If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

setst777

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 25, 2018
2,204
599
66
Greenfield
Visit site
✟353,327.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single

You are confusing the drawing of the Spirit with the regeneration by the indwelling Spirit through faith.

In John 6:44. Truly no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him by the Gospel and the Spirit. However, not everyone the Father draws will come to the Son because they will resist the Spirit and the Word of God (Acts 7:51; Isaiah 63:10 ; Psalms 106:32-33).

Acts 7:51 (WEB)
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do.

Isaiah 63:10 (WEB)
10 But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. Therefore he turned and became their enemy, and he himself fought against them.

Psalms 106:32-33 (WEB)
32 They angered him also at the waters of Meribah, so that Moses was troubled for their sakes; 33 because they were rebellious against his spirit, he spoke rashly with his lips.

That is why God resists the proud but give grace to the humble:

1 Peter 5:5 (WEB) 5 Yes, all of you clothe yourselves with humility, to subject yourselves to one another; for “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” [Proverbs 3:34]

But for those who do not resist God’s drawing, those (the humble) are the ones who will be taught by God (John 6:45) through the Gospel, and will come to the Son.

Psalms 25:9 (WEB)
9 He will guide the humble in justice. He will teach the humble his way.

Faith only comes by learning the Gospel Message about Christ.

Romans 10:17 (WEB)
17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Blessings,
Steven

When you don’t resist, is that in the flesh or in the Spirit. It’s one or the other.

setst RE: When you don't resist, you are making a humble choice to put your faith in Jesus at the hearing of the Gospel along with the drawing of the Spirit. Therefore, God draws all people to Christ, but only those who respond in faith will be saved. The drawing is of God, and the faith is our response.

This is the case, because many will resist the drawing of the Spirit and the Word. So those who actually come to Christ, were willing to listen to the Spirit and Word of God, and not resist.

Therefore, salvation is God's work to all those who believe.

Romans 1:16-17 (WEB)
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

1 Peter 1:4-5 (KJV)
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

By faith I am justified: Romans 5:1

By faith God credits righteousness to me: Romans 4:3-11; Romans 4:2-24

By faith, not works, do I receive the free gift of salvation Rm 9:30-33

By faith I access God's saving grace: Romans 5:1-2

By faith I receive the power of God onto salvation: Romans 1:16-17

By faith I receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23

By faith I am regenerated by the Holy Spirit: John 7:37-39

By faith I am born of God - a child of God: John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26

By faith to the end I receive the Crown of Life: Revelation 2:10

By Faith in Jesus I am sanctified: Acts 26:16-18

By faith I am kept by God's Power until the end 1 Peter 1:4-5

The end result of my faith is my salvation 1 Peter 1:9

"From faith to faith, the righteous will live by faith." Rm 1:16-17

By faith I am victorious: 1 John 5:4

By faith I am counted worthy of Salvation by God:

Matthew 10:38
(WEB)
38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me isn’t worthy of me.

Revelation 3:3-5 (WEB)
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB)
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

2 Thessalonians 1:4-11 (WEB) 4 So that we ourselves boast about you in the assemblies of God for your perseverance and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which you endure. 5 This is an obvious sign of the righteous judgment of God, to the end that you may be counted worthy of God’s Kingdom, for which you also suffer.

Therefore, faith is your responsibility before a holy and righteous God to receive the free gift of eternal life.

Romans 6:19-23 (WEB) 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh, for as you presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification. 20 For when you were servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification and the result of eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessings,
Steven
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,340.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
setst RE: When you don't resist, you are making a humble choice to put your faith in Jesus at the hearing of the Gospel along with the drawing of the Spirit.

This is the case, because many will resist the drawing of the Spirit and the Word. So those who actually come to Christ, were willing to listen to the Spirit and Word of God, and not resist.

Therefore, salvation is God's work to all those who believe.

