Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

ClementofA · May 16, 2020

nolidad said:
1 Kings 8:35
When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou afflictest them:

1 Kings 11:39
And I will for this afflict the seed of David, but not for ever.

2 Kings 17:20
And the Lord rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight.

Psalm 44:2
How thou didst drive out the heathen with thy hand, and plantedst them; how thou didst afflict the people, and cast them out.

Psalm 7:11
God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

You need to deal with the fact God does not fit into your preconceived agenda!

Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about.

nolidad said:
John 3:36 King James Version (KJV)
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

That's a misleading, erroneous translation that has decieved millions & been addressed here dozens of times:

The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

Journal of Analytic Theology

Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

XYZ said:
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36

How can the wrath of God abide (remain) on someone if it isn't already there? And the denial ("shall not see life") is not time limited. It is that the individual will not see life. Period.

Clearly it is "time limited". All were at one time "unbelievers" with the "wrath of God" on them. Yet many of those unbelievers became believers. These believers no longer have the "wrath of God" on them. There - was - a "time limit" to how long the "wrath of God" was on them. And likewise there was a "time limit" till those who "shall not see life" did in fact "see life".

Even apostates who had once believed are being sought by God for salvation & being corrected for their own good:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Saint Steven · May 16, 2020

Others, craftily seeking to evade these conclusions, invent the silly myth that in some unexplained way ALL MEN HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH BY GOD. These conniving souls presume that in some mysterious way God reveals Himself to each and every son of Adam sometime during his life. Perhaps through the conscience - or one dark night while the heathen is standing under the canopy of the heavens observing the majesty of the star-studded sky - there suddenly comes that burst of inner revelation there is a GOD! And if, in that instant, we are told, that man will seek after God he will find Him. To which I answer: -Tommyrot! Rubbish! ANOTHER GOSPEL! ANOTHER W-A-Y! And those who teach the lie are deceivers. Why, bless your heart, if God habitually and consistently reveals Himself sovereignly and independently to every man who lives upon this earth, then what need is there to print Bibles, or send missionaries, or intercede in prayer, or preach the Gospel? You will have to tear the Bible all to pieces if you teach such nonsense. It is blasphemy. The Word of God asks the burning question: "HOW THEN SHALL they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And HOW SHALL they believe on Him of whom they HAVE NOT HEARD? And HOW SHALL they hear WITHOUT A PREACHER? And HOW SHALL they preach, EXCEPT THEY BE SENT?" (Rom. 10: 14-15). And these poor deluded souls pretend to answer all these "HOW SHALLS" of Scripture by creating a method by which it CAN BE DONE! They have invented a system by which men can believe without hearing and hear without a preacher, and under this system no preacher need be sent.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

ClementofA · May 16, 2020

Der Alte said:
Godwin's law "as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"
Once again you presume to know what the writer of Hebrews should/should not have said in any situation.

EOB Hebrews 10 25 Instead exhort one another, and even more as you see the Day approaching. 26 But if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there is no more sacrifice for sins. 27 All that remains is a fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire which will devour the adversaries 28 One who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse a punishment, do you think, will one receive who has trampled the Son of God and profaned the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified, and offended the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “vengeance is mine, says the Lord,” “I will repay. And also, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31”It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
Thee is nothing said about any different means of capital punishment, which one is or is not worse than another.

True, but you are the one who has introduced such a topic. The remark has no relevance to my comments as far as disproving them is concerned.

Der Alte said:
The comparison is "die without mercy."

The implied comparison is between a punishment by stoning to death & a worse punishment postmortem.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Der Alte said:
All four means of capital punishment in the OT are "death without mercy." vs something worse.

Der Alter said:
There were different penalties for different crimes. There were four types of capital punishment stoning, burning, sword and hanging. But no matter how many times you post this smoke and mirrors Hebrews 10:28 is not about the various types of executions. It says "death without mercy" but there is a "sorer punishment." What is the "sorer punishment" than "death without mercy?"

Without "mercy", or "compassion (pity), i.e. deep feeling about someone's difficulty or misfortune (TDNT, 1:159)." Strong's Greek: 3628. οἰκτιρμός (oiktirmos) -- compassion, pity

So those stoning her/him - even inclusive of a husband/wife, brother, mother, son, daughter, friend - were not to have "compassion" or "pity" (Dt.13:8) on the sinner, as per the Scriptures:

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye ***PITY*** him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage." Deut.13:6–10

BTW, did you notice the - method - of death there?

