Lets talk about traditional liturgical Church Music

MarkRohfrietsch · May 16, 2020

The Liturgist said:
I absolutely love the high church and Anglo Catholic traditions in terms of liturgical music. In fact, the greatest Canadian composer, Healey Willam, was an Anglo Catholic. His music is so beautiful; I have a video of an LCMS parish using it in my YouTube library:

Very nice, thanks for sharing!

The Liturgist · May 17, 2020

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Innitiate an inquiry with the LCMS; find your district President, and speak with His office.

Regarding translations; LSB, Divine Service Setting 3, as well as Vespers and Matins retain "And with thy spirit" while the other use the more "novis ordo" "And also with you". When I was in college, I had the good pleasure of attending service at St. Mary Magdalene Parish in Toronto in the 70's; however Mr. Willian was alread in Glory for some years by that time. Amazing music though!

Indeed Healey Willan was such a great composer, and his parish I believe is one of the few ACC parishes which is still traditional (the beautiful 1962 Canadian Book of Common Prayer is one of my favorites, and was also the last traditional BCP to be published).

All4Christ · Jun 7, 2020

Chesnokov’s Cherubic Hymn - heavenly

dzheremi · Jun 7, 2020

All4Christ said:
Chesnokov’s Cherubic Hymn - heavenly

We do not have this hymn in my tradition as far as I am aware, but you might be interested to know if you don't already that it does exist in the Latin Church, where Qui Cherubim Mystice Imitatur, as they call it (after the first line), forms part of the so-called 'Missa Graeca', i.e., Greek texts used in Latin worship c. 9th century (so before the EO-RC schism). Here it is in Latin, sung by a Gregorian ensemble based in Amsterdam:

It may be a pipe dream, but I think it would be good if the RCC in general would recover things like this, both as an antidote to the current musical malaise of their ordinary form worship, and an embrace of what is after all their own heritage. Que será, será I suppose, but people can still try it out. Not to be a jerk, but I have a real hard time imagining people could prefer something like "Gather Us In" to this.

All4Christ · Jun 7, 2020

dzheremi said:
We do not have this hymn in my tradition as far as I am aware, but you might be interested to know if you don't already that it does exist in the Latin Church, where Qui Cherubim Mystice Imitatur, as they call it (after the first line), forms part of the so-called 'Missa Graeca', i.e., Greek texts used in Latin worship c. 9th century (so before the EO-RC schism). Here it is in Latin, sung by a Gregorian ensemble based in Amsterdam:

It may be a pipe dream, but I think it would be good if the RCC in general would recover things like this, both as an antidote to the current musical malaise of their ordinary form worship, and an embrace of what is after all their own heritage. Que será, será I suppose, but people can still try it out. Not to be a jerk, but I have a real hard time imagining people could prefer something like "Gather Us In" to this.

That’s beautiful. We have a Western Orthodox Church nearby which uses the Tridentine Mass and they have some Gregorian chant. I really enjoy hearing it, though they don’t have it in Latin. I didn’t realize it was part of the Tridentine mass already (I’m think that’s the primary Western liturgy from the 9th century though I easily could be mixing it up).

The Liturgist · Jun 7, 2020

All4Christ said:
Chesnokov’s Cherubic Hymn - heavenly

Indeed, his setting is probably the most famous, exceeding even that of Bortniansky in terms of pervasiveness. It is almost as quintessentially post-Nikonian Russo-Ukrainian/East Slavic Orthodox as the “Greek Chant”* setting of the Trisagion.

*This is a tonal setting which you will hear fairly frequently in a lot of Russian and Ukrainian churches, in an 18th century form of Italian-influenced chant not to be confused with the Byzantine chant melodies for the Trisagion, one of which is extremely close to the way the Copts chant it. Why they call it “Greek chant”, I don’t know, but its one of the common varieties of Slavonic chant along with Valaam, Kievan, and ancient Znamenny chant, and of course the very different West Slavic Carpathian tradition of congregational Prostopinije, which has heavily influenced the music of the OCA in the US, and completely dominates ACROD, as one would expect.