Romans 1:16-17 (WEB)
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

1 Peter 1:4-5 (KJV)
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

By faith I am justified: Romans 5:1

By faith God credits righteousness to me: Romans 4:3-11; Romans 4:2-24

By faith, not works, do I receive the free gift of salvation Rm 9:30-33

By faith I access God's saving grace: Romans 5:1-2

By faith I receive the power of God onto salvation: Romans 1:16-17

By faith I receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23

By faith I am regenerated by the Holy Spirit: John 7:37-39

By faith I am born of God - a child of God: John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26

By faith to the end I receive the Crown of Life: Revelation 2:10

By Faith in Jesus I am sanctified: Acts 26:16-18

By faith I am kept by God's Power until the end 1 Peter 1:4-5

The end result of my faith is my salvation 1 Peter 1:9

"From faith to faith, the righteous will live by faith." Rm 1:16-17

By faith I am victorious: 1 John 5:4

By faith I am counted worthy of Salvation by God:

Matthew 10:38
(WEB)
38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me isn’t worthy of me.

Revelation 3:3-5 (WEB)
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB)
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

2 Thessalonians 1:4-11 (WEB) 4 So that we ourselves boast about you in the assemblies of God for your perseverance and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which you endure. 5 This is an obvious sign of the righteous judgment of God, to the end that you may be counted worthy of God’s Kingdom, for which you also suffer.

Therefore, faith is your responsibility before a holy and righteous God to receive the free gift of eternal life.

Romans 6:19-23 (WEB) 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh, for as you presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification. 20 For when you were servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification and the result of eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessings,
Steven
You don’t seem to grasp context. So I think we should end this at this point.
 
Upvote 0

setst777

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 25, 2018
2,204
599
66
Greenfield
Visit site
✟353,327.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You don’t seem to grasp context. So I think we should end this at this point.

You made a wise choice. However, to end a discussion by making accusations without any evidence shows a lack of respect for others and yourself.

Blessings.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bling
Upvote 0

Ilikecats

Active Member
Dec 27, 2019
185
70
28
Alberta
✟57,244.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
setst RE: When you don't resist, you are making a humble choice to put your faith in Jesus at the hearing of the Gospel along with the drawing of the Spirit. Therefore, God draws all people to Christ, but only those who respond in faith will be saved. The drawing is of God, and the faith is our response.

This is the case, because many will resist the drawing of the Spirit and the Word. So those who actually come to Christ, were willing to listen to the Spirit and Word of God, and not resist.

Therefore, salvation is God's work to all those who believe.

Romans 1:16-17 (WEB)
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

1 Peter 1:4-5 (KJV)
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

By faith I am justified: Romans 5:1

By faith God credits righteousness to me: Romans 4:3-11; Romans 4:2-24

By faith, not works, do I receive the free gift of salvation Rm 9:30-33

By faith I access God's saving grace: Romans 5:1-2

By faith I receive the power of God onto salvation: Romans 1:16-17

By faith I receive His Spirit: Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13-14; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23

By faith I am regenerated by the Holy Spirit: John 7:37-39

By faith I am born of God - a child of God: John 1:12-13; Galatians 3:26

By faith to the end I receive the Crown of Life: Revelation 2:10

By Faith in Jesus I am sanctified: Acts 26:16-18

By faith I am kept by God's Power until the end 1 Peter 1:4-5

The end result of my faith is my salvation 1 Peter 1:9

"From faith to faith, the righteous will live by faith." Rm 1:16-17

By faith I am victorious: 1 John 5:4

By faith I am counted worthy of Salvation by God:

Matthew 10:38
(WEB)
38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me isn’t worthy of me.

Revelation 3:3-5 (WEB)
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB)
34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

2 Thessalonians 1:4-11 (WEB) 4 So that we ourselves boast about you in the assemblies of God for your perseverance and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which you endure. 5 This is an obvious sign of the righteous judgment of God, to the end that you may be counted worthy of God’s Kingdom, for which you also suffer.

Therefore, faith is your responsibility before a holy and righteous God to receive the free gift of eternal life.

