If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

zoidar · May 15, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
It is a bit hard for me to see how cause and effect does not somehow apply to everyone. We do indeed choose, but our choices are caused by all the things impinging on our thinking and urges. If, as God has planned all along, some of us are slaves to sin, we still choose to sin, even if it includes rejecting God. If, on the other hand, God changes us, giving us new life, so that we are no longer slaves to sin, we can choose him. You can talk about cannot, but there is always the will not. So how can they if they will not?

Their hearts were already shut. As for the claim that "God wanted them to believe, Jesus wanted them to believe.", if as you say, "they shut their hearts, making it impossible for them to believe.", God can indeed convict whoever he chooses, and as God's Word always has an effect, they closed their hearts and minds to it. I want to hear a good description of how the word "want" applies to God. You seem to think it is like with us. Christ said, "not my will but yours" to the Father. His humanity "wanted" to avoid what he knew was coming, but he well knew he also WANTED to follow through with the plan, for the joy set before him. God feels many things, no doubt, but what he WANTS, he will accomplish.

I believe in free will. We got different voices and we choose by free will which we listen to.

A few years ago God told me to do something. I struggled with this for a while, then I decided - by I believe, free will - not to do it, and I hardened my heart since I went against God's will and what I knew was right. Even God knew I would say no, he wanted and gave me the possibility to say yes. Could I have said yes, of course I could! Would I have said yes, yes if I had decided to, too bad I didn't!

The same choice was given the Jews. They did as I did, they listened to the voice that said no. Like God wanted me to say yes, God wanted the Jews to say yes. That's why Jesus talked to them.

With this said an unbeliever often doesn't want to choose to believe. That's why the Holy Spirit needs to convinct us. Of course the circumstances matter. I think it's impossible to know how free will and God's will meet. It's one of those "how and why" - questions. Long before I got saved, I had periods where I was a believer for a few days, but left faith again. I always convinced myself to do so. Allready back then it was a fight of "wills".

You seem to want everyone to have some kind of sovereignty over even God. Do you really think God's eternal plan, in every (and any) specific detail, hinges on our stupid, weak, ignorant, self-important hearts?

God allowing a person free will doesn't give a person sovereignity over God. God is sovereign. His plans can certainly not be thwarted, but I don't think God has a plan in specific details in every small thing.

Have you read 2 Kings 20? What understanding do you think this gives us on how God deals with us from his all knowing to eternal plan, predestination and our free will?

20:1 In those days Hezekiah became mortally ill. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him and said to him, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die and not live.’” 2 Then he turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, saying, 3 “Remember now, O LORD, I beseech You, how I have walked before You in truth and with a whole heart and have done what is good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4 Before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, 5 “Return and say to Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of your father David, “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD. 6 I will add fifteen years to your life, and I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake and for My servant David’s sake.”’” 7 Then Isaiah said, “Take a cake of figs.” And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.

setst777 · May 15, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Why

Neostarwcc said:
Why when Christ was ministering did he only refer to humanity in two categories Sheep (those who are under Gods grace and are written in the book of life) and Goats? (Those who are not written and suffer judgement for sinning against God)

Setst RE: The context reveals why. The sheep are those who revealed their faith by living out a life of love, showing mercy to others. The Goats revealed that they claimed faith, but their selfishness revealed otherwise. The Goats were very surprised they were not saved.

Neostarwcc said:
Why did Jesus say in John 10 that he willingly is giving his life for the sheep? And that he will "give my life for the sheep?"

Setst RE: Lord Jesus gave His life for all those who would listen to and follow Him by faith. Anyone could be his sheep if they humble themselves, repent, and put their faith in Jesus. God knows who those faithful ones are, and is the reason God came down from heaven, humbled himself, and gave himself as a sacrifice for our sins in the most humiliating, torturous execution imaginable. If a Sovereign God could have found any other way to save us then He would have.

Neostarwcc said:
If everybody can freely come to Jesus why did Jesus plainly say that nobody can come to him unless God the Father unhardens their heart and grants it to them? John 6:44, 66.

