (not ashes) in the lake of fire (Rev.20:10). And this torment will continue "into the ages of the ages" {"forever and ever" in non literal deceptive Bible translations, probably like the one you read}.

What would be the point of these torments if the Saviour of all is not still loving & seeking to save? It must be sadism. That's what the endless annihilation view leads to.

Not all will come to repentance, since not all are written in the book of life.

There's no Bible verse that says "Not all will come to repentance, since not all are written in the book of life."

To the contrary:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

But anyway we all know Christ likens heaven to a gulf.

Where is this Scripture where "Christ likens heaven to a gulf"? The rich man in "hell" (Hades) is told there is a chasm between him & Lazarus, but we are not told that the chasm is heaven. Apparently Lazarus also is in Hades, on the other side of the gulf from the rich man in Hades.


Here are the verses that shows who he was reconciling in Heaven. (There's no lake of fire at this point) So we know from Christ, there are two sides.

I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"
I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

There's no reference to "heaven" there. Do you think there were human spirits in a "prison" in heaven? If so, why were they "in prison" in heaven? Were they the "disobedient" who needed to be reconciled to God? And Jesus went there to the "prison" in heaven and preached to them? I don't see any Biblical evidence for any of these fanciful notions of heaven in the Scriptures you've posted. Quite the contrary, in fact.

So you see these were people that had passed on in that time that were sometimes disobedient. No demons.

There are wicked spirits in heavenly places, but they are not humans:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":

Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:

Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. :idea: Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

If you've read Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, than you would know they completely mirror one another in their discussion of Satan/Lucifer. And it also what lines up with what Paul teaches in 2nd Thes and Revelation 20. Isaiah 14 is the first witness, As I've posted before, this is why the Bible has to be taken as a whole.

Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Satan and his as I posted earlier will be here during the tribulation and the whole world will wonder after him.

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.
Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the MOST
HIGH."

Isaiah 14:15 "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit (Rev 20:3)

And proving that angels are called men in the bible, because we are made in God's image,

Isaiah 14:16 "They that see thee shall shall narrowly look upon the, and consider thee, saying. "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"


Revelation 20:3 "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."


We all know Satan has always wanted to be like God, the most high. But also notice the words, "I will also sit on the mount of congregation, in the sides of the north".

This is in Jerusalem when he as antichrist (instead of) will proclaim to be God, that's where the mount of congregation in the sides of the north is. This has not happened yet. This also tells you who will be sitting on that throne, proclaiming to be God. Christ and Paul say beware.

Paul,

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (Isaiah 14:13)



Ezekiel 28:6 "Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;


Ezekiel 28:7 "Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness."

God's elect will publish the word of God during the tribulation and it and the full amour will be what you can stand against Satan with. The sword is the word of God, as Paul teaches in Ephesians.


Ezekiel 28:8 "They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas." We know the seas are the people, as taught in Revelation. And again, we see that he will be put into the pit.

These go back to when Satan was in the garden. Which identifies who the King of Tyre is, he was made in the full pattern,

Ezekiel 28:13 "Thou hast been in Eden the Garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the Sardis, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."

Again, "created", not born of woman here-a chereub.

Ezekiel 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

Ezekiel 28:16 "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

This is where we get the back history of Satan before this world age.

Ezekiel 28:17 "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of the brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."

This will happen when Satan and his are cast back down to earth (Rev 12)

Ezekiel 28:18
"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Ezekiel 28:18
"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Ezekiel 28:19
"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."


Again, this mirrors Isaiah 14:16

Isaiah 14:16
"They that see thee shall shall narrowly look upon the, and consider thee, saying. "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

They are astonished at what Satan has been brought to and can't believe at that point they he deceived the world and nations like that. And he has 2 opportunities to do so.


Satan is a spirit being. He can't be burned to "ashes":

Ezek.28:18b So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.

Notice that verse 28 also says it already happened, so it couldn't be referring to a future event or Satan. And the ashes were on the "ground" not in the lake of fire.