All4Christ · Jun 7, 2020

The Liturgist said:
Indeed, his setting is probably the most famous, exceeding even that of Bortniansky in terms of pervasiveness. It is almost as quintessentially post-Nikonian Russo-Ukrainian/East Slavic Orthodox as the “Greek Chant”* setting of the Trisagion.

*This is a tonal setting which you will hear fairly frequently in a lot of Russian and Ukrainian churches, in an 18th century form of Italian-influenced chant not to be confused with the Byzantine chant melodies for the Trisagion, one of which is extremely close to the way the Copts chant it. Why they call it “Greek chant”, I don’t know, but its one of the common varieties of Slavonic chant along with Valaam, Kievan, and ancient Znamenny chant, and of course the very different West Slavic Carpathian tradition of congregational Prostopinije, which has heavily influenced the music of the OCA in the US, and completely dominates ACROD, as one would expect.

As a singer in an OCA choir, I love all of these settings, though we tend to sing it in English.

My Russian Church Singing book has some insight on the reasoning for calling the setting “Greek”.

“Greek chant is of much later origin, having been notated in the mid-seventeenth century by Ukrainian and Muscovite singing-masters from the singing of several Greek clerics and cantors known to have been in Moscow at the time. As they were being notated, the melodies were russified beyond recognition, partially due to the fact that the diatonic scale and the system of staff notation employed by the Russians were totally unsuited for transcribing the elaborate modality and unusual intervals of the Greek singing. The chants were written down primarily in staff notation and only partially in stolp notation.

It is also possible that some of the melodies of Greek Chant were written down in Kiev, where Greek singers were also known to have been. In any case, the melodies of Greek Chant included in the Synodal chant-books exhibit a close similarity in their structure to those of Kievan Chant - strophic-periodic form and characteristics of mensural and harmonic principles derived unquestionably from Western European music, with which singers in the Ukraine were already familiar due to close contacts with Poland and the music of the Roman Catholic Church.

Green chant is also based on the principle of eight tones”

-Russian Church Singing Volume 1, by Johann von Gardner, pg 106

The Liturgist · Jun 7, 2020

All4Christ said:
As a singer in an OCA choir, I love all of these settings, though we tend to sing it in English.

My Russian Church Singing book has some insight on the reasoning for calling the setting “Greek”.

“Greek chant is of much later origin, having been notated in the mid-seventeenth century by Ukrainian and Muscovite singing-masters from the singing of several Greek clerics and cantors known to have been in Moscow at the time. As they were being notated, the melodies were russified beyond recognition, partially due to the fact that the diatonic scale and the system of staff notation employed by the Russians were totally unsuited for transcribing the elaborate modality and unusual intervals of the Greek singing. The chants were written down primarily in staff notation and only partially in stolp notation.

It is also possible that some of the melodies of Greek Chant were written down in Kiev, where Greek singers were also known to have been. In any case, the melodies of Greek Chant included in the Synodal chant-books exhibit a close similarity in their structure to those of Kievan Chant - strophic-periodic form and characteristics of mensural and harmonic principles derived unquestionably from Western European music, with which singers in the Ukraine were already familiar due to close contacts with Poland and the music of the Roman Catholic Church.

Green chant is also based on the principle of eight tones”

-Russian Church Singing Volume 1, by Johann von Gardner, pg 106

I have to get that book!

All4Christ · Jun 7, 2020

The Liturgist said:
I have to get that book!

It’s a great book, though I wish it had an index

I got it for about 10 bucks shipped from Amazon in the used section. It also is in St Vlad’s bookstore for new copies: Russian Church Singing, vol. I. Well worth the money

All4Christ · Jun 8, 2020

The Liturgist said:
Indeed, his setting is probably the most famous, exceeding even that of Bortniansky in terms of pervasiveness. It is almost as quintessentially post-Nikonian Russo-Ukrainian/East Slavic Orthodox as the “Greek Chant”* setting of the Trisagion.