Setst RE: There is no Scripture that states that God has to un-harden a person’s heart so they can believe; rather, all through the Scriptures we see that God has to supernaturally harden someone’s heart in punishment so they cannot believe, because they repeatedly refused His grace when offered.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (NIV)
10 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

In John 6:44. Truly no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him. However, not everyone the Father draws will come because they will resist the Spirit and the Word of God (Acts 7:51; Isaiah 63:10; Psalms 106:32-33).

But for those who do not resist God’s drawing, those (the humble) are the ones who will be taught by God (John 6:45) through the Gospel, and will come to the Son.

1 Peter 5:5 (WEB) 5 Yes, all of you clothe yourselves with humility, to subject yourselves to one another; for “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” [Proverbs 3:34]

Psalms 25:9 (WEB)
9 He will guide the humble in justice. He will teach the humble his way.

Neostarwcc said:
I know John says in 1 john that Christ died for the sins of the whole world but there have been valid arguments around that for over 500 years now? Why are those arguments not considered or being considered as valid interpretations of scripture? And why is it the only verse in the bible that says that Jesus died for all?

Setst RE: The reason is that God is impartial, showing no favoritism – that is God’s Glory. All people on earth, therefore, have the opportunity to put their faith in God with the knowledge they have been given because of the Gospel.

There is not one Scripture that states that God saves or regenerates you so you can believe; rather, you must believe to receive the Spirit and be given life (John 7:37-39; John 4:14)

Only those who deny self and follow Christ by faith will become a new creation in Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5:15-17 (WEB) 15 He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again. . . 17 Therefore (for this reason just given) if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

We are a new creation only as we deny self and follow Jesus, just as Baptism represents (Romans 6:1-4). This is the Gospel Faith by which God indwells us by His Spirit to lead our faith to victory in the New Life of Love and Righteousness.

Neostarwcc said:
If Christ died for the world why did he say during his famous prayer just before he was handed over to pilate in John 17:1-10 that he was not praying for the world but "for those you have given me for they are yours" and previously from that all he talks about in his prayer are those who God the Father has given him?

Setst RE: According to John 6:40, who does God give salvation in His Son?

According to Scripture, who does God will to give to the Son? Verse 40 gives the answer. . .

John 6:40 (NIV) 40 For (‘because’ or ‘the reason being that’) my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

God only gives to the Son those that will believe in His Son. That is the Gospel.

Neostarwcc said:
Why would God even have written a book of life from before the foundation of the world which contained the very sheep of God? If he didnt die for the sheep? To explain myself further what would be the point of him suffering for the sins of the whole world if only those written in his book inherit salvation?

Setst RE: What would be the point? God foreknew, with great love, those humble ones who would come to love God and walk with Him in faith. We see this all through Scripture from Abel (in Genesis) onward. These are the ones God has chosen to be saved (Hebrews 11). So, anyone, or whosoever, believes can be saved if they humble themselves.

God has predestined to a great inheritance with Himself those who will put their faith in Him. Lord Jesus was sent by the Father to preach the Gospel Message to the humble whom He foreknew (Luke 4:18-19; Isaiah 61:1-2; Matthew 11:4-5; Matthew 11:28-29).

The Book of Life is not written in stone. Although God foreknows those who will humble themselves and believe in His Son, the Scriptures also teach that God can blot people out of the Book of Life if they do not remain faithful to overcome.

Revelation 3:3-5 (WEB)
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you.
4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.
5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Neostarwcc said:
Why does all of Roman's 9 support this point?

Setst RE: No one will understand Romans 9 unless they have studied the Old Testament.

God shows no partiality, but judges and forms each person or nation according how they respond to God’s grace (Jeremiah 18:1-11; 2 Timothy 2:19-21). God forms for noble purposes and for salvation those whose faith leads to a sanctified and righteous life before Him – doing good to all.

God hardens the hearts of those who are proud and obstinate, refusing God’s grace, so God eventually hardens them so they can no longer repent. We see this all through Scripture from Genesis onward to Revelations. God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

Neostarwcc said:
If God died for the entire world than why hasn’t the entire world been given the chance of salvation? People cannot deny that there are people called and considered "doomed" in scripture. Like the entire world in Noah's time when they refused to go into Noah's arc and believe him that the flood was coming. God said that he regretted making them and that they will perish. Also, if they had hope, why did God seal the door shut? Did they honestly have the chance at salvation? What about Judas, Pilate, the Pharisees and the very soldiers that tortured and crucified Jesus making salvation possible for you and I? True Jesus said "forgive them" but in other instances of scripture they were called without hope so that the glory of God may be revealed.

