If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

K Watt

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If He wants all men saved, then all would be saved. The fact that you won’t even attempt a rebuttal, but dismiss with a hand wave, is telling.

No, because God is just. A man reaps what he sows. God wants us to be righteous.

You didn't even attempt a rebuttal. The words of scripture are explicit.

Paul uses the phrase ALL MEN twice in the passage you quoted. You claim he didn't mean all men.
 
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zoidar

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Well, my hope is pretty strong. I just can't see the God who is love doing anything less than saving all, even if it take several ages to accomplish this in the most hardened of sinners.

I wish God would save all men, I just can't believe it scripturally. It can really turn our emotions upside down. What I try to do is put my worries into action, praying for people and the world. Only God knows exactly how everything will look in the end.
 
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Hammster

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Here's your rebuttal. I saw this YEARS ago, long before I became convinced of God's all saving love (Apokatastasis) and it made me go "Hmmmmmmmm......"


Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The Cross has saved all men, all mankind, all people, everywhere and at all times. God owns all souls. Through the Cross God broke into the house of the "strong man," (death) bound him, and plundered his household of his stolen goods (stolen from God). All return to God. All. Not one is left behind. Any Scripture presented by anyone which suggests that God leaves anyone behind is a mistranslation of the Bible.
One last time. This view cannot be posted in General Theology.
 
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Hammster

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No, because God is just. A man reaps what he sows. God wants us to be righteous.

You didn't even attempt a rebuttal. The words of scripture are explicit.

Paul uses the phrase ALL MEN twice in the passage you quoted. You claim he didn't mean all men.
If men reap what they sow, then we are all doomed to hell.

And what I claimed was that all men doesn’t mean every single man who has ever lived, or will live. So in your view, why are you praying for the dead?
 
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Hammster

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Even though I disagree with the poster, he quoted scripture and you told him it couldn't be discussed in GT.
His universalist view cannot be discussed.
 
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Yesha

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Being that I am soon entering into the Orthodox Church and am therefore a neophyte in many ways, I will let seasoned Orthodox answer this question:

Orthodox Christians on Penal Substitutionary Atonement - Orthodox Reformed Bridge

Orthodox Problems with Penal Substitution ·

I will also do further study on these sites I dug up in order to better understand the Orthodox position. One thing I do know - Orthodoxy rejects utterly the idea of an angry and vengeful God who needs a blood sacrifice to appease His wrath. I remember reading a "vision" given by a Roman Catholic "seer" who proclaimed that the Virgin Mary and Jesus were struggling to hold back the hand of God's wrath, but couldn't hold on much longer.

Do you see the problem with such a statement? It pits Christ/God against Father/God as if there are two conflicting wills in the Godhead, which attacks the very nature of the Trinity.

Anyway...happy studying!

Thank you for your reply and sharing those resources. :)

Perhaps it would be helpful to me if you could expand on your statement at the end of your post. What do you mean when you say, "It [penal substitution] pits Christ/God against Father/God as if there are two conflicting wills in the Godhead..."? From the second link you posted, the author writes:

1. Penal substitution compromises the deity of Christ and puts a rift in the Trinity
If Christ died for, and is our solution to, our sins against god the Father, then what about our sins against Christ? He’s just as god as the Father is. or our sins against the Holy Spirit? With penal substitution, God is pitted against God, either dividing God (and thus destroying the Trinity) or saying that Christ isn’t fully god.

Is this the basis for your referring to "conflicting wills in the Godhead" as a consequence of penal substitution? If so, I suppose I fail to understand the theological grounding for an interpretation that allows for a particular sin to be regarded as an offense against one person within the Trinity and not the others, who are coequally God and have the same Divine nature and perfect righteousness. If sin is any failure to conform to, or any actual violation of, the law of God, then all sin is an offense to the Triune God as Father, Son, and Spirit; not Father, Son, or Spirit. I do not see how, on the view of penal substitution, the Trinity is rent apart.
 
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Yesha

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The penal-substitution theory of Jesus' atonement supposes that God's wrath was satisfied at the cross as Jesus was penalized for our sins. Thus Jesus took our place and was punished for us. However, this theory does not jive with other scriptures such as Col 1:20 "...and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. Since the stated purpose of God is to RECONCILE ALL things to himself, the penal-substitution theory of atonement does not fit because under this theory, most of humanity end up being never reconciled to God and are punished in the lake of fire forever, or annihilated.

How would you interpret what immediately follows Colossians 1:20?

And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. - Colossians 1:21-23 (ESV)

In context, Paul is addressing his letter to the saints of Colossus. Toward the end of his opening statement Paul tells them that their reconciliation is conditioned upon their continuing in the faith (v23). What are we to say of those who die without faith? How can they continue in the faith, and thus be reconciled, if they never had faith to begin with?
 
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BobRyan

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Well, my hope is pretty strong. I just can't see the God who is love doing anything less than saving all, even if it take several ages to accomplish this in the most hardened of sinners.

Matthew 7
13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
...
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
 
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Gup20

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Here's your rebuttal. I saw this YEARS ago, long before I became convinced of God's all saving love (Apokatastasis) and it made me go "Hmmmmmmmm......"


Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The Cross has saved all men, all mