Who Goes To Hell?

ClementofA said:

Julie, it has power, but will be abolished & all saved:

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That doesn't make any sense. Again, what your saying is the second death has no power. What power does it have?

1 Cor.15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

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Yes, after the lake of fire has done it's job there will be no more death.

And again, not everyone is written in the book of "life"

Why is this book called the book of "life"? What's the relevance of the name?

FineLinen said:

...

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FineLinen said:

That IN/en the Name of Jesus every knee bows, every tongue confesses "You are Lord."

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Scripture does NOT say that all will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
Exomolgeo occurs eleven times in the NT, in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back).”
It never means whole-heartedly etc.
…..Scripture says that every knee will bow but only believers will do so willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies.
How will the enemies of Jesus feel?
The word of God says every knee will bow. It must be important because it is repeated 3 times.
But the "fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, liars" etc. who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord. This is another important point it is recorded 9 times in scripture.
What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua shows us in Josh. 10.
The enemies of Joshua do not become faithful members of his army.

JulieB67 said:

That makes absolutely no sense. Again, what your saying is the second death has no power. What power does it have?

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Death in the Scriptures can refer to when a person's body dies, such as when Jesus died & was thereafter put in a tomb. It can also refer to death figuratively, or spiritual death, such as when Jesus says "Let the dead bury the dead". So, probably, the "second death" refers to one or both of those types of death, & the power they have. In any case, since death will be abolished & God become "all in all", as Scripture states in 1 Cor.15:22-28, we have good reason to believe that no one will remain in death forever, whether it's death or second death.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

JulieB67 said:

And again, not everyone is written in the book of "life"

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Everyone will eventually have "life":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

JulieB67 said:

Yes, after the lake of fire has done it's job there will be no more death.

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After people are judged & cast into the lake of fire (LOF) there will be a new heavens & earth (Rev.20, 21). The dwelling place of God's people will be the New Jerusalem (Rev.21:2-3) & therein - there - will be no more death or pain. Yet death will remain & not be abolished in the lake of fire, for torments there will continue "into the ages of the ages" (Rev.14:11; 20:10). At the same time, "into the ages of the ages", the saints will reign (Rev.21:5). Who would they be reigning over if no one exists in the LOF? How could pain be no more everywhere while the wicked are still being tormented in the LOF at the same time the Scriptures say the saints are reigning? How could death be abolished everywhere while the second death still continues? Impossible. Neither could Love Omnipotent be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while any of the wicked are still wicked and in pain being tormented.

1 Cor.15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;" 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (CLV)

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign into the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15)

9 And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name. (Rev.14:9-11)

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev.19:20)

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- into the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10)

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign into the ages of ages. (Rev.22:3-5)

The verses above indicate Christ & the saints shall be reigning "into the ages of the ages", including the millenial age & the age when the lake of fire (= the 2nd death) is abolished. But 1 Cor.15:25 says Christ's reign is UNTIL He has put all enemies under His feet. Since He is still reigning at the time of Revelation 20-22, all enemies are not yet under His feet. So neither is God yet "All in all" (1 Cor.15:28) nor is death [e.g. 2nd death] abolished yet.

So death is not abolished (1 Cor.15:26), since that is associated with the end of Christ's reign (v.25) & will not happen till He quits reigning. Also those humans who died a second death in the lake of fire, which is the second death, are still dead, so death is not yet abolished (v.26). As long as the second death remains & is not abolished, death is not abolished as per v.26.

Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28). God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

In Revelation 22:2 we also have leaves that are for the healing of the nations. Who at this time would need healing?

Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

The abolishing of death means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

For further reading, here is an interesting article on the subject:

http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/asinadam.html

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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213 Questions Without Answers:
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ClementofA said:

So, probably, the "second death" refers to one or both of those types of death, & the power they have.

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There's nothing probable about the second death. This is the second death,

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" That's biblical.

And again, by claiming everyone will eventually get life, you are taking away the power of the second death. And you still haven't answered- what power does the second death have? If everyone eventually gets life, what power does the second death have over anyone?

Salvation is there for all mankind to partake in, but according to Revelation, that will not be the case. And God doesn't want to have to throw someone into the lake of fire for someone to love him, that's not true love.

In the 1000 year reign there will be much teaching, but even after Satan will be back to try and deceive more. If it didn't matter ultimately, what's the point?

And again, what's the relevance of naming the book of "life"?

As for the recommendations, thanks, but I'll just keep to the Bible (chapter by chapter, verse by verse) and my Hebrew/Greek Strongs since many words can get lost in translation and many words can have different meanings in different verses, etc.

JulieB67 said:

But this is certainly telling us, if you are thrown into the lake of fire, your soul will be fully destroyed.