Setst RE: None of the Scriptures you referred to show that God has not given everyone in the world a chance.

Why did God destroy all those in the flood? The reason is because they resisted Him, and instead followed their own selfish pleasures.

But Noah, and seven others of His family found favor in God’s site because they walked with God in faith. God sealed the door shut because the people on the outside of the Ark refused His grace. Remember, God sent Noah to preach to them for over 100 years, and they refused to listen.

2 Peter 2:5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly

Neostarwcc said:
Also, notice during his 3 days in sheol Jesus only rescued the "righteous" dead and left the unrighteous dead there. If he left them there, not only why does God call them doomed but why didnt he give them the chance at salvation if everyone has the chance of getting saved? Why did Isaiah prophecy that most of israel was not Israel and would perish? Was there hope of salvation for them? When Isaiah called them doomed to destruction?

Setst RE: Exactly. After this life, there are no second chances. As you see, God was impartial, righteous, and faithful in rescuing from Sheol those that were righteous before Him – walking with God by faith (Hebrews 11).

Blessings,
Steven

GraceBro · May 15, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Why when Christ was ministering did he only refer to humanity in two categories Sheep (those who are under Gods grace and are written in the book of life) and Goats? (Those who are not written and suffer judgement for sinning against God)

Why did Jesus say in John 10 that he willingly is giving his life for the sheep? And that he will "give my life for the sheep?"

If everybody can freely come to Jesus why did Jesus plainly say that nobody can come to him unless God the Father unhardens their heart and grants it to them? John 6:44, 66.

I know John says in 1 john that Christ died for the sins of the whole world but there have been valid arguments around that for over 500 years now? Why are those arguments not considered or being considered as valid interpretations of scripture? And why is it the only verse in the bible that says that Jesus died for all?

If Christ died for the world why did he say during his famous prayer just before he was handed over to pilate in John 17:1-10 that he was not praying for the world but "for those you have given me for they are yours" and previously from that all he talks about in his prayer are those who God the Father has given him?

Why would God even have written a book of life from before the foundation of the world which contained the very sheep of God? If he didnt die for the sheep? To explain myself further what would be the point of him suffering for the sins of the whole world if only those written in his book inherit salvation?

Why does all of Roman's 9 support this point?

If God died for the entire world tgan why hasnt the entire world been given the chance ag salvation? People cannot deny that there are people called and considered "doomed" in scripture. Like the entire world in Noah's time when they refused to go into Noah's arc and believe him that the flood was coming. God said that he regretted making them and that they will perish. Also, if they had hope, why did God seal the door shut? Did they honestly have the chance at salvation? What about Judas,Pilate, the Pharisees and the very soldiers that tortured and crucified Jesus making salvation possible for you and I? True Jesus said "forgive them" but in other instances of scripture they were called without hope so that the glory of God may be revealed.

Also, notice during his 3 days in sheol Jesus only rescued the "righteous" dead and left the unrighteous dead there. If he left them there, not only why does God call them doomed but why didnt he give them the chance at salvation if everyone has the chance of getting saved? Why did Isaiah prophecy that most of israel was not Israel and would perish? Was there hope of salvation for them? When Isaiah called them doomed to destruction?

"The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

"that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." 2 Corinthians 5:19

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

Mark Quayle · May 15, 2020

zoidar said:
I believe in free will. We got different voices and we choose by free will which we listen to.

A few years ago God told me to do something. I struggled with this for a while, then I decided - by I believe, free will - not to do it, and I hardened my heart since I went against God's will and what I knew was right. Even God knew I would say no, he wanted and gave me the possibility to say yes. Could I have said yes, of course I could! Would I have said yes, yes if I had decided to, too bad I didn't!

The same choice was given the Jews. They did as I did, they listened to the voice that said no. Like God wanted me to say yes, God wanted the Jews to say yes. That's why Jesus talked to them.

With this said an unbeliever often doesn't want to choose to believe. That's why the Holy Spirit needs to convinct us. Of course the circumstances matter. I think it's impossible to know how free will and God's will meet. It's one of those "how and why" - questions. Long before I got saved, I had periods where I was a believer for a few days, but left faith again. I always convinced myself to do so. Allready back then it was a fight of "wills".