*This is a tonal setting which you will hear fairly frequently in a lot of Russian and Ukrainian churches, in an 18th century form of Italian-influenced chant not to be confused with the Byzantine chant melodies for the Trisagion, one of which is extremely close to the way the Copts chant it. Why they call it “Greek chant”, I don’t know, but its one of the common varieties of Slavonic chant along with Valaam, Kievan, and ancient Znamenny chant, and of course the very different West Slavic Carpathian tradition of congregational Prostopinije, which has heavily influenced the music of the OCA in the US, and completely dominates ACROD, as one would expect.

FWIW, regarding the Prostopinije chant style - the OCA churches around my area do not use that setting although there still is congregational singing (the amount varies with different parishes). We primarily use Kievan with some Obhikod, and for the Cherubic hymn / Trisagion / during Priest’s communion / preparation for the Eucharist, we have more choral settings (rather than traditional chant). An example of this type of setting would be similar to the one I posted above. Hymns such as the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer are intentionally more straightforward to encourage strong congregational participation. We also use the Greek, Bulgarian, Znamenny, etc. The settings used, however, are rarely monadic. The standard known across all OCA are the settings marked Obhikod. Even if you use other settings like Kievan, the Obikhod arrangements are often a universal setting which can be used for joining together with multiple churches, etc. After all - that was one of the purposes of Obikhod - to be the common chant. (Yes, I know that Obikhod isn’t technically a chant type, and is actually a collection, but it is the term used frequently in our music).

ETA: I really don’t like spell check right now, lol. The dictionary doesn’t include half the words I’m trying to write and keeps messing it up.

The Liturgist · Jun 8, 2020

All4Christ said:
FWIW, regarding the Prostopinije chant style - the OCA churches around my area do not use that setting although there still is congregational singing (the amount varies with different parishes). We primarily use Kievan with some Obhikod, and for the Cherubic hymn / Trisagion / during Priest’s communion / preparation for the Eucharist, we have more choral settings (rather than traditional chant). An example of this type of setting would be similar to the one I posted above. Hymns such as the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer are intentionally more straightforward to encourage strong congregational participation. We also use the Greek, Bulgarian, Znamenny, etc. The settings used, however, are rarely monadic. The standard known across all OCA are the settings marked Obhikod. Even if you use other settings like Kievan, the Obikhod arrangements are often a universal setting which can be used for joining together with multiple churches, etc. After all - that was one of the purposes of Obikhod - to be the common chant. (Yes, I know that Obikhod isn’t technically a chant type, and is actually a collection, but it is the term used frequently in our music).

ETA: I really don’t like spell check right now, lol. The dictionary doesn’t include half the words I’m trying to write and keeps messing it up.

Indeed, I actually have an OCA hymnal which is a translation of the Obikhod. The presence of Prostopinije in the rich tradition of the OCA, which also has Romanian and Bulgarian congregations, is of course due to the absorbtion itno the Russian Orthodox Church of a large number of Ruthenian Catholic congregations who arrived in the US with married priests, expected married priests, and were scandalized by the prohibition of married Eastern Catholic clergy in the US imposed by the Roman Rite bishops (which may have been against RC canon law, although probably not, because I believe at the time the US was under the jurisdiction of the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation Propaganda Fide, who at the time was nicknamed the “Red Pope” due to his sweeping powers over territories entrusted to his congregation, which were basically those places which were not majority-Catholic). The OCA venerate a priest who led many Ruthenian Catholics into what became the OCA, St. Alexis Toth, and I admire him myself, because the demand, which the Catholic Church has since repudiated, that married priests who emigrated to the US either give up their vocation or their marriage, struck me as unfair and contrary to the promises the Roman church had historically made to the Unia or Eastern Catholics who had become a part of it. So my understanding is that in addition to the converts, in the OCA you have substantial numbers of members from, and some dedicated parishes to, ethnic groups other than immigrants from the Russian Empire or the Native Alaskans, including the Ruthenians/Carpathians/Rusyns, the Albanians*, and some of the Bulgarians and Romanians (the latter also having their own dioceses in the US, but the OCA, from what I understand, operates in partnership with those churches).