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The Bible does - not - tell us that those in the lake of fire are nonexistent, but that they are to be tormented alive into the ages of the ages (Rev.14:11; 20:10).

If Love Omnipotent was going to burn & torture them alive "into the ages of the ages" and thereafter annihilate them & never bring them back, that would be sadistic like the endless tortures dogma.

If the Saviour of ALL believed they would cease to exist for endless ages, He had the language to make that clear. If that was His view then why would He, instead, speak of them being tormented?

Love Omnipotent is not going to do an endless Hitler thing on the beings He created. That would be to His shame, not His glory.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, ***to the glory of God the Father.*** (NASB)

JulieB67 said:

God is a consuming fire.

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Indeed Love Omnipotent is a fire. What is He as Fire going to consume:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

JulieB67 said:

But God only wants those that truly love him. That's who he wants to spend at eternity with.

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Evidently Love Omnipotent wants to save all:

"Premise 1: God desires all be saved. (e.g., 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires (thelo) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.")

Premise 2: God accomplishes all He desires. (e.g., Isaiah 55:11: "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire (thelo, from the Septuagint), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.")

Conclusion: All will be saved."

If Love Omnipotent doesn't save all is it because He can't or doesn't want to?

JulieB67 said:

And he's giving them ample opportunity.

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So His patience has run out after a few attempts & a few years or decades? He has no choice but to endlessly terminate His created children? How will that glorify Him?

Look what King David did after all the "opportunity" given him. He commited premeditated adultery & murder.

Look what Thomas did after all the "opportunity" given him. He refused to believe in Jesus' resurrection or the testimony of His disciples who had seen Him. He demanded to see Him & put His hands inside Him before He would ever believe. Sounds like a lot of atheists who never got anywhere near the "opportunities" Thomas got in being with Jesus for years.

Then there's the "worst of sinners" ever, Saul who became Paul the greatest apostle, who was formerly a serial killer of Christians.

JulieB67 said:

And why the warnings from Christ and Paul about the tribulation on not being deceived if ultimately it doesn't matter.?

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They certainly matter. Just not in the monstrous horror myth story way many think.

JulieB67 said:

They both say beware. And Christ tells us that during that time, in our patience we are to possess our souls. Meaning our souls are at stake during the time of the tribulation.

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How were they to "possess their souls" (Lk.21:19)? Didn't they already possesss them?

"But by your perseverance you shall possess your souls." (Lk.21:19)

Better to be patiently persevering in following Christ & thereby take possession of your soul. Otherwise tormenting insane demonic spirits may take "possession" of it instead.

King Neb in Daniel ate grass like an animal for 7 years. It could be said he wasn't "possessing his soul", but had lost it & his soul had been destroyed (i.e. ruined). Yet after those 7 years the Saviour of all restored His soul from that destruction. He reversed the destruction & destroyed it. He got his soul back & possessed it again.

Some versions say "lives" instead of "souls" (Lk.21:19).

The NASB often translates the Greek word - psuché - as "life":

"heart (2), heartily (1), life (36), lives (7), mind (1), minds (1), person (1), persons (3), soul (33), souls (14), suspense* (1), thing (1)."

Strong's Greek: 5590. ψυχή (psuché) -- breath, the soul

"This passage may be thus translated: By persevering in bearing these trials you "will" save your lives, or you will be safe..." (Barnes Notes on the Bible)

JulieB67 said:

But again, why all this teaching if it doesn't matter in the long run? What's the point?

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1) You should want to avoid being tormented "into the ages of the ages" (Rev.14:11; cf 20:10). Or being given over to tormenting demons (Mt.18:34-35), as opposed to having a clear peace filled conscience.

2) You should want to do what's right for the sake of others. Because it's right, Jesus first loved you, you know it & therefore love others.

3) That's like asking, "why shouldn't i steal? When i get caught & go to prison where i get gang raped, what will it matter in the long run? I'll be free again in a while."

The word translated "might be saved" is an "aorist passive subjunctive" The subjunctive is the mood of possibility, potentiality. The action may or may not happen. If Jesus had wanted to say the "world through him shall be saved" He would have used the "future passive indicative" as He did in Joh 10:9

WebersHome said:

That's very true; in point of fact John the Baptist made an announcement very similar to that.

● John 1:29 . .The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said: Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

However, not everyone takes advantage of the Lamb's offering. Those that do are taken into God's home as His own kin, whereas those who don't are banished.

● John 1:10-13 . . He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

● John 3:17-18 . . For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already.
_

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Here's the actual reference FL was quoting. (for what it's worth)
What do you suppose is meant by the phrase "not only for ours"?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Saint Steven said:

Here's the actual reference FL was quoting. (for what it's worth)
What do you suppose is meant by the phrase "not only for ours"?
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

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But there are conditions.