Furthermore, the subject of Ezek 28:1-19 is the king of Tyre whom God clearly says is a "man" (v.2). This "man" thinks of himself as a "god" or "God", hence all the fanciful references to him being perfect, in Eden, etc.

Then in the next verse, in v.19, we see again that his destruction is in the past, not the future, which rules out it being a reference to Satan:

"though thou hast been a terror, so the Hebrew,"

Ezekiel 28:19 Commentaries: "All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever."'"

Young's Literal Translation
All knowing thee among the peoples Have been astonished at thee, Wastes thou hast been, and thou art not -- to the age.' (Ezek.28:19).


There, you wanted scriptures, you wanted one with an angelic spirit being turned to ash.

Evidently, as i've shown, it's quite a fanciful, and unscriptural, notion.


But for the record, when angels are here on earth, they have form, they have substance. We can even survive on their food. Not too hard to believe they can be turned to ash, especially with God's consuming fire.

Ash is physical. Angels are spirit beings (Heb.1:7, 14) and do not have physical bodies, so they can't be turned into ash.


Yeah, we've all heard you reap what you sow. But it just has me shaking my head at times with some of these repeated posts, quotes, etc. I mean even Albert Eienstien lol

Paul quoted secular poets:

Does the New Testament quote extrabiblical writers?

I'm not trying to offend anyone here on this thread but the bible is so much more than what you're all constantly posting.

I'm quite sure it's more than what you've been constantly posting as well.

You are reading people's books

You are never listening to what other Christians (the body of Christ) have to say?

anyone can pull out a verse here or there to prove anything Any of us can do that.

Of course. But can it be done accurately and without adding one's fanciful notions?

Here is your choice to come into the light & put your biblical views to the test among members of His church:

"but test all things. Hold fast to what is good." (1 Thess.5:23).

Acts 17:2 "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures"
 
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Shrewd Manager

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As the years roll along, the grasp by many in the fundy thinking world, causes me to question why there are not more who refuse to acknowledge such a hopeless being.

For me, anything that yields less than a premium rate of return by the Glorious One is totally unacceptable.

3654414-Brennan-Manning-Quote-Ruthless-trust-ultimately-comes-down-to-this.jpg

Does the exchange rate God offers for Adam in the form of Jesus discounted? Is it a case of 1 Jesus only buys 0.001 of an Adam? Perish the thought! We cast the money-changers from the temple, for the blood of Jesus buys back all base coinage in circulation, and in the furnace refines out the dross.
 
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Saint Steven

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Does the exchange rate God offers for Adam in the form of Jesus discounted? Is it a case of 1 Jesus only buys 0.001 of an Adam? Perish the thought! We cast the money-changers from the temple, for the blood of Jesus buys back all base coinage in circulation, and in the furnace refines out the dross.
------------------------
--- PAID IN FULL ---
------------------------
 
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Der Alte

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Clement said:
...All knowing thee among the peoples Have been astonished at thee, Wastes thou hast been, and thou art not -- to the age.' "(Ezek.28:19, YLT)
All knowing you among the peoples Have been astonished at you, Wastes you have been, and you are not--to the eon. (CLV)
All that had known thee among the peoples were astounded over thee,— A terror, hast thou become, And art not I Unto times age-abiding. (Ro)
The passage reveals the king is dead...to "the eon", an indefinite time period in the future. This implies his resurrection.
The Hebrew confirms the same, saying AD[5704] OLAM[5769], until eon. Rendering that "until forever" would be rather strange, if not nonsensical.
UR-ites claim to quote from "literal" translations but thus far have been unable to tell me what makes a version "literal."
I have observed that the so-called "literal" versions UR-ites quote just happen to support UR doctrine. Hmmm strange coincidence.
I have suggest that for a literal version of the OT which is free from any Christian bias is the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation. And for the NT the Eastern Greek Orthodox NT. Both are available free online.
What better translators f the OT than native Hebrew speaking Hebrew scholars. What better translators of the NT can there be than native Greek speaking scholars.