*There was an extremely admirable Albanian Archbishop, Fan Noli, who led the Albanian Orthodox emigres in the US and did his best to help those stuck in Albania when Enver Hoxha came to power and tried to completely suppress all religions in Albania, resulting in the most brutal Communist persecution of people of faith. I can’t recall if Fan Noli is venerated as a saint but he strikes me as someone potentially worthy of veneration owing to the extreme persecution his people endured and his efforts to preserve Albanian Orthodoxy in the US so that it could be restored to Albania after the Communists fell from power, which did happen, and there is now an autocephalous Albanian Orthodox Church in Albania. I am good friends with an Albanian Orthodox expat who works in maintenance in one of the hotels in my area.

All4Christ · Jun 9, 2020

The Liturgist said:
Indeed, I actually have an OCA hymnal which is a translation of the Obikhod. The presence of Prostopinije in the rich tradition of the OCA, which also has Romanian and Bulgarian congregations, is of course due to the absorbtion itno the Russian Orthodox Church of a large number of Ruthenian Catholic congregations who arrived in the US with married priests, expected married priests, and were scandalized by the prohibition of married Eastern Catholic clergy in the US imposed by the Roman Rite bishops (which may have been against RC canon law, although probably not, because I believe at the time the US was under the jurisdiction of the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation Propaganda Fide, who at the time was nicknamed the “Red Pope” due to his sweeping powers over territories entrusted to his congregation, which were basically those places which were not majority-Catholic). The OCA venerate a priest who led many Ruthenian Catholics into what became the OCA, St. Alexis Toth, and I admire him myself, because the demand, which the Catholic Church has since repudiated, that married priests who emigrated to the US either give up their vocation or their marriage, struck me as unfair and contrary to the promises the Roman church had historically made to the Unia or Eastern Catholics who had become a part of it. So my understanding is that in addition to the converts, in the OCA you have substantial numbers of members from, and some dedicated parishes to, ethnic groups other than immigrants from the Russian Empire or the Native Alaskans, including the Ruthenians/Carpathians/Rusyns, the Albanians*, and some of the Bulgarians and Romanians (the latter also having their own dioceses in the US, but the OCA, from what I understand, operates in partnership with those churches).

*There was an extremely admirable Albanian Archbishop, Fan Noli, who led the Albanian Orthodox emigres in the US and did his best to help those stuck in Albania when Enver Hoxha came to power and tried to completely suppress all religions in Albania, resulting in the most brutal Communist persecution of people of faith. I can’t recall if Fan Noli is venerated as a saint but he strikes me as someone potentially worthy of veneration owing to the extreme persecution his people endured and his efforts to preserve Albanian Orthodoxy in the US so that it could be restored to Albania after the Communists fell from power, which did happen, and there is now an autocephalous Albanian Orthodox Church in Albania. I am good friends with an Albanian Orthodox expat who works in maintenance in one of the hotels in my area.

Yes you have the background of the Prostopinije in OCA correct

And yes, there are some parishes dedicated to specific Slavic groups. They do have their own bishops even in the same area as other OCA churches, but they have the same metropolitan and are part of the OCA. I haven’t seen many personally though. In the parishes other than the ones just mentioned, there are also some people with Slavic backgrounds, but if they are in the mainstream* OCA group, they don’t use Prostopinije as much from what I’ve seen - they use the settings I mentioned earlier. My husband’s family is Carpatho-Rusyn. They used to attend an ACROD church (when he was a child), but they still use the settings I mentioned now that they are part of the mainstream* OCA. Also, the OCA today has more than just Slavic cradle Orthodox. My parish, for example, is primarily non-ethnically affiliated members, with cradle Orthodox being a mix of backgrounds, including people who are children of converts, those with no “Orthodox country” ethnic affiliation and people with backgrounds from Slavic, Greek, Ethiopian, etc (though there the Slavic background is more prominent than other ethnicities). My background is Pennsylvania Dutch with a mix of German, Irish, Scottish and Swiss ancestry