Der Alte said:
vs. 26 if we sin willfully... there is no more sacrifice for sin.
If there is no sacrifice for sin there is no forgiveness.

That verse has no relevance to what i posted & has been dubunked as an out of context alleged "proof text" against universalism here:

Who Goes To Hell?

Der Alte said:
Vs. 27 judgment and a fury of fire which will devour the adversaries.

Who, or what, are the "adversaries"? The fallen nature of man? Sin? "Consume" what? The body? The soul? The sin, or fallen nature, or "old man" that must die before one becomes a "new creature" (or, "new creation") in Christ Jesus (2 Cor.5:17)?

Mal.3:3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness

That sounds a lot like 1 Corinthians 3:13-17:

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's
work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Compare v.17 to

1 Cor.5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Der Alte said:
Vs. 30 "vengeance is mine saith the Lord. I will repay. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"
Please tell me where you find UR in this passage?

It's also a dreadful thing to be stoned to death. Absolutely - nothing - compared to sadistic endless tortures though, is it?

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

agapelove · May 16, 2020

Der Alte said:
Not even one verse says that the unrighteous/unrepentant will be saved after they physically die. As shown by all the 1st and 2nd person pronouns Paul was talking to and about then living not dead people. Not even Titus 2:11 says the unrighteous will be saved after death.
In three different epistles [books] Paul lists many people who do not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Please show a verse, two or more would be better, where Paul says “Oops I made a mistake, all these people will be reconciled even if they were sinful and unrighteous when they died.

Paul makes no distinction between physically alive or dead, he is saying all of humanity had already died in sin. But EVEN WHILE we were sinful, unrighteous, unrepentant and already dead in our trespasses, Christ saved and reconciled us to Himself. The deed has been done.

Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Der Alte · May 16, 2020

ClementofA said:
...

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

...

When one quotes a source it is customary to identify the source by title, chapter, paragraph etc. Saying "This guy said this, that guy said the and some other guy said something else." is not a proper citation and meaningless.
You quote something supposedly said by Origen. Origen didn't say what you claim,. I have corrected you more than once before. Here is what Origen said.

Origen Commentary On The Gospel Of John Book Thirteen[1]
(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.20[2] Pg. 23

Note carefully this passages says absolutely nothing about "life after eternal life."
When read in context this says "the fountain leaps...into eternal life..." [John 4:14] In the next sentence "after eternal life perhaps it [the fountain] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life" The only thing after eternal life is the Father, who is greater that Christ. and perhaps the fountain.
Later in the same writing we read this

(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.[3] Pg. 80

Origen is quoting another writer who says of "eternal life" "never perishes,"'remains,""not taken away" and "is not consumed" And Origen never disagrees with this statement..
Reading further in Origen

(291) But neither is it possible here to understand the statement “He who reaps receives a reward, and gathers fruit for eternal life” to have reference to the same things as the statement, “He who sows in the flesh, of the flesh shall reap corruption, and he who sows in the spirit, of the spirit will reap eternal life.”

In this passage Origen contrasts "eternal life" with "corruption."
In another passage Origen writes this.

(292) For according to the Apostle’s words, it is the same person who sows and reaps, whether in the flesh or in the spirit, and on this basis reaps either corruption or eternal life. But according to the present words, it is one who sows and another who reaps.[4] Pg 128

In this passage Origen again contrasts "eternal life" with "corruption."

(408) These words prove that death is capable of being tasted, “There are some of those standing here who will not taste death,” etc., and the following prove that it can be seen, “If anyone shall keep my word, he will not see death forever.”Pg. 425

In this passage Origen contrast "forever" with "death."

(408) These words prove that death is capable of being tasted, “There are some of those standing here who will not taste death,” etc., and the following prove that it can be seen, “If anyone shall keep my word, he will not see death forever.”pg. 425

In this passage Origen says contrasts "forever" with "death."

(409) Now he who utters words contrary to the words of eternal life tastes death; and not only does he taste it, but he is also filled with death as food.[1] Pg. 289

In this passage Origen contrasts "eternal life" with "death."
[1] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, p. 289). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.