JPS Ezekiel 28:19 All they that know thee among the peoples shall be appalled at thee; thou art become a terror, and thou shalt never be any more.'
None of that "to the age,""to the eon,""age abiding" nonsense. Real Hebrew scholars understood that the combination עד־עולם/ad olam means never/forever. See e.g. Ecc 3:14
JPS Ecclesiastes 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever; [עולם/olam] nothing can be added to it, nor any thing taken from it; and God hath so made it, that men should fear before Him.
 
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FineLinen

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The Master of Reconciliation is destined to deliver the broken wretches of sin & despair. It is a long, long line of those whose chains now rattle with worship In His lovely Name.

Every knee, every tongue, every dimension of heaven, earth & underworld in antiphonal worship.
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
The Master of Reconciliation is destined to deliver the broken wretches of sin & despair. It is a long, long line of those whose chains now rattle with worship In His lovely Name.
Every knee, every tongue, every dimension of heaven, earth & underworld in antiphonal worship.
Scripture does NOT say that all will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
Exomolgeo occurs eleven times in the NT, in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “
whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back).”

Matthew 3:6 “confessing their sins,” Matthew 11:25 “thank,” Mark 1:5 “confessing their sins,” Luke 10:21 “thank,” Luke 22:6 “promised,” Acts of the apostles 19:18 “confessed their deeds,” Romans 14:11 “confess,” Romans 15:9 “confess Christ,” James 5:16 “confess your faults,” Revelation 3:5 “confess his name”
It never means whole-heartedly etc.
…..Scripture says that every knee will bow but only believers will do so willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies.
How will the enemies of Jesus feel?

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, * Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
* "That day" -the day of judgement.
The word of God says every knee will bow. It must be important because it is repeated 3 times.
1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
But the "fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, liars" etc. who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord. This is another important point it is recorded 9 times in scripture.
1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
5. Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
6. Acts of the apostles 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
7. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
8. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
9. Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua shows us in Josh. 10.
Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah.
Joshua 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Joshua 10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
Joshua 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.

Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.
The enemies of Joshua, who had been his footstool, do not become faithful members of his army.

 
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JulieB67

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Where is this Scripture where "Christ likens heaven to a gulf"? The rich man in "hell" (Hades) is told there is a chasm between him & Lazarus, but we are not told that the chasm is heaven. Apparently Lazarus also is in Hades, on the other side of the gulf from the rich man in Hades.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Just so we know where the spirit goes. But since I confused you using the word Heaven (although we know Lazarus is there) Let's just say to make things easier, when the spirit passes, there are are two sides which one can go and there's a gulf between them.

I assumed once again that you were familiar with the Luke passages, obviously not according to these words - "apparently Lazarus also is in Hades"

Luke 16:22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom the rich man also died, and was buried;" (no, not in Hades)

The rich man wants Abraham to send Lazarus over to help him in his torment.

Luke 16:25 "But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivest thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

According to you Lazarus is being comforted in Hades and since he is with Abraham, that puts him there as well---and I'm the fanciful one???

Abraham goes on to tell him,

Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence

The entire point of this teaching is that the rich man can see to the other side but can not pass. As for Lazarus being in hell?? He's in Abraham's bosom. You're not even making sense. How can he help the rich man if he is in hell? He can't help but that's not the point.


Since you want to use the Greek, that's fine -5490 chasma, the form is even from chao, to gape or yawn. When you do both those things you are separating your lips. But chasm, or vacancy (impassable interval) -gulf. Think of a vacant (empty) interval between the sides.

The point is one can't pass to the other side and vice versa. Are you missing that from this this teaching from Christ? And since we know that Abraham is not in hades (lets be real here) We see that there is a gulf there. Abraham and Lazarus are on the other side. But the rich man can see over to the other side. Christ is making it easy for us to understand. So the rich man is indeed a spirit on the other side.

