The Olivet Discourse

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sovereigngrace

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I'm quoting directly from the Bible? What Scripture have I avoided? I posted:



Daniel 7:13-14: “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

This is speaking of Christ rising into the presence of His Father – the Ancient of Days – to receive His reward in heaven. The narrative expressly says, “the Son of man … came to the Ancient of days.” This glorious event occurred after the cross when He triumphantly entered into the portals of heaven in a cloud to sit at the right hand of majesty on high. This passage correlates with many in the New Testament that show Christ taking His throne after His sinless life, His atoning death and victorious resurrection.

He has been reigning ever since!
 
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sovereigngrace

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I'm quoting directly from the Bible? What Scripture have I avoided? I posted:



The writer of the Hebrews outlines such, whilst addressing Psalm 110:1, and speaking of Christ, in Hebrews 10:12-13, stating, this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth [ekdechomenos] expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.”

The Greek word ekdechomenos in this passage is only found 6 times in the New Testament although this is the only place where it is rendered “expecting.” Notwithstanding, it fits in beautifully with the 5 other New Testament renderings which are found in varying tenses in the Scriptures and are separately interpreted – to wait, to look and to tarry. A fuller sense of the meaning could thus read, Christ is waiting, looking and expecting “till his enemies be made his footstool.” Moreover, the word employed here in the original relates to the present tense and indicates the current fulfilment of Christ’s glorious heavenly reign. His current reign is overseeing the ongoing Sovereign reign over the nations.
 
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pasifika

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Not so! You are just voicing personal opinion (which means nothing); you are not addressing the subject at hand. Preterists see AD70 everywhere in Scripture. That is all they think about. Revelation is about Christ operating in the intra-Advent and beyond.
Yes, that why the coming of the Lord will like a thief in night for them they will be caught off guard but those who knows their God will prepared and anticipate His coming...
 
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sovereigngrace

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No one here is advocating Full Preterism.

Do you believe the second coming is literal, physical and future?
Do you believe Jesus is coming to raise the living and the dead physically at the future second coming?
 
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mkgal1

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Earlier you posted:

The coming of the Son of Man is a future event that sees the rescue of the saints, the destruction of the wicked, the destruction of this current sin-cursed world, the general resurrection and general judgment. It definitely did not occur in AD70. That is heresy. Your obsession with that date is unbiblical, wrong and unhealthy.
......which is different than this:
Daniel 7:13-14: “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

This is speaking of Christ rising into the presence of His Father – the Ancient of Days – to receive His reward in heaven. The narrative expressly says, “the Son of man … came to the Ancient of days.” This glorious event occurred after the cross when He triumphantly entered into the portals of heaven in a cloud to sit at the right hand of majesty on high. This passage correlates with many in the New Testament that show Christ taking His throne after His sinless life, His atoning death and victorious resurrection.

He has been reigning ever since!
......and I'm totally okay with the belief that this happened upon His victory over death at the Cross. There was a nexus of events that proved (past tense) His omnipotence and glory.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Earlier you posted:

......which is different than this:
......and I'm totally okay with the belief that this happened upon His victory over death at the Cross. There was a nexus of events that proved (past tense) His omnipotence and glory.

You seem to be deliberately blurring history, as if these events are the same. They are not. They are distinct in Scripture and history. Preterism has to do this because it doesn't add up.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Earlier you posted:

......which is different than this:
......and I'm totally okay with the belief that this happened upon His victory over death at the Cross. There was a nexus of events that proved (past tense) His omnipotence and glory.

Christ ascending to His Father is completely different to Christ coming at His second coming to usher in eternity. You fail to acknowledge that.

Do you believe the second coming is literal, physical and future?
Do you believe Jesus is coming to raise the living and the dead physically at the future second coming?
 
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mkgal1

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Christ ascending to His Father is completely different to Christ coming at His second coming to usher in eternity. You fail to acknowledge that.
His eternal Kingdom has already been ushered in (He's already been given His everlasting kingdom) - you have already posted that you agree with that.
 
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mkgal1

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You seem to be deliberately blurring history, as if these events are the same. They are not. They are distinct in Scripture and history. Preterism has to do this because it doesn't add up.
Show me a passage that uses both the terms "Son of Man" and "coming back". Because, to my knowledge, "coming" in Scripture typically is synonymous with judgment.

Please don't misunderstand my question to be a statement that I'm denying a future coming of the Lord (because I don't deny that). I just can't think of any passage that supports your argument.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Show me a passage that uses both the terms "Son of Man" and "coming back". Because, to my knowledge, "coming" in Scripture typically is synonymous with judgment.

Please don't misunderstand my question to be a statement that I'm denying a future coming of the Lord (because I don't deny that). I just can't think of any passage that supports your argument.

Daniel 7:13-14 says, I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

He is not coming down to Jerusalem 2000 years ago, He is ascending up to His Father after defeating sin, death, Satan and Hades. Please read it. Where is Titus, AD70 or Jerusalem mentioned in this text.

The question that emanates from here is: where, in this vision, does the son of man (Christ) go? Is it to the earth or is it to His Father? Of course the passage answers this for us; “the Son of man … came to the Ancient of days.” The Son of Man is shown here not to be coming from the Ancient of Days, but rather going to Him in the clouds. Christ is coming to the Father. For what purpose? Christ ascended in the clouds to the Father to receive His coronation. He came to be given dominion, glory and a kingdom. Christ is therefore not coming from heaven to earth in this passage, but coming from earth to heaven.
 