…

Der Alte · May 16, 2020

agapelove said:
Paul makes no distinction between physically alive or dead, he is saying all of humanity had already died in sin. But EVEN WHILE we were sinful, unrighteous, unrepentant and already dead in our trespasses, Christ saved and reconciled us to Himself. The deed has been done.
Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul did NOT say, as you claim, EVEN WHILE we were sinful, unrighteous, unrepentant and already dead in our trespasses, Christ saved and reconciled us to Himself.

Ephesians 2:1
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:4-5
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
Colossians 2:13
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

In both passages Paul is specifically addressing the churches in Ephesus and Colossae not saying that all mankind has already been saved.
Paul can't be saying that all mankind is already saved, later in Ephesians he says that certain groups have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

● Ephesians 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
● 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neitherfornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
● Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

In three different epistles [books] Paul lists many people who do not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Please show a verse or more where Paul says “Oops I made a mistake, all these people will be reconciled even if they were sinful and unrighteous when they died.
Here are more verses which states conditions for salvation.

Rom_8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
1 Corinthians 15:2
(2) By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
Luke 10:13-15
(13) Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
(14) But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
(15) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
Luk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

A fate worse than death, no salvation

Luke 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
Luke 20:47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

Greater damnation, not salvation.

agapelove · May 16, 2020

Der Alte said:
Paul did NOT say, as you claim, EVEN WHILE we were sinful, unrighteous, unrepentant and already dead in our trespasses, Christ saved and reconciled us to Himself.

Are we reading different Bibles? Verse 5 Even when we were dead in sin, He made us alive together with Christ 6 and raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Dead in sin sounds pretty hopeless to me. A person who is dead in sin cannot possibly be sinless, righteous, or repentant. They have to first be made alive in order to respond to their salvation.

Romans 5:6 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

ClementofA · May 17, 2020

Der Alte said:
"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

When one quotes a source it is customary to identify the source by title, chapter, paragraph etc. Saying "This guy said this, that guy said the and some other guy said something else." is not a proper citation and meaningless.

A link was provided.

Der Alte said:
You quote something supposedly said by Origen. Origen didn't say what you claim,. I have corrected you more than once before.

It's not my claim, but that of the quote.

In any case Origen does support the view of life after aionios life. See below.

Der Alte said:
Here is what Origen said.

Der Alte said:
Origen Commentary On The Gospel Of John Book Thirteen[1]
(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.20[2] Pg. 23
Note carefully this passages says absolutely nothing about "life after eternal life."
When read in context this says "the fountain leaps...into eternal life..." [John 4:14] In the next sentence "after eternal life perhaps it [the fountain] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life" The only thing after eternal life is the Father, who is greater that Christ. and perhaps the fountain.
Later in the same writing we read this

Even there you admit to an "after eternal life" in Origen.

Do you suppose the water of the fountain of life within believers (which Jesus gives them) will depart from believers & leap into the Father who is "beyond life aionios"? That this fountain of living water within believers will dump them & leave them behind while the fountain of life goes on its merry way alone? It doesn't sound very "inanimate" when put it like that, does it? Rather than leaving the believer to travel all alone, Origen says the fountain of living waters within the believer are leaping & "CARRYING him to that higher life which is aionios" (13:16). Then in 13:19a the implication is that "after aionios life" perhaps the fountain of living waters will also leap into the Father who is "beyond aionios life". The first time the living waters leapt they did so within the believer & CARRIED the believer to aionios life. Do you assume it would be any different the second time? Then in 13:19b Origen identifies the life as Christ, referring back to what was just spoken by the word "For". And in 13:26 Origen states believers "possess" the fountain within themselves. For them to posssess it, they have to go with it when it goes "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life". Otherwise they would no longer possess it & be lost.

And what do the Scriptures in John's gospel (which Origen is commenting on & quoting) say about this fountain of LIVING (not inanimate) waters inside of all true believers in Jesus:

John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee LIVING water.

John 4:14
yet whoever may be drinking of the water which I shall be giving him, shall under no circumstances be thirsting for the EON, but the water which I shall be giving him will become in him a SPRING of water, WELLING up into LIFE EONian.

John 7:37
If anyone should be thirsting, let him COME TO ME and DRINK."

John 7:38-39
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of LIVING water.'" But this He spoke of the SPIRIT, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the SPIRIT was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Der Alte said:
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.[3] Pg. 80
Origen is quoting another writer who says of "eternal life" "never perishes,"'remains,""not taken away" and "is not consumed" And Origen never disagrees with this statement..