The other side of the gulf is hell right now for those. (not a lake of fire) and they are in torment, especially because they can see to the other side. Christ is the living water and he's on the right side of the throne. Some can probably see their loved ones as well that made it. If you can't understand this teaching then the scriptures from 1st Peter that I posted will not make sense to you.

I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"
I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"


I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

They are spirits, meaning they have passed on. The spirit goes back to God. As Christ teaches, there are two sides with a huge vacant interval that can't be passed.

Again, easy verses to understand. Once Christ was quickened by the spirit, (something he made possible for us as well) and by that spirit preached unto the spirits in prison. Not sure what is hard to understand about that. The other side is prison at this point. We still have the 1000 year reign and great throne of judgement and even Christ went to them to preach.

There's nothing fanciful about that, just scripture. These aren't the fallen angels whose sin was much greater. These are people that were "sometimes" disobedient.

You are never listening to what other Christians (the body of Christ) have to say?

Yes, when what they teach lines up with God's word. As I've said before I've gave up false doctrines when I found out they weren't biblical.

But when one is discussing the Bible, it's best to leave man out of it and let the scriptures speak for themselves.

I'm quite sure it's more than what you've been constantly posting as well.

I've tried sound the alarm as watchman are supposed to do. Many of you aren't watchman it appears because as I've said, none of you seem to care about what's going to happen as Christ teaches in the Gospels with Paul a second witness in both books of Thessalonians. They don't want us to fall away and many are in danger of doing so because they would rather believe the lie than accept the love of the truth that they "might" be saved. (2nd Thessalonians) And it will be God that sends the delusion.
By that time, if you don't have the knowledge in your mind of what will go down, it will be too late. There's nothing to fear about that if we have the knowledge. But we can't be like the 10 virgins.

Satan is a spirit being. He can't be burned to "ashes":

If you can't see that the King of Tyre is Satan, I can't help you. He was created a cherub and in the garden of Eden.

"Thou hast been in Eden the Garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the Sardis, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."

Again, "created", not born of woman here-a chereub.

Ezekiel 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

There's no Bible verse that says "Not all will come to repentance, since not all are written in the book of life."

If you are not in the book of life, you have not come to repentance. I guess we're not even allowed common sense on this thread but ok.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

He is the savior for all mankind. There is no other way for salvation, that's what that means. Meaning he is the savior for all and by him through repentance and belief we might have eternal life and not perish.

"through the obedience of the One" again there's the conditon.

And all are alive at this point. The second death has not happened yet. Not one person at this point in time has perished.

Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Yes, this is why we will need the full armour in place as Paul teaches in this chapter for when Satan and his are kicked out of heaven. That's what that means as posted in Revelation 12. It all fits into what I've been posting about what is going to happen in the future.

Nothing about that verse contradicts Christ's teaching.





But can it be done accurately and without adding one's fanciful notions?

I've posted nothing but scripture that lines up with my posts, nothing fanciful about that, just context and reading comprehension and sometimes just good old common sense. What's fanciful is claiming Abraham and Lazarus are in hades/hell. How is that even close to being accurate??? And I can't say I ever heard that before.

"but test all things. Hold fast to what is good." (1 Thess.5:23).

Just going by what you believe about the beggar Lazarus, maybe you should apply this to yourself?



My husband says I must pull myself from this thread lol. And he's probably right.




 
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Der Alte

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Clementof A said:
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."...
Paul used the word "pollus"/"many" 71 times. He used the word "pas"/"all" 375 times When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas" not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used oi polloi/the many ten times where it clearly does not mean "all."
In one verse Rom 12:4 Paul used “the many” and “all” in the same verse.
Romans 12:4, Romans 15:22, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive....
All mankind is "in Adam" because all mankind is physically descended from Adam. All mankind is not by nature "in Christ."
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Galatians 3:27-28
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:13
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Colossians 1:2
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 
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ClementofA

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UR-ites claim to quote from "literal" translations but thus far have been unable to tell me what makes a version "literal."