* I’m just using the word mainstream for a lack of a better term

All4Christ · Jun 9, 2020

The Liturgist said:
Indeed, I actually have an OCA hymnal which is a translation of the Obikhod. The presence of Prostopinije in the rich tradition of the OCA, which also has Romanian and Bulgarian congregations, is of course due to the absorbtion itno the Russian Orthodox Church of a large number of Ruthenian Catholic congregations who arrived in the US with married priests, expected married priests, and were scandalized by the prohibition of married Eastern Catholic clergy in the US imposed by the Roman Rite bishops (which may have been against RC canon law, although probably not, because I believe at the time the US was under the jurisdiction of the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation Propaganda Fide, who at the time was nicknamed the “Red Pope” due to his sweeping powers over territories entrusted to his congregation, which were basically those places which were not majority-Catholic). The OCA venerate a priest who led many Ruthenian Catholics into what became the OCA, St. Alexis Toth, and I admire him myself, because the demand, which the Catholic Church has since repudiated, that married priests who emigrated to the US either give up their vocation or their marriage, struck me as unfair and contrary to the promises the Roman church had historically made to the Unia or Eastern Catholics who had become a part of it. So my understanding is that in addition to the converts, in the OCA you have substantial numbers of members from, and some dedicated parishes to, ethnic groups other than immigrants from the Russian Empire or the Native Alaskans, including the Ruthenians/Carpathians/Rusyns, the Albanians*, and some of the Bulgarians and Romanians (the latter also having their own dioceses in the US, but the OCA, from what I understand, operates in partnership with those churches).

*There was an extremely admirable Albanian Archbishop, Fan Noli, who led the Albanian Orthodox emigres in the US and did his best to help those stuck in Albania when Enver Hoxha came to power and tried to completely suppress all religions in Albania, resulting in the most brutal Communist persecution of people of faith. I can’t recall if Fan Noli is venerated as a saint but he strikes me as someone potentially worthy of veneration owing to the extreme persecution his people endured and his efforts to preserve Albanian Orthodoxy in the US so that it could be restored to Albania after the Communists fell from power, which did happen, and there is now an autocephalous Albanian Orthodox Church in Albania. I am good friends with an Albanian Orthodox expat who works in maintenance in one of the hotels in my area.

I appreciate this discussion! I enjoy talking about all of this.

The Liturgist · Jun 9, 2020

All4Christ said:
Yes you have the background of the Prostopinije in OCA correct And yes, there are some parishes dedicated to specific Slavic groups. They do have their own bishops even in the same area as other OCA churches, but they have the same metropolitan and are part of the OCA. I haven’t seen many personally though. In the parishes other than the ones just mentioned, there are also some people with Slavic backgrounds, but if they are in the mainstream* OCA group, they don’t use Prostopinije as much from what I’ve seen - they use the settings I mentioned earlier. My husband’s family is Carpatho-Rusyn. They used to attend an ACROD church (when he was a child), but they still use the settings I mentioned now that they are part of the mainstream* OCA. Also, the OCA today has more than just Slavic cradle Orthodox. My parish, for example, is primarily non-ethnically affiliated members, with cradle Orthodox being a mix of backgrounds, including people who are children of converts, those with no “Orthodox country” ethnic affiliation and people with backgrounds from Slavic, Greek, Ethiopian, etc (though there the Slavic background is more prominent than other ethnicities). My background is Pennsylvania Dutch with a mix of German, Irish, Scottish and Swiss ancestry

* I’m just using the word mainstream for a lack of a better term

Indeed. I have visited some lovely OCA parishes which are very much multi-ethnic, and I really like that. I have also seen that in some ROCOR parishes (some are very ethnic, but others, much less so), and also to a great extent in Antiochian parishes that I have visited. I do however enjoy visiting some of the more “ethnic” Orthodox parishes, because of the opportunity for cultural immersion, and also the ability to listen to the beautiful hymns, live, in the language they were initially composed in, in several cases.