(1) Origen, in 3:19 speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life".

(2) Even the words of Heracleon do not speak of aionios life, but of life that is (a) aionios and (b) never perishes, etc.. IOW it pertains to (a) an aion(eon/age) or multiple eons & (b) never perishes. If (a) meant eternal, then (b) would be superfluous, therefore useless info. Therefore (a) is finite. Which supports what Origen already said in 3:19.

So if aionios meant eternal there, to add "and never perishes" would be redundant, hence pointless.

Origen speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life". Clearly the translation "eternal" is wrong & the word for it, AIONIOS, is of finite duration. Compare Mt.25:46 where the same word is deceptively translated by KJV & its HellFire Boys Club clones as "eternal" or "everlasting".

Could most modern translations be in error?

Saint Steven · May 17, 2020

But, I ask, how are the heathen, or any lost men, to be justified by faith by this method since "faith comes BY HEARING and hearing by the Word of God," and "it pleased God BY THE FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING to save them that believe" (Rom. 10: 17; 1 Cor. 1:21). Nowhere in all the pages of God's blessed Book does it state that God sometime, somewhere, somehow, reveals himself to every man during his brief life in the flesh. Show me! Here is God's estimation of the condition of the heathen: "Wherefore remember, that you being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having NO HOPE, and without God in the world..." (Eph. 2:11-12).

If God independently and sovereignly reveals Himself to every man then the "Great Commission" is a monstrous farce and should be torn out of the Bible and deposited on the garbage heap. No need to "go into ALL THE WORLD and preach the Gospel to EVERY CREATURE" if the Spirit deals with EVERY MAN sometime, somewhere, somehow during his life APART FROM THE MINISTRY OF THE BODY OF CHRIST. Ah! The argument is really the great "cop out," a silly invention of conniving deceivers who are unwilling to face the fact that God would permit billions of men to pass through this life without any chance of salvation, and equally unwilling to concede that God has any plan for the salvation of those billions in the future. So - in order to consign them an to eternal damnation they concoct this outrageous lie that God really DID give these billions a chance, apart from the preaching of the Gospel of God's grace in Jesus Christ, that these rejected His dealing, and have of their own free wills been damned. Such a teaching contradicts the Word of God, making a travesty of the fact that "God has committed unto US the word of reconciliation" and has "given to US the ministry of reconciliation" (II Cor. 5:18-19). The fundamental flaw in the theory is that even if a heathen looked up at the stars one beautiful night and became deeply impressed that there must be a great God out there somewhere, such understanding in no way reveals to his darkened heart the wonderful truth that this God HAS A SON, that His Son's name is JESUS, that JESUS DIED FOR HIS SINS, and that ONLY BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST CAN A MAN BE SAVED. I challenge anyone to prove that the vast multitudes of heathen die having REJECTED JESUS CHRIST WHO DIED FOR THEM who was revealed to their hearts by the Holy Spirit apart from the preaching of the Gospel. How foolish can men be! Let someone answer - if they can! Ah, it is but ANOTHER GOSPEL! ANOTHER W-A-Y!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Der Alte · May 17, 2020

agapelove said:
Are we reading different Bibles? Verse 5 Even when we were dead in sin, He made us alive together with Christ 6 and raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
Dead in sin sounds pretty hopeless to me. A person who is dead in sin cannot possibly be sinless, righteous, or repentant. They have to first be made alive in order to respond to their salvation.
Romans 5:6 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Were you there when Paul "we were dead in sin?" Or when Paul said "made us alive?" etc.
You ignored the rest of my post evidently the full context does not fit the UR play book.

Ephesians 2:1
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:4-5
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
Colossians 2:13
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
In both passages Paul is specifically addressing the churches in Ephesus and Colossae not saying that all mankind has already been saved.
Paul can't be saying that all mankind is already saved, later in Ephesians he says that certain groups have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
● Ephesians 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
● 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neitherfornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
● Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
In three different epistles [books] Paul lists many people who do not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Please show a verse or more where Paul says “Oops I made a mistake, all these people will be reconciled even if they were sinful and unrighteous when they died.
Here are more verses which states conditions for salvation.
Rom_8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
1 Corinthians 15:2
(2) By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
Luke 10:13-15
(13) Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
(14) But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
(15) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
Luk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
A fate worse than death, no salvation
Luke 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
Luke 20:47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.
Greater damnation, not salvation.

agapelove · May 17, 2020

Der Alte said:
Were you there when Paul "we were dead in sin?" Or when Paul said "made us alive?" etc.
You ignored the rest of my post evidently the full context does not fit the UR play book.