God allowing a person free will doesn't give a person sovereignity over God. God is sovereign. His plans can certainly not be thwarted, but I don't think God has a plan in specific details in every small thing.

Have you read 2 Kings 20? What understanding do you think this gives us on how God deals with us from his all knowing to eternal plan, predestination and our free will?

20:1 In those days Hezekiah became mortally ill. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him and said to him, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die and not live.’” 2 Then he turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, saying, 3 “Remember now, O LORD, I beseech You, how I have walked before You in truth and with a whole heart and have done what is good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4 Before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, 5 “Return and say to Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of your father David, “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD. 6 I will add fifteen years to your life, and I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake and for My servant David’s sake.”’” 7 Then Isaiah said, “Take a cake of figs.” And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.

You seem to imply then, that there is no difference between the regenerated and the rest of humanity, as to whether they can believe. The fact one is given a choice does not imply ability, any more than the fact one is given a command implies ability.

Hammster · May 15, 2020

GraceBro said:
"The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

" that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." 2 Corinthians 5:19

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

How are you determining the context?

zoidar · May 16, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
You seem to imply then, that there is no difference between the regenerated and the rest of humanity, as to whether they can believe. The fact one is given a choice does not imply ability, any more than the fact one is given a command implies ability.

As I've said many times, first you believe, then you repent, then you get regenerated/ saved. But not everyone believes this.

Hammster · May 16, 2020

zoidar said:
As I've said many times, first you believe, then you repent, then you get regenerated/ saved. But not everyone believes this.

Can a bad tree produce good fruit?

setst777 · May 16, 2020

Hammster said:
Can a bad tree produce good fruit?

zoidar said: ↑
As I've said many times, first you believe, then you repent, then you get regenerated/ saved. But not everyone believes this.

Hammster said:
Can a bad tree produce good fruit?

Setst RE: We must first deny serving the fleshly master, and then commit to follow Lord Jesus before we can ever become a new creation in Christ Jesus. For we only receive the Spirit by faith, and only by walking by the Spirit we receive do we become a new creation as the Spirit leads our faith to victory.

2 Corinthians 5:15-17 (WEB) 15 He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again. . . 17 ***Therefore (for this reason just given) if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

The Bible never teaches that being dead in sin removes any person’s knowledge of both good and evil because it was the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil that and Eve ate from, that opened their eyes to understand both good and evil.

Being dead in sin does not remove one’s knowledge of sin and its consequences. Being dead in sin does not remove one’s sorrow or remorse over sin, or the desire to be saved, or the desire to be free from the enslavement and ravages of sin to one’s life, even though the proud will resist.

For instance, when the eyes of Adam and Eve were opened after eating of the forbidden fruit, they felt shame and regret, and so covered themselves, and they felt great guilt and remorse, hiding themselves from God’s presence. Adam and Eve no doubt felt great sorrow for their conduct, but God still loved them, and had already planned the Gospel and revealed it to them (Gen 3:15), which was fulfilled in Christ Jesus (Heb 2:14; Jn 3:14-15; 1 Cor 15:25; Col 2:15).

Therefore being dead in sin means two things in particular:

Firstly, being dead in sin means being separated from God by sin.

Secondly, being dead in sin means being unable to escape slavery to sin or its consequences.

What being dead does not mean:

Being dead in sin does not mean the sinner cannot feel shame, regret, remorse, and sorrow over ones sins, or wished he could escape is shameful life. Some of those who are dead in sin will wish there was a way of escape, and others choose to serve their carnal natures. God makes that way of escape possible by the Gospel Call to save those who humble themselves – to those who seek to be saved from slavery the carnal nature and its negative consequences.

So, after hearing the Gospel and understanding God’s conditions for salvation, the humble (the afflicted, spiritually crushed, poor, and those heavy burdened with shame and guilt) will listen and repent, committing to turn from their former lives of sin, and then to commit to follow Jesus.

In contrast, the proud will become arrogant and will obstinately refuse God’s grace and resist the indiscriminate drawing of His Spirit and Word so they may continue to live in the darkness of their carnal minds.

Therefore, the humble have God to thank for His grace offered to them through the Gospel, while the proud have only themselves to blame for rejecting God’s grace.