The nice thing about the Orthodox Church is it fits perfectly into my schedule, because the better Orthodox parishes have lots of midweek services.

All of this of course reflects the pre-Coronavirus and hopefully post-Coronavirus scenario. Given how things are starting to reopen, but there are still some...anomalies, its not a great time to be an enthusiast of liturgical churches.

The Liturgist · Jun 9, 2020

By the way @All4Christ , three other things: I actually think one of Bortnianksi’s settings of the Cherubic Hymn is even more beautiful than Chesnokov, specifically No. 7. I can find a YouTube recording in the highly unlikely event you haven’t heard of it.

I also have to confess I love the Cherubic Hymn in Rachmaninoff’s setting of the Divine Liturgy, which is in other respects admittedly unwieldy (but his Liturgy and All Night Vigils are beautiful, and sound much better and more in keeping with Russian Orthodox musical tradition than those of Tchaikovsky, who was a great composer, except when he tried to do more specialized work, like sacred music, or some of his military marches, the 1812 overture notwithstanding).

Finally, that book on Russian Orthodox music, would you happen to know if its available as an ebook?

All4Christ · Jun 9, 2020

The Liturgist said:
By the way @All4Christ , three other things: I actually think one of Bortnianksi’s settings of the Cherubic Hymn is even more beautiful than Chesnokov, specifically No. 7. I can find a YouTube recording in the highly unlikely event you haven’t heard of it.

I also have to confess I love the Cherubic Hymn in Rachmaninoff’s setting of the Divine Liturgy, which is in other respects admittedly unwieldy (but his Liturgy and All Night Vigils are beautiful, and sound much better and more in keeping with Russian Orthodox musical tradition than those of Tchaikovsky, who was a great composer, except when he tried to do more specialized work, like sacred music, or some of his military marches, the 1812 overture notwithstanding).

Finally, that book on Russian Orthodox music, would you happen to know if its available as an ebook?

By necessity (work), this has to be short

Yes, I love Bortniansky’s version. Lvovsky and Lvov as well. I did a quick pick of a search since I was in a rush - again right before work

Some of my recordings are also on CD and just aren’t easily available online for sharing. Many aren’t even digital yet, especially some of the Russian choirs.

I enjoy Rachmaninoff’s and Tchaikovsky’s settings, though that mainly would be for listening outside of a church setting for me, as the general English speaking church choir at times cannot do some of those settings. The ones I mentioned earlier are arranged often to be sung in English. Generally, I prefer Bortniansky, Lvovsky, Chesnokov, etc over Tchaikovsky.

For the book, unfortunately I do not think it is, unless it is on one of the digital transcription libraries for older books (I forget the site name right now). Many of the Orthodox eBooks are newer writings, and this is an older book. I hope it someday is available that way though. I could really use a search feature with it.

All4Christ · Jun 9, 2020

It is beautiful (an understatement) to listen to some of the Slavic choirs singing these arrangements. It also is very special to be part of a choir that also sings the arrangements. The participation with them makes the recordings of them even more special from my perspective.

More and more are being translated to English, which is very helpful. Not all translate perfectly - but knowing the meaning and being able to fully immerse yourself in it is a great thing to do.

All4Christ · Jun 9, 2020

@The Liturgist I love this setting...