Ephesians 2:1
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:4-5
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
Colossians 2:13
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
In both passages Paul is specifically addressing the churches in Ephesus and Colossae not saying that all mankind has already been saved.
Paul can't be saying that all mankind is already saved, later in Ephesians he says that certain groups have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
● Ephesians 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
● 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neitherfornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
● Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
In three different epistles [books] Paul lists many people who do not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Please show a verse or more where Paul says “Oops I made a mistake, all these people will be reconciled even if they were sinful and unrighteous when they died.
Here are more verses which states conditions for salvation.
Rom_8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
1 Corinthians 15:2
(2) By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
Luke 10:13-15
(13) Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
(14) But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
(15) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
Luk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
A fate worse than death, no salvation
Luke 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
Luke 20:47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.
Greater damnation, not salvation.

So are you saying only believers were dead in sin? Jesus only died for believers?

Der Alte · May 17, 2020

agapelove said:
So are you saying only believers were dead in sin? Jesus only died for believers?

Still ignoring the bulk of my post which should answer this question. No, Paul was only talking to those who had been redeemed in the two churches not stating a universal truth that all mankind was already redeemed.

agapelove · May 17, 2020

Der Alte said:
Still ignoring the bulk of my post which should answer this question. No, Paul was only talking to those who had been redeemed in the two churches not stating a universal truth that all mankind was already redeemed.

So Jesus only made 2 churches alive? Jesus only died for 2 churches?

ClementofA · May 17, 2020

Der Alte said:
You ignored the rest of my post evidently the full context does not fit the UR play book.

IMO the Scriptures you posted are easily reconcilable with Biblical universalism. For example:

Der Alte said:
.
● 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neitherfornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
● Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
● Ephesians 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
In three different epistles [books] Paul lists many people who do not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Please show a verse, two or more would be better, where Paul says “Oops I made a mistake, all these people will be reconciled even if they were sinful and unrighteous when they died."

Der Alter said:
Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that
qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?

It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Der Alte · May 17, 2020

agapelove said:
So Jesus only made 2 churches alive? Jesus only died for 2 churches?

Read my entire post spare me the gotcha comments.

● Ephesians 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

This was in the same book where he said "you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )"
Eph 5:3-5 doesn't sound like all mankind is already saved.

agapelove · May 17, 2020

Der Alte said:
Read my entire post spare me the gotcha comments.

● Ephesians 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
This was in the same book where he said "you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )"
Eph 5:3-5 doesn't sound like all mankind is already saved.

Salvation and theosis are two different things.

Saint Steven · May 17, 2020

agapelove said:
Salvation and theosis are two different things.

Right. More like metamorphosis.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

nolidad · May 17, 2020

ClementofA said:
Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about.

The bible shows God often and intentionally afflicts humans! Often the nation of Israel was sent into captivity and cruel punishment by God! Starvation, deprivation, torture and death and enslavement!

nolidad · May 17, 2020

ClementofA said:
That's a misleading, erroneous translation that has decieved millions & been addressed here dozens of times:

Still waiting for you to prove that nearly all English translations are conspiratorially deceptive.

ClementofA said:
The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

YOu have still not proved that Gods wrath on unbelievers is corrective, especially in light of the fact that believers were selected at the beginning of the world!

YOur Woodrow fella is very unconvincing in saying Kolasis means corrective punishment in light of the rest of teh Greek Scholarship and Greek speaking world!

And if you are implying that aionion life is a quality of life- that is simply a lie created by UR people with either ignorance of the word or intentional deception to fool those who have not studied Greek.

YOu forget that: "shall not see" is future deponent. It means that they will not see zoe! But they do have zoe now! So what won't they see? aionios zoes! there is no implication that iof they change their moinds! That is a creation to fit your agenda!

And your more "literal" translations are actually poor translations, which is why most of the believing world rejected these! "apitheo" is a compound word "a"= not pitheo is the root word of pisteo and means believe or trust!

Der Alte · May 17, 2020

agapelove said:
Salvation and theosis are two different things.

And your point is?

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

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