It might help if you actually read the posts in reply to you on the forum. Rather than posting the same erroneous comments over and over again. This is the 5th time you've been answered recently:

I always ask UR-ites what makes a version "literal?" I never get an answer.

You've been repeatedly answered & this is at least the 4th time recently.

The problem is you don't read posts in reply to you. Then repeat the same erroneous info over & over again. Like you've done here.

The following was addressed to you a number of days ago:

I have asked many times but UR-ites cannot tell me what makes a "literal" version.

Actually you were told at least two times. Both of them this week:

Who Goes To Hell?

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

And other points in your post have been addressed & refuted (shown to be in error) repeatedly, as a search of the forums will reveal.


I have observed that the so-called "literal" versions UR-ites quote just happen to support UR doctrine.
Hmmm strange coincidence.

Actually all Bible versions i've seen support universalism, even the KJV & your beloved NET, NIV, EGO & JPS English translations. But, then, they also support eternal punishment, contradicting themselves. So is it any wonder if many people prefer translations that aren't self refuting?

Could most modern translations be in error?

I have suggest that for a literal version of the OT which is free from any Christian bias is the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation. And for the NT the Eastern Greek Orthodox NT. Both are available free online.
What better translators f the OT than native Hebrew speaking Hebrew scholars. What better translators of the NT can there be than native Greek speaking scholars.

What makes you think native Greek speaking scholars know any more than any other Greek scholars? Are they your Pope of scholars? ECF universalists were also native Greek speaking scholars & not 2000 years removed from Christ.

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley


JPS Ezekiel 28:19 All they that know thee among the peoples shall be appalled at thee; thou art become a terror, and thou shalt never be any more.'
None of that "to the age,""to the eon,""age abiding" nonsense. Real Hebrew scholars understood that the combination עד־עולם/ad olam means never/forever. See e.g. Ecc 3:14

Is it your view the King of Tyre will be (or has been) annihilated? Have you changed from the endless tortures view to endless annihilation?

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
 
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ClementofA

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Scripture

The word of God says every knee will bow. It must be important because it is repeated four times.
1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
4. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Then why do i only see 3 there, not 4.

But the "fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, liars" etc. who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord. This is another important point it is recorded seven times in scripture.
1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts of the apostles 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
6. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;. Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Here's another you omitted for some reason:

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.


What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua shows us in Josh. 10.
Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah.
Joshua 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Joshua 10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
Joshua 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.…
Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.

No "footstool" mentioned there or even described.

And no slaying in any verses above that speak of "footstool".

As for Matthew 7:

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
 
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Der Alte

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Clementof A said:
It might help if you actually read the posts in reply to you on the forum. Rather than posting the same erroneous comments over and over again. This is the 5th time you've been answered recently:
You've been repeatedly answered & this is at least the 4th time recently.
The problem is you don't read posts in reply to you. Then repeat the same erroneous info over & over again. Like you've done here.
The following was addressed to you a number of days ago:
Actually you were told at least two times. Both of them this week
Checked one of your posts. There were some moderately interesting quotes from "scholars" explaining their views on what they think is the difference between literal and idiomatic but none of the quotes identified any Bibles they considered "literal." Even if they did how would you know that what they were saying was correct?
Actually all Bible versions i've seen support universalism, even the KJV & your beloved NET, NIV, EGO & JPS English translations. But, then, they also support eternal punishment, contradicting themselves. So is it any wonder if many people prefer translations that aren't self refuting?
None of the non-UR Bibles are self contradicting if one recognizes that there are more than 200 figures of speech in the Bible one of those is Epezeuxis. Look it up. Try E.W. Bullinger's "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible."
hat makes you think native Greek speaking scholars know any more than any other Greek scholars? Are they your Pope of scholars? ECF universalists were also native Greek speaking scholars & not 2000 years removed from Christ.
You have got to be kidding? If you think the translators of the JPS and EOB are in error it will take more than a few links to anonymous "experts" and/or quoting from a different version.
The only argument I have ever seen for "olam" and "aionios" is some version of ""'Olam/aionios' cannot mean eternal because they sometimes refer to things that are not eternal." Which I have refuted many times.