Our Pan-Orthodox choir sang this (I loved singing it), but there are some parts, especially the soprano solo, that are quite difficult to achieve the best tone quality for a non-professional choir

The Liturgist · Jun 9, 2020

All4Christ said:
By necessity (work), this has to be short

Yes, I love Bortniansky’s version. Lvovsky and Lvov as well. I did a quick pick of a search since I was in a rush - again right before work Some of my recordings are also on CD and just aren’t easily available online for sharing. Many aren’t even digital yet, especially some of the Russian choirs.

I enjoy Rachmaninoff’s and Tchaikovsky’s settings, though that mainly would be for listening outside of a church setting for me, as the general English speaking church choir at times cannot do some of those settings. The ones I mentioned earlier are arranged often to be sung in English. Generally, I prefer Bortniansky, Lvovsky, Chesnokov, etc over Tchaikovsky.

For the book, unfortunately I do not think it is, unless it is on one of the digital transcription libraries for older books (I forget the site name right now). Many of the Orthodox eBooks are newer writings, and this is an older book. I hope it someday is available that way though. I could really use a search feature with it.

Indeed, I could not find an ebook.

I will have to get a print copy, which is okay, but I try to get ebooks of everything these days, as I find i just prefer reading on the backlit screen of my tablet, and there’s no danger of dust or papercuts.

Interestingly, there is a recording of an Anglican adaptation of the Rachmaninoff services, beautifully performed by the Choir of All Saints Margaret Street, a particularly famous, ultra high church Anglo Catholic parish near Oxford Street in the City of Westminster, the most important borough in Greater London*, which is available on iTunes and Apple Music, and through other means I am sure, The English Rachmaninoff. Orthodox music adapts well for Anglican use, because when you think about it, the two major events in both churches are the Eucharistic Liturgy, prefaced by Morning Prayer and a Litany, and a vesperal service, Choral Evensong in the Anglican tradition, and All Night Vigils in the Russian/Ukrainian/Belarussian tradition is . Now, the Anglican adaptation does not sound as good as a good performance of the Rachmaninoff vigils and liturgy in Church Slavonic, but it is still an excellent performance, one which also shows that it is possible to translate those services into English.

All Saints, Margaret Street - Wikipedia
All Saints Margaret Street | CD Shop

I would note that among ordinary Anglican parish churches and chapels, All Saints Margaret Street is one of the best in Greater London in terms of its music program (it had a boys school, and a boys choir, until 1968, and maintains professional standards for its adult choristers on a par with cathedrals; also it has a massive organ the size of a typical cathedral organ, built by the legendary British organ builder Harrison & Harrison in 1910 and restored in 2003). The other really good ones are the Christopher Wren designed St. Martin in the Fields (which has probably the best musical program of any parish church in London, on a par with the musical programs of St. Paul’s Cathedral and Westminster Abbey), with a boys choir, an extensive program of concerts, and other things; it is a particularly prominent parish as it is on Trafalgar Square and is the parish church of Buckingham Palace and 10 Downing Street, and St. Sepulchre in the City of London*, which is the National Musician’s Church and has a fantastic choir, although sadly their organ is in need of restoration and the funds are lacking.** That said, they do a splendid job singing a capella, and thus their music evokes that of an Orthodox parish.

Lastly, although not technically Anglican parishes in the ordinary sense, there are several royal peculiars in London, such as the Savoy Chapel, which has a superb music program albeit hampered by an annoying rector who likes to hear himself talk, the Chapel Royal at the Tower of London, which function like regular parishes, but are under the jurisdiction of the Queen, and Westminster Abbey is presently of this status, a Royal Peculiar the proper name of which is the Collegiate Church of St. Peter, although before Henry VIII and the dreadful Dissolution of the Monasteries it was a Benedictine monastery, as the name implies, and under Queen Elizabeth I it was elevated to be the Cathedral of St. Peter for a short lived Anglican Diocese of Westminster; these were dissolved I believe during the reign of King James I leaving it in its present status.