Romans 6:19-23 (WEB) 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh, for as you presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification. 20 For when you were servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification and the result of eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessings,
Steven
Regarding the drawing of men. This is a reference towards the parable of the nets in Matthew 13:47-50. It doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of all men to lead them to Christ or create a choice for the unbeliever to believe. If salvation is what the believer has to do then you are saving yourself. Jesus isn’t your saviour at all. Faith isn’t from yourself. It’s from God.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,209
2,615
✟884,443.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Can a bad tree produce good fruit?

Is receiving the Spirit by faith good fruit? Is it pleasing to God?

I think you have misunderstood this with bad and good trees. The good tree (the born again Christian) produces deeds pleasing to God and the bad tree (those not saved) does not. Receiving the Spirit is for the bad tree, not the good tree. The good tree already has the Holy Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

setst777

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 25, 2018
2,204
599
66
Greenfield
Visit site
✟353,327.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Regarding the drawing of men. This is a reference towards the parable of the nets in Matthew 13:47-50. It doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of all men to lead them to Christ or create a choice for the unbeliever to believe. If salvation is what the believer has to do then you are saving yourself. Jesus isn’t your saviour at all. Faith isn’t from yourself. It’s from God.

Greetings.

The New Testament Gospel makes no comparison between Matthew 13:47-50 and the drawing of God by the Spirit and the Gospel message.

Salvation is always by the grace of God extended to us by the Gospel through faith in Jesus Christ. That is the Gospel throughout the NT. We access the grace of Salvation by faith in Christ Jesus. That is the way the Scriptures clearly teach the Gospel.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB)
5 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

John 3:14-18 (WEB)
14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

The Gospel is so simple, yet so many people are determined to pervert the Gospel to the destruction of many. We are not saved so we can believe; rather, we believe so we can be saved. Putting our faith in Jesus does not earn our salvation; rather, by faith in Jesus, God graciously grants us the free gift of salvation that we do not deserve.

Blessings,
Steven
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

setst777

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 25, 2018
2,204
599
66
Greenfield
Visit site
✟353,327.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I think you have misunderstood this with bad and good trees. The good tree (the born again Christian) produces deeds pleasing to God and the bad tree (those not saved) does not. Receiving the Spirit is for the bad tree, not the good tree. The good tree already has the Holy Spirit.

Greetings Zoidar,

You have a Spiritual wisdom which is refreshing. Continue the good work Brother.

Blessings and Love,
Steven
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: zoidar
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,870
7,979
NW England
✟1,050,874.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It says He died for us.


“But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:8‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:8‬ ‭ESV‬‬


Etc.


So again, what is it in the context that leads you to believe that “us” refers to all humanity?

Or are you just assuming that meaning?

Ok, sorry; verse 8 does indeed say that he died for us.
Verse 6 says that he died for the ungodly. Other verses of Scripture say that he died for ALL, and the sins of the WORLD.

Jesus came to reconcile mankind to God. The Israelites (his people) had been given the law, complete with sacrifices for sin, and the command to worship God ALONE. They were totally unable to keep that law and continually broke the covenant.
So God said he would one day make a New Covenant, Jeremiah 31:31-34. Jesus sealed this New Covenant with his blood, Matthew 26:28. He was the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, John 1:29; the Lamb chosen from the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:20. Jesus was the perfect Lamb, without spot or blemish, 1 Peter 1:19, who gave his life as a sacrifice for the sin of the world. By his death and resurrection he defeated sin and the devil. A person does not have to fear eternal death because their sin has separated them from God, they can come to him for forgiveness and eternal life they can know that God loves them more than they will ever know or dream of.

What is there in Romans, and indeed Scripture, which says that Jesus died only for Christians? Or did you assume that "us" meant only believers?
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,340.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I think you have misunderstood this with bad and good trees. The good tree (the born again Christian) produces deeds pleasing to God and the bad tree (those not saved) does not. Receiving the Spirit is for the bad tree, not the good tree. The good tree already has the Holy Spirit.
Then let’s do it this way. Is believing the gospel a good thing?
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,340.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
What is there in Romans, and indeed Scripture, which says that Jesus died only for Christians? Or did you assume that "us" meant only believers?
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
— Romans 5:1-2

I not making assumptions. I’m going with the text.