Romans 1:16-32 (WEB)
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek.

Therefore, regeneration of the Holy Spirit is only by faith in Jesus.

John 7:37-39 (WEB)
37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! [Note: Lord Jesus command those who are thirsty to come and drink]
38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

You must believe first before regeneration occurs “within him will flow rivers of living water” only by faith.

We only receive the Spirit by an obedient faith in Lord Jesus

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

However to be regenerated by the Spirit, you must faithfully follow Jesus – which is to walk in the Spirit, because the Spirit will only lead those into a new life who faithfully follow Jesus – For the Scriptures teach that regeneration, the new creation, or the salvation of God occurs only by believing – a Gospel Faith demonstrated by listening to and following Jesus – walking by His Spirit that we receive by faith (2 Cor 5:15-17; Gal 5:13-24; Rom 8:1-4; Rom 8:12-14; Gal 6:7-10).

2 Corinthians 5:15-17 (WEB) 15 He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again. . . 17 ***Therefore (for this reason just given) if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

Galatians 5:16-25 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-14 (WEB) 12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

Galatians 6:7-10 (WEB) 7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption.
But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do what is good toward all men, and especially toward those who are of the household of The Faith.

Therefore, by faith we receive the Spirit. And the Spirit regenerates those who, by faith, walk by the Spirit. By this Gospel Faith, the Spirit leads us to victory into a New Life, a New Creation in Christ Jesus.

Blessings,
Steven

Hammster · May 16, 2020

setst777 said:
zoidar said: ↑
As I've said many times, first you believe, then you repent, then you get regenerated/ saved. But not everyone believes this.

Setst RE: We must first deny serving the fleshly master, and then commit to follow Lord Jesus before we can ever become a new creation in Christ Jesus. For we only receive the Spirit by faith, and only by walking by the Spirit we receive do we become a new creation as the Spirit leads our faith to victory.

2 Corinthians 5:15-17 (WEB) 15 He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again. . . 17 ***Therefore (for this reason just given) if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

The Bible never teaches that being dead in sin removes any person’s knowledge of both good and evil because it was the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil that and Eve ate from, that opened their eyes to understand both good and evil.

Being dead in sin does not remove one’s knowledge of sin and its consequences. Being dead in sin does not remove one’s sorrow or remorse over sin, or the desire to be saved, or the desire to be free from the enslavement and ravages of sin to one’s life, even though the proud will resist.

For instance, when the eyes of Adam and Eve were opened after eating of the forbidden fruit, they felt shame and regret, and so covered themselves, and they felt great guilt and remorse, hiding themselves from God’s presence. Adam and Eve no doubt felt great sorrow for their conduct, but God still loved them, and had already planned the Gospel and revealed it to them (Gen 3:15), which was fulfilled in Christ Jesus (Heb 2:14; Jn 3:14-15; 1 Cor 15:25; Col 2:15).

Therefore being dead in sin means two things in particular:

Firstly, being dead in sin means being separated from God by sin.

Secondly, being dead in sin means being unable to escape slavery to sin or its consequences.

What being dead does not mean:

Being dead in sin does not mean the sinner cannot feel shame, regret, remorse, and sorrow over ones sins, or wished he could escape is shameful life. Some of those who are dead in sin will wish there was a way of escape, and others choose to serve their carnal natures. God makes that way of escape possible by the Gospel Call to save those who humble themselves – to those who seek to be saved from slavery the carnal nature and its negative consequences.

So, after hearing the Gospel and understanding God’s conditions for salvation, the humble (the afflicted, spiritually crushed, poor, and those heavy burdened with shame and guilt) will listen and repent, committing to turn from their former lives of sin, and then to commit to follow Jesus.

In contrast, the proud will become arrogant and will obstinately refuse God’s grace and resist the indiscriminate drawing of His Spirit and Word so they may continue to live in the darkness of their carnal minds.

Therefore, the humble have God to thank for His grace offered to them through the Gospel, while the proud have only themselves to blame for rejecting God’s grace.

Romans 1:16-32 (WEB)
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek.

Therefore, regeneration of the Holy Spirit is only by faith in Jesus.

John 7:37-39 (WEB)
37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! [Note: Lord Jesus command those who are thirsty to come and drink]
38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

You must believe first before regeneration occurs “within him will flow rivers of living water” only by faith.