*Interestingly, the City of London itself, the Square Mile containing St. Paul’s Cathedral and the major financial hub, is not actually a part of Greater London but instead has its own Lord Mayor, government and a police force distinct from the Metropolitan Police (better known as Scotland Yard), a result of its ancient privileges which were preserved in the Norman Invasion as William the Conqueror did not relish attacking the ancient Roman city, which at the time had well preserved Roman walls and fortifications; these ancient rights were codified in the Magna Carta and persist ever since. Most of the famous tourist attractions in London are in the neighboring City of Westminster, such as Big Ben, Buckingham Palace, Westminster Abbey, and Trafalgar Square, and many people live in Westminster, whereas as a result of the City becoming host to most of London’s skyscrapers and its vast financial sector on a par with Wall Street, Zurich and Singapore, the resdiential population of the “Square Mile” has dwindled to around 9,500, but, even more strangely, businesses in the City are able to vote in elections for the Court of Aldermen, which is like a city council and are granted votes proportionate to their revenues, in an extremely bizarre, ancient and complicated system of government; also, the Queen must request permission to enter the City from the Lord Mayor which she does annually in an elaborate ceremony known as the Lord Mayor’s Show. There js a lot more weirdness, and several interesting videos on YouTube explain it. A friend of mine who is a Londoner, presently living in the Burough of Greenwich, which also has a number of tourist attractions, has, not entirely inaccurately, described the Square Mile as being almost like a separate country from the rest of the UK.

Because the City is the oldest part of London, being the historic Roman provincial capital of Londinium, it has the oldest parishes in addition to the Cathedral of St. Paul’s, but most of these parishes were rebuilt following the notorious fire which devastated London in the 17th century. A great many were designed by Sir Christopher Wren, the masterful architect who also designed St. Paul’s Cathedral, the dome of which, together with that of St. Peter’s Basillica in the Vatican, inspired the design of the domes of the US Capitol and many of our state Capitols, and also St. Isaac’s Cathedral in St. Petersburg (Russia). The collection of churches in the City is one of the most historically important and beautiful in the world, in my opinion, on a par with the Coptic quarter in Old Cairo, the station churches in Rome, the surviving churches in the Kremlin, and the monasteries in the Meteora valley and on Mount Athos in Greece (I also love the historic churches in Boston and the surrounding portions of New England, and my avatar is a photo of Park Street Church, a traditional Congregationalist church in Boston, but these are historic primarily in an American sense, although still important, rivaled by the California Missions and the fine collections of Eastern Orthodox churches in Pennsylvania, Oregon and Alaska).

** I would note with some sadness that these ancient parish churches in the City of London have for the most part struggled to survive due to the mass displacement of residents from the City in favor of office buildings. However, they have managed to hold on by providing, for the most part, short services in the morning, at noon and in the evening for the benefit of the numerous lawyers, office workers, financiers, bankers and others who work in the City, in several cases with multiple parishes sharing a single priest and being open on a single day of the week. Only a few, such as the famed highly traditionalist Anglo Catholic parish St. Magnus the Martyr, and the evangelical low church St. Helen’s Bishopsgate, still draw people into the City for Sunday service; one church, St. Dunstan’s, is shared with the Romanian Orthodox Church which uses it on Sunday, the Anglicans still using it for weekday services; this church is octagonal in shape and features an Orthodox altar behind an iconostasis in addition to two Anglican altars: File:St Dunstan-in-the-West Interior, London, UK - Diliff.jpg - Wikipedia

The Liturgist · Jun 9, 2020

All4Christ said:
@The Liturgist I love this setting...

Our Pan-Orthodox choir sang this (I loved singing it), but there are some parts, especially the soprano solo, that are quite difficult to achieve the best tone quality for a non-professional choir

It is really splendid. I wish there was a video of you singing it.

Lets talk about traditional liturgical Church Music

Unapologetic Apologist

Traditional Liturgical Christian

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙

Traditional Liturgical Christian

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙

Traditional Liturgical Christian

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙

Traditional Liturgical Christian

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Traditional Liturgical Christian

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Traditional Liturgical Christian

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