Is it your view the King of Tyre will be (or has been) annihilated? Have you changed from the endless tortures view to endless annihilation?
I believe what the Bible says, all the Bible not just a handful of proof texts. God can do what He wants to, when He wants to do it. One verse does not an absolute rule make.
 
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ClementofA

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Paul used the word "pollus"/"many" 71 times. He used the word "pas"/"all" 375 times When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas" not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used oi polloi/the many ten times where it clearly does not mean "all."
In one verse Rom 12:4 Paul used “the many” and “all” in the same verse.
Romans 12:4, Romans 15:22, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13

Here's what you've never answered:

Lest the unwary be misled by heterodox doctrine.
Here it is being presented that "the many" in Rom 5:19 really means "all."
Paul used the word "pollus"/"many" 71 times. He used the word "pas"/"all" 375 times When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas" not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used "oi polloi"/"the many" ten times where it clearly does not mean "all."
In one verse Paul used both "all" and "pollus" in the same verse, Rom 12:4.
Romans 12:4, Romans 15:22, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13

XYZ said:
Yep did you notice the "MANY" does not mean the "ALL"? Again did you know that the "MANY" are the "JUST"?

The "many" (v.19a) are not the "just". They are those who "were constituted sinners" (v.19a) "through one offense" (v.19a), i.e. Adam's sin. That "many" is, therefore, all mankind with the exception of Christ. Hence "many", not "all" mankind.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Verse 19 uses the word "many" instead of "all" as in verse 18. Not all men have been "constituted sinners" (v.19), Christ being an obvious exception. Some would also include as exceptions those humans who have been this moment conceived, preborn babies, infants, etc. So, therefore, Paul says "many" in verse 19 rather than "all".

Rom.5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL MEN, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL MEN.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man THE MANY were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man THE MANY will be made righteous.

If Paul didn't wish to parallel both occurrences of "THE MANY" in verse 19, then he would have said "some" or "few" instead of "THE MANY" in the second occurrence. Clearly he was teaching by the parallel of two occurrences of "THE MANY" (v.19) that all those who "were made sinners" will "be made righteous".

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever [or annihilated for eternity].

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11). For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108...

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it." (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)



All mankind is "in Adam" because all mankind is physically descended from Adam. All mankind is not by nature "in Christ."
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Galatians 3:27-28
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:13
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Colossians 1:2
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


All men are not - yet - in Christ. But 1 Cor.15 says:

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

What about God’s enemies who are made a footstool for Jesus?

Isa 110:1
Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."Mat 22:44, Mar 12:36, Luk 20:43, Act 2:35

Jos 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.

When enemy kings were captured they were forced to their knees and the conquerors would place their feet on the back of their necks.

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.
 
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ClementofA

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I believe what the Bible says, all the Bible not just a handful of proof texts. God can do what He wants to, when He wants to do it. One verse does not an absolute rule make.

If you are not trying to give the impression to readers here that you believe in annihilation, you might want to avoid any confusion they have regarding your remarks. Namely by answering the question you evaded:

JPS Ezekiel 28:19 All they that know thee among the peoples shall be appalled at thee; thou art become a terror, and thou shalt never be any more.'

None of that "to the age,""to the eon,""age abiding" nonsense. Real Hebrew scholars understood that the combination עד־עולם/ad olam means never/forever.

Is it then your view the King of Tyre will be (or has been) annihilated?

Have you changed from the endless tortures view to endless annihilation?

How can a being "never be any more" (Ezek.28:19 mistranslation above) and at the same time be tortured eternally?

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
 
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