We only receive the Spirit by an obedient faith in Lord Jesus

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

However to be regenerated by the Spirit, you must faithfully follow Jesus – which is to walk in the Spirit, because the Spirit will only lead those into a new life who faithfully follow Jesus – For the Scriptures teach that regeneration, the new creation, or the salvation of God occurs only by believing – a Gospel Faith demonstrated by listening to and following Jesus – walking by His Spirit that we receive by faith (2 Cor 5:15-17; Gal 5:13-24; Rom 8:1-4; Rom 8:12-14; Gal 6:7-10).

2 Corinthians 5:15-17 (WEB) 15 He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again. . . 17 ***Therefore (for this reason just given) if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

Galatians 5:16-25 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-14 (WEB) 12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

Galatians 6:7-10 (WEB) 7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption.
But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do what is good toward all men, and especially toward those who are of the household of The Faith.

Therefore, by faith we receive the Spirit. And the Spirit regenerates those who, by faith, walk by the Spirit. By this Gospel Faith, the Spirit leads us to victory into a New Life, a New Creation in Christ Jesus.

Blessings,
Steven

Is receiving the Spirit by faith good fruit? Is it pleasing to God?

setst777 · May 16, 2020

Hammster said:
Is receiving the Spirit by faith good fruit? Is it pleasing to God?

When we walk by the Spirit we bear good fruit.

Galatians 5:16 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:22-25 (WEB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

We receive the Spirit by faith - only then are we regenerated - the Spirit of God living in us giving us life by faith.

John 7:37-39 (WEB)
37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! [Note: Lord Jesus command those who are thirsty to come and drink]
38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

You must believe first before regeneration occurs “within him will flow rivers of living water” only by faith.

We only receive the Spirit by an obedient faith in Lord Jesus

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,
Steven

Hammster · May 16, 2020

setst777 said:
We receive the Spirit by faith - only then are we regenerated - the Spirit of God living in us giving us life by faith.

You are just repeating yourself without answering the questions. I’ll try again.

Is receiving the Spirit by faith good fruit? Is it pleasing to God?

If you are just going to repeat yourself, no need to bother responding.

Strong in Him · May 16, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

Scripture says that Christ died for sinners, Romans 5:8.
How many people in the world are sinners? Romans 3:23

Who did Christ die for?
John 3:16, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Colossians 1:19-20, 2 Peter 3:9.
Why did Christ come?
Matthew 26:28, Luke 19:10, John 12:32.

Hammster · May 16, 2020

Strong in Him said:
Scripture says that Christ died for sinners, Romans 5:8.
How many people in the world are sinners? Romans 3:23

Who did Christ die for?
John 3:16, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Colossians 1:19-20, 2 Peter 3:9.
Why did Christ come?
Matthew 26:28, Luke 19:10, John 12:32.

I suppose it would be too much to ask for exposition on at least one of those references.

Strong in Him · May 16, 2020

Hammster said:
I suppose it would be too much to ask for exposition on at least one of those references.

What do you want me to say?
Paul begins his letter to the Romans (after initial greetings) by speaking of God's wrath against mankind, Romans 1:18. He says that God's glory has been clearly seen, so people were without excuse, but instead they chose sin. In chapter 2 he writes about the judgement of God. In chapter 3 he talks of God's faithfulness, in contrast to mankind's sin, and quotes from several OT Scriptures showing that people are deceitful, have turned away from God and there is no one who is righteous. He says that there is no difference, ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace. In chapter 5 Paul says that Christ died for the ungodly. He explains that it would be unusual for a person to give their life for a righteous man, though it could happen, but that God has demonstrated his love to us this way; Christ died for sinners. In this, Paul agrees with John who says "THIS is what love is; Christ Jesus laid down his life for us".

Jesus is the only One in the world who has been perfect; no one else is or ever will be. Even Noah and Job who are described as blameless, sinned. We are all sinners.
Paul later repeats that Christ gave his life for the sins of the whole world.