The “we” in v 1 and 2 is the “us” in v 8. You would never say that the “we” is all people. So there’s no basis to say the thr “us” is all people.

With that said, can I make an argument from this passage that Christ didn’t die for all? No. My point is to point out that neither can you use it to show that He did because it doesn’t fit the context.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,870
7,979
NW England
✟1,050,874.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
— Romans 5:1-2

I not making assumptions. I’m going with the text.

The “we” in v 1 and 2 is the “us” in v 8.

Yes, he died for us - just as he died for everyone.
Romans 5:6, Christ died for the ungodly.
Other Scriptures say that we were dead in our sins - yes, us and everyone else. ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We have come to Christ and received eternal life - that doesn't mean that Christ died for us alone.

With that said, can I make an argument from this passage that Christ didn’t die for all? No. My point is to point out that neither can you use it to show that He did because it doesn’t fit the context.

No one should take one verse and try to build a doctrine on it; that's why I listed other Scriptures showing that Christ died for all and the whole world.
These, together with Bible teaching that God created everyone in his image, that there is nothing that was not created through, or without, Jesus, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, that God is love, 1 John 4:8, a loving heavenly Father, Luke 11:11-13, and wants us to love our enemies and all those who don't like us, as he does, Matthew 5:44-48 - as well as what I know about the nature of God - lead me to believe that he sent Jesus to die for everyone.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,340.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Yes, he died for us - just as he died for everyone.
Romans 5:6, Christ died for the ungodly.
Other Scriptures say that we were dead in our sins - yes, us and everyone else. ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We have come to Christ and received eternal life - that doesn't mean that Christ died for us alone.



No one should take one verse and try to build a doctrine on it; that's why I listed other Scriptures showing that Christ died for all and the whole world.
These, together with Bible teaching that God created everyone in his image, that there is nothing that was not created through, or without, Jesus, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, that God is love, 1 John 4:8, a loving heavenly Father, Luke 11:11-13, and wants us to love our enemies and all those who don't like us, as he does, Matthew 5:44-48 - as well as what I know about the nature of God - lead me to believe that he sent Jesus to die for everyone.
What you can’t do, though, it take a verse that, in context, doesn’t support your claim, and just add it others and make it suddenly support your claim. If Romans 5:8 doesn’t say that Christ died for all people (which it doesn’t, as I’ve shown in context), then it doesn’t matter how many other verses you say support that notion. It will never make that verse say anything other than what it does.

If you have other scripture that says Christ died for all, I’d be happy to look at them. But Romans 5 doesn’t support that.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,184
1,809
✟801,523.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Regarding the drawing of men. This is a reference towards the parable of the nets in Matthew 13:47-50. It doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of all men to lead them to Christ or create a choice for the unbeliever to believe. If salvation is what the believer has to do then you are saving yourself. Jesus isn’t your saviour at all. Faith isn
God has given all mature adults a faith ability so all sinners place their faith in some thing or someone. The sinner can place faith in a stone or piece of wood which will do nothing for him/her. Saving faith is when the sinner directs his/her faith toward a benevolent Creator.

Matthew 13:47-50 is specifically addressing “…at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” That is at the judgment and has nothing to do with how a bad fish becomes a good fish?

God has a tremendous “draw” on all people, like the king in the banquet Parables, but even with this unbelievable wonderful banquet people will refuse to go. It really takes more effort to refuse the invitation then accept the invitation. Did the homeless person on the street who just “accepted” the invitation to the party have anything to do with providing the party? God is doing everything in providing us with unbelievable wonderful gifts that include salvation, but God is not going out and kidnapping guest, but allows us to accept or reject His invitation.
’t from yourself. It’s from God.
 
Upvote 0

Yesha

Westminster Standards
Jun 25, 2007
231
54
Connecticut
✟17,001.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Good question. We know that God so loved the world that he gave Jesus; whoever believes in him has eternal life per Jn 3:16. From this we can deduce that God loves all as he loves the world as the OP stated. Yet as the OP pointed out, there appear to be scriptures that say the opposite.