WebersHome said:

That's very true; in point of fact John the Baptist made an announcement very similar to that.

● John 1:29 . .The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said: Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

However, not everyone takes advantage of the Lamb's offering.

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It appeared for a nano second your limited vision of despair had vanished, but alas, we arrived at that however.

There is no "however" ! Zero !

The Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world period (.)

Takes away = lambano = to seize & carry away.

Saint Steven said:

Here's the actual reference FL was quoting. (for what it's worth)
What do you suppose is meant by the phrase "not only for ours"?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

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JulieB67 said:

There's nothing probable about the second death. This is the second death,

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" That's biblical.

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True, that's Biblical, or at least what one English translation (= human opinion) says about the Greek texts. A random English translation doesn't necessarily mean truth or Scripture.

JulieB67 said:

And again, by claiming everyone will eventually get life, you are taking away the power of the second death.

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I don't see the logic in that. Maybe you can explain.

JulieB67 said:

And you still haven't answered- what power does the second death have? If everyone eventually gets life, what power does the second death have over anyone?

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Evidently those in the second death do not - yet - have life in Christ. So it's power may be preventing them having life in Christ. Until Christ overrules & abolishes that power (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes "all in all" (v.28). After all He has the keys of Hades & death.

Scripture says people are "hurt" or injured by the second death (Rev.2:11) and "tormented" there (Rev.14:11; 20:10), not snuffed out of existence never to return to life again.

JulieB67 said:

Salvation is there for all mankind to partake in, but according to Revelation, that will not be the case.

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Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb into the ages of the ages.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

Of course, like all sinners, which all men are before salvation, they must be saved before they can enter the New Jerusalem. That's why it's gates will never be shut.

On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. (Rev.21:25)

The kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it:

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

How can they do that unless they were outside the city gates before?

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

JulieB67 said:

And God doesn't want to have to throw someone into the lake of fire for someone to love him, that's not true love.

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Oh? So it wasn't "true love" what Love Omnipotent did to Job's family & body? Or what the Saviour of the world did in giving Paul a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to buffet him? Or giving a stubbornly sinning "brother" in the church over to Satan for destruction of the flesh? Or making women suffer in child birth?

So instead of spanking a child in tough love, you'ld consider true love to be what? Burning the child to death with torments in a lake of fire? And when that child's torments have ceased & he's finally dead & nonexistent, never bring him back again or love him again for all the endless ages of etenity? That's a long time for an all powerful Almighty Omnipotent Omniscient Being Who - IS - Love (the kind that sacrifices itself on a cross) to hate & hold a grudge against someone for the mistakes of a very brief life.

Der Alte said:

Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew. Book XIV.
12. And to another, who had multiplied the pound fivefold, he did not render the praise which he assigned to the first, nor did he specify the word “authority,” as in the case of the first, but said to him, “Be thou also over five cities.”62 But to him who had tied up the pound in a napkin, he said, “Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant;” (Luk_19:22) and he said to them that stood by. Take from him the pound, and give it unto him that hath the ten pounds (Luk_19:24) Who, then, in regard to this parable, will not say that the nobleman, who goes into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return, is Christ, going, as it were, into another country to receive the kingdoms of this world, and the things in it? And those who have received the ten talents are those who have been entrusted with the dispensation of the Word which has been committed unto them. And His citizens who did not wish Him to reign over them when He was a citizen in the world in respect of His incarnation, (Luk_19:14) are perhaps Israel who disbelieved Him, and perhaps also the Gentiles who disbelieved Him.​

This writing by Origen is much longer but this quote states it quite succinctly.

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Hmm, who here is using canned arguments now?

JulieB67 said:

That doesn't make any sense. Again, what your saying is the second death has no power. What power does it have?

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“Love loves unto purity. ... Therefore all that is not beautiful in the beloved, all that comes between and is not of love's kind, must be destroyed. And our God is a consuming fire.” George MacDonald's Unspoken Sermons "The Consuming Fire"

JulieB67 said:

Yes, after the lake of fire has done it's job there will be no more death.

And again, not everyone is written in the book of "life"

Why is this book called the book of "life"? What's the relevance of the name?

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“All that is not God is death.”

ClementofA said:

So instead of spanking a child in tough love, you'ld consider true love to be what? Burning the child to death with torments in a lake of fire? And when that child's torments have ceased & he's finally dead & nonexistent, never bring him back again or love him again for all the endless ages of eternity? That's a long time for an all powerful Almighty Omnipotent Omniscient Being Who - IS - Love (the kind that sacrifices itself on a cross) to hate & hold a grudge against someone for the mistakes of a very brief life.