Hammster · May 16, 2020

Strong in Him said:
What do you want me to say?
Paul begins his letter to the Romans (after initial greetings) by speaking of God's wrath against mankind, Romans 1:18. He says that God's glory has been clearly seen, so people were without excuse, but instead they chose sin. In chapter 2 he writes about the judgement of God. In chapter 3 he talks of God's faithfulness, in contrast to mankind's sin, and quotes from several OT Scriptures showing that people are deceitful, have turned away from God and there is no one who is righteous. He says that there is no difference, ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace. In chapter 5 Paul says that Christ died for the ungodly. He explains that it would be unusual for a person to give their life for a righteous man, though it could happen, but that God has demonstrated his love to us this way; Christ died for sinners. In this, Paul agrees with John who says "THIS is what love is; Christ Jesus laid down his life for us".

Jesus is the only One in the world who has been perfect; no one else is or ever will be. Even Noah and Job who are described as blameless, sinned. We are all sinners.
Paul later repeats that Christ gave his life for the sins of the whole world.

I assume you are dealing with Romans 5:8. What is it in the context that leads you to believe that “us” refers to all humanity?

Strong in Him · May 16, 2020

Hammster said:
I assume you are dealing with Romans 5:8. What is it in the context that leads you to believe that “us” refers to all humanity?

It says that Christ died for sinners, and everyone has sinned. Some translations say Christ died for the ungodly.
Non Christians who have not come to Christ for forgiveness are ungodly, sinners, dead in their sins. Christ didn't die for the good, or come for the healthy who have no need of a doctor.

Hammster · May 16, 2020

Strong in Him said:
It says that Christ died for sinners, and everyone has sinned. Some translations say Christ died for the ungodly.
Non Christians who have not come to Christ for forgiveness are ungodly, sinners, dead in their sins. Christ didn't die for the good, or come for the healthy who have no need of a doctor.

It says He died for us.

“But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:8‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Etc.

So again, what is it in the context that leads you to believe that “us” refers to all humanity?

Or are you just assuming that meaning?

agapelove · May 16, 2020

Hammster said:
It says He died for us.

So again, what is it in the context that leads you to believe that “us” refers to all humanity?

Or are you just assuming that meaning?

The "us" is the "ungodly" in verse 6.

setst777 · May 16, 2020

Hammster said:
You are just repeating yourself without answering the questions. I’ll try again.

Is receiving the Spirit by faith good fruit? Is it pleasing to God?

If you are just going to repeat yourself, no need to bother responding.

I quoted for you Galatians 5:24-25 showing what the fruit of the Spirit are - the good fruit which is only possible by a repentant faith in Lord Jesus, abiding in Him (His Spirit dwelling in us - the nourishing sap) by faith.

John 15:5 (WEB) 5 I am the vine. You are the branches. He who remains in me and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Therefore, only as you abide in Christ by faith does the Spirit of Christ dwell in you to give you life.

John 7:37-39 (WEB)
37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! [Note: Lord Jesus command those who are thirsty to come and drink]
38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

You must believe first before regeneration occurs “within him will flow rivers of living water” only by faith.

We only receive the Spirit by an obedient faith in Lord Jesus

Receiving the Spirit by faith is not good fruit. Rather, by walking by the Spirit we receive by faith do we produce good fruit.

Galatians 5:23-25 (WEB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Blessings,
Steven

setst777 · May 16, 2020

agapelove said:
The "us" is the "ungodly" in verse 6.

Yes, very true. Christ Jesus died for all sinners, which all are. And whosoever believes will receive the grace of salvation which Christ purchased for the whole world.

Romans 11:32 (Word English Bible)
For God has shut up all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.

Romans 11:32 (Young's Literal Translation)
for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.

Although Christ died to redeem all people in the entire world from sin and death, only those who believe (whosoever believes) will receive that gracious gift of salvation.

Isaiah 53:6 (WEB) 6 All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 John 2:2 (WEB) 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

John 1:29 (WEB) 29 The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 3:14-18 (WEB) 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

John 4:42 (WEB) 42 They said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of your speaking; for we have heard for ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”

John 12:47 (WEB) 47 If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn’t believe, I don’t judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (WEB)
19 … God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and having committed to us the word of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:6 (WEB) 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony in its own times

1 Timothy 4:10 (WEB) 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Titus 2:11 (WEB) 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men

Hebrews 2:9 (WEB) 9 But we see him who has been made a little lower than the angels, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for everyone.

Blessings,
Steven

If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

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