Starting from the point of agreement, we acknowledge that one must admit to being a sinner, repent of one's sins and believe/trust in the shed blood of Jesus as the only atoning sacrifice for sin. So you have asked the germane question of what happens to those who then die without faith? The common answer is that they are never reconciled to God as they spend eternity tormented in the lake of fire or they are annihilated. Yet these two scenarios appear to conflict with God's stated purpose of reconciliation in Col 1:21-23. Light can be shed if we take other Scripture into account:

Phil 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, as I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Isa 45:23 - I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Note that in the Isaiah scripture, God takes an oath unto himself that every knee will bow; every tongue swear/confess. When God takes an oath upon himself to make something happen, we can be utterly certain that it will happen. Thus every knee bowing and every tongue confessing will eventually happen as it is not a matter of "if" but "when." Since we acknowledge that the unsaved end up in the lake of fire it brings into question how they can remain there since all will eventually bow and confess that Jesus is Lord.

I appreciate your taking the time to explain this further! I wished to have responded earlier but have been tied up with other things.

Both Philippians 2:10-11 and Romans 14:11 cite Isaiah 45:23, so I think it is worth examining the latter text in its context.

“Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, you survivors of the nations! They have no knowledge who carry about their wooden idols, and keep on praying to a god that cannot save. Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.’ “Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him. In the LORD all the offspring of Israel shall be justified and shall glory.” - Isaiah 45:20-25 (ESV)

In these verses, the prophet is speaking to all the nations (v20) and telling them to assemble (v20), come (v20), draw near (v20), declare and present their case (v21), and turn and be saved (v22) by the God of Israel. Isaiah declares “every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance” (v23), but does not require, in context, that such bowing and swearing be willfully penitent submission to the Lord. In fact, he goes on to distinguish between those who are the enemies of God (“incensed against him”) and those who are the elect of God (“offspring of Israel”), the former being ashamed by their rebellion and the latter being justified and glorified. Isaiah is prophesying of the supremacy and authority of God over all things.

Paul quotes this passage in two places. In Philippians he writes:

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. - Philippians 2:5-11 (ESV)

That Christ condescended from heaven, took on flesh, obeyed the Father’s will, and bore the curse of sin and death on the cross was the means by which he was exalted to the right hand of the Father. In his exaltation he rules as the King of kings and Lord of lords so that all will ultimately bow and confess that truth to the glory of God. Paul uses these Scriptures to show that the Jesus is the Lord (Yahweh) which Isaiah had declared. He does not quote Isaiah to demonstrate the eschatological state of all people who have ever lived, but to show the divinity of Christ and his supremacy over all of creation. He is Lord of all, and all will confess this truth whether they are his enemy or his friend.

In Romans, Paul again quotes the prophet:

For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. - Romans 14:9-13 (ESV)

Here he is addressing the Roman saints as to Jewish customs. Should the Roman Christians adhere to these customs or not? To that end, Paul tells his brethren not to judge each other so as not to be a stumbling block for those who are weak in faith. He quotes Isaiah to show them that the Lord will ultimately act as judge of all. They are to show brotherly love for each other because they are accountable before him. It does not appear to me that Paul is using Isaiah here to point to any kind of universal reconciliation. Rather he quotes the words of the prophet to demonstrate that the Lord has sole authority to finally judge all those who stand before him, not that all who bow and confess will be regarded as saints.

Finally, John’s vision in Revelation:

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped. - Revelation 5:8-14 (ESV)

The doxologies within this section (v9-10, 12, 13) show that the Lamb, and he alone, is worthy of all blessing, honor, and glory. In this setting, these verses point to the redemptive work of the triune God through Christ and the undeniable recognition of him as King of creation. I do not think that the doxologies are soteriologic but Christologic. That is, they proclaim the glory of God in redemptive history through Jesus Christ.

Thus every knee bowing and every tongue confessing will eventually happen as it is not a matter of "if" but "when." Since we acknowledge that the unsaved end up in the lake of fire it brings into question how they can remain there since all will eventually bow and confess that Jesus is Lord.