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As the years roll along, the grasp by many in the fundy thinking world, causes me to question why there are not more who refuse to acknowledge such a hopeless being.

For me, anything that yields less than a premium rate of return by the Glorious One is totally unacceptable.

ClementofA said:

Oh? So it wasn't "true love" what Love Omnipotent did to Job's family & body? Or what the Saviour of the world did in giving Paul a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to buffet him? Or giving a stubbornly sinning "brother" in the church over to Satan for destruction of the flesh? Or making women suffer in child birth?

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We will have normal suffering in this lifetime, some more than others like Job who God was proving his faith by example. Job already loved God before that. That has nothing to do with the second death, the death of the soul. These are the ones that after the 1000 year reign, are still not in the book of life. Again God gives us free will and wants our love willingly. He will not force it.

ClementofA said:

So instead of spanking a child in tough love, you'ld consider true love to be what? Burning the child to death with torments in a lake of fire? And when that child's torments have ceased & he's finally dead & nonexistent, never bring him back again or love him again for all the endless ages of etenity? That's a long time for an all powerful Almighty Omnipotent Omniscient Being Who - IS - Love (the kind that sacrifices itself on a cross) to hate & hold a grudge against someone for the mistakes of a very brief life.

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You're the one that believes in years of burning torment, not me.

Do you believe burning someone alive for a years and years shows true love?

ClementofA said:

"Hell" becomes empty at Revelation 20:13.

Mercy triumphs over judgment (James 2:13b), i.e. over damnation.

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You forgot to mention the 2 following verses which state that those not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire along with hell.

"13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

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Saint Steven said:

What do you suppose is meant by the phrase "not only for ours"?

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The information you seek is located in post No.505
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JulieB67 said:

You're the one that believes in years of burning torment, not me.

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It's Love Omnipotent, in His Scriptures, who says they'll be tormented, as per all the Scriptures i gave you & you are repeatedly ignoring.

And neither I or the Scriptures i quoted said anything about "years of burning torment". Though i'm sure many people in this lifetime do suffer torments, sometimes for not only years, but decades. And it is our God, the all powerful, who could easily stop it all, but allows it to continue. Ever wonder why?

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

JulieB67 said:

Do you believe burning someone alive for a 1000 years shows true love?

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How many people has Love Omnipotent allowed to be literally burned alive with physical fire or other torture methods in this life? Most suffer various kinds & degrees of torment for hours, days, years or decades, whether it's physical or verbal abuse or something else. How many - millions - of years of torments does that add up to? Does the Saviour of all allowing all that "show true love"?

Do you consider Him unjust if He allows millions of more years of total torments in the lake of fire? Compared to the endless bliss they will all enjoy, a trillion years of torments each would be nothing & well worth it. But in order to spare them a relatively brief period of torments, you would prefer they be deprived of peace, joy & love for all eternity. How should a loving parent feel about that if it was their child being gone from them forever?

The duration of the torments in the Scriptures i posted is not revealed. Neither are we told that the fire is literal. Or what is causing the torments. Could it be that they are being tormented by conviction of their sins? Or by demons possessing them? Or because they aren't being allowed to engage in their former sins? Or some other cause? Because they continue in their stubborness against the truth to rebel rather than repent?

JulieB67 said:

And God doesn't want to have to throw someone into the lake of fire for someone to love him, that's not true love.

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Oh? So it wasn't "true love" what Love Omnipotent did to Job's family & body? Or what the Saviour of the world did in giving Paul a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to buffet him? Or giving a stubbornly sinning "brother" in the church over to Satan for destruction of the flesh? Or making women suffer in child birth?

So instead of spanking a child in tough love, you'ld consider true love to be what? Burning the child to death with torments in a lake of fire? And when that child's torments have ceased & he's finally dead & nonexistent, never bring him back again or love him again for all the endless ages of etenity? That's a long time for an all powerful Almighty Omnipotent Omniscient Being Who - IS - Love (the kind that sacrifices itself on a cross) to hate & hold a grudge against someone for the mistakes of a very brief life.

If Love Almighty doesn't save all, is it because He is lacking in power, love or wisdom? He doesn't want to, or is unable to?

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth". -Albert Einstein

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."

"I'm reminded of the movie Ben Hur. When Ben Hur encountered Jesus at the cross, he comes away and says "I felt him take the sword out of my hand." "

Love Omnipotent loves you more than you can imagine!

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

JulieB67 said:

... God gives us free will and wants our love willingly. He will not force it.

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I hear that over and over from the opposition. Is there any biblical basis for it?