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mkgal1

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Show me a passage that uses both the terms "Son of Man" and "coming back". Because, to my knowledge, "coming" in Scripture typically is synonymous with judgment.

Please don't misunderstand my question to be a statement that I'm denying a future coming of the Lord (because I don't deny that). I just can't think of any passage that supports your argument.

Daniel 7:13-14: “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

This is speaking of Christ rising into the presence of His Father – the Ancient of Days – to receive His reward in heaven. The narrative expressly says, “the Son of man … came to the Ancient of days.” This glorious event occurred after the cross when He triumphantly entered into the portals of heaven in a cloud to sit at the right hand of majesty on high. This passage correlates with many in the New Testament that show Christ taking His throne after His sinless life, His atoning death and victorious resurrection.

He has been reigning ever since!​
Okay.....can you share a passage that uses both the terms "Son of Man" and "coming back"? Because you stated:

sovereigngrace said:
The coming of the Son of Man is a future event
....and I can't think of anything from Scripture you'd have to support that statement.​
 
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sovereigngrace

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Okay.....can you share a passage that uses both the terms "Son of Man" and "coming back"? Because you stated:


Scripture speaks for itself. You can fight it all you want but it forbids your theology.

Jesus words in Matthew 24:27 correlate with repeated Scripture relating to the second coming: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden and visible as lightning. What is more sudden and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky.

The detail described, and applied to Christ’s coming, relates to His one final future coming of the Lord. The detail is literal. It is climatic. It is cataclysmic. It sees the removal of the bondage of corruption (all the awful result of the fall) from this earth and the cosmic planets. It also sees the regeneration of this current earth and its replacement with a new perfect order. This beautifully correlates with other climatic Scripture that shows a cosmic conflagration when Jesus comes.

Matthew 24:35-51: “Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. ] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

Mark 13:31-37: “Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. ] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”

Luke 21:33-36: “Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. ] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Men can impose whatever opinions they want on Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, but the only safe and trustworthy interpreter of these passages is Scripture itself. As you piece this whole subject together, it is crucial to bring as much relevant or corresponding sacred text to the table as possible for serious analysis. The informed Bible student will (or should) immediately turn to 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5. As you look at these two passages you are immediately struck by the fact that the writers use the same type of verbiage and similar climactic detail. It is interesting that other related words are attributed to the all-consummating event in view. Few could objectively question that we are looking at a literal event and at the magnificent coming of Jesus Christ in the future in all His climatic power and glory.

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed destroyed by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as Premils insists. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

It is not just that Scripture depicts the second coming as “the last day,” it is that it labels it also as “the end of the age/world.”

Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and tares (in Matthew 13:24-30), The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed among the wheat, and went his way …Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 39-43 continues, the harvest is the end of the world (or aion or age); and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (or aion or age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Jesus locates “the harvest” of both the wicked and the righteous at “the end of the aion or age.” We see that in this age the good and the bad grow together. But the age to come is not so. It is not open to the wicked. This agrees with the statement of Christ in Luke 20:34-36 which shows that one has to be qualified to inherit the age to come and the new earth: one has to be “accounted worthy to obtain that aion or age. The reason is: it is only for believers. This passage shows that it is in this age that “the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” This is talking about the perfect incorruptible glorified state. The wicked on the other hand are “cast … into a furnace of fire” where “there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
 
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mkgal1

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Scripture speaks for itself.
I don't see anywhere in all that where "Son of Man" is used along with the phrase "coming back" to support your belief of it referring to a future event.
 
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mkgal1

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The detail described, and applied to Christ’s coming, relates to His one final future coming of the Lord. The detail is literal. It is climatic. It is cataclysmic.
It is apocalyptic as the rule of first mention informs us.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I don't see anywhere in all that where "Son of Man" is used along with the phrase "coming back" to support your belief of it referring to a future event.

I am not held within your artificially created boundaries. I am not trying to change you. I post to show the reader the folly of Full Preterism.

Scripture proves that the coming of Christ in the future is literal, physical and climactic. It is not Christians dying as you advocate. You totally avoided each Scripture and each argument I have presented. You have to!
 
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mkgal1

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I am not held within your artificially created boundaries. I am not trying to change you. I post to show the reader of the folly of Full Preterism.
Again....no one in this thread is advocating Full Preterism. I think you're probably confused as to what constitutes Full Preterism (even though there have been multiple attempts to clarify that distinction).
Scripture proves that the coming of Christ in the future is literal, physical and climactic.
What specific Scripture, though? That's all I'm asking for - is for you to back up your assertions with Biblical support.
 
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claninja

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The consummation is the fulfillment or end of "something". Adding 2,000+ years to an ending would be the opposite of said thing's ending.



I believe the "something" is the old covenant age, which came to an official end at the destruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century, and within the generation Jesus had ministered to. Thus its end was "at hand"

You believe the "something" to be the physical world. However, the physical world's end wasn't "at hand". It's been 2,000 years, and thus it's end was not "at hand" for the 1st century audience.

What "thing" had an ending that was at hand in the 1st century?


In Full Preterism, yes.

No, just in general logic.
 
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