I do have a question to which I am curious to hear your thoughts. In light of your interpretation of the passages referenced in your post, would you hold that Satan and his angels will eventually be reconciled to God? For example, in Philippians, Paul states that every knee in heaven, on earth, and under the earth will bow. Would you consider this inclusive of the spiritual realm and thus indicative of the ultimate redemption of the fallen spirits?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,870
7,979
NW England
✟1,050,874.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What you can’t do, though, it take a verse that, in context, doesn’t support your claim, and just add it others and make it suddenly support your claim. If Romans 5:8 doesn’t say that Christ died for all people (which it doesn’t, as I’ve shown in context), then it doesn’t matter how many other verses you say support that notion. It will never make that verse say anything other than what it does.

If you have other scripture that says Christ died for all, I’d be happy to look at them. But Romans 5 doesn’t support that.

Paul says in Romans 5:8 that it was while we were sinners that Christ died for us - having already said in verse 6 that he died for the ungodly. That tells me that Christ died for sinners and the ungodly - and as everyone is a sinner, and there are also other Scriptures which say that Christ died for everyone, that's how I understand it.

I don't deny that some people may read it as, "Christ died for US; WE are Christians, so Christ died for those whom God knew would become Christians". I guess you could read, or interpret, it that way.
But I don't see that that fits with what the rest of the NT says about God.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,340.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Paul says in Romans 5:8 that it was while we were sinners that Christ died for us - having already said in verse 6 that he died for the ungodly. That tells me that Christ died for sinners and the ungodly - and as everyone is a sinner, and there are also other Scriptures which say that Christ died for everyone, that's how I understand it.

I don't deny that some people may read it as, "Christ died for US; WE are Christians, so Christ died for those whom God knew would become Christians". I guess you could read, or interpret, it that way.
But I don't see that that fits with what the rest of the NT says about God.
Again, the “we” in v 1 is the “us” in v 8. The us are ungodly. That doesn’t mean, though, that He died for all the ungodly. You need to look at context. You are trying to fit your theology into verses that don’t support it.
 
Upvote 0

Ilikecats

Active Member
Dec 27, 2019
185
70
28
Alberta
✟57,244.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
God has given all mature adults a faith ability so all sinners place their faith in some thing or someone. The sinner can place faith in a stone or piece of wood which will do nothing for him/her. Saving faith is when the sinner directs his/her faith toward a benevolent Creator.

Matthew 13:47-50 is specifically addressing “…at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” That is at the judgment and has nothing to do with how a bad fish becomes a good fish?

God has a tremendous “draw” on all people, like the king in the banquet Parables, but even with this unbelievable wonderful banquet people will refuse to go. It really takes more effort to refuse the invitation then accept the invitation. Did the homeless person on the street who just “accepted” the invitation to the party have anything to do with providing the party? God is doing everything in providing us with unbelievable wonderful gifts that include salvation, but God is not going out and kidnapping guest, but allows us to accept or reject His invitation.
’t from yourself. It’s from God.

The parable of the net states that the kingdom of heaven is like a net. It doesn’t say that it becomes a net at the end of the age. I just used it as an illustration as to how drawing people to him doesn’t equate to salvation.
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,870
7,979
NW England
✟1,050,874.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Again, the “we” in v 1 is the “us” in v 8. The us are ungodly. That doesn’t mean, though, that He died for all the ungodly. You need to look at context. You are trying to fit your theology into verses that don’t support it.

I could say the same for those who say that God is selective in his love and will save only a few of those he has made.
And that doesn't mean I'm a Universalist.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,340.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I could say the same for those who say that God is selective in his love and will save only a few of those he has made.
And that doesn't mean I'm a Universalist.
The thing is, I’m not making an argument. So trying to shift the burden on me doesn’t bode well for your position.

Basically, your argument is “I believe Christ died for all, so that justifies my use of Romans 5:8, even if the context doesn’t support it.”

It would be better to abandon that verse as a proof-text, and find something else that better makes your argument.
 
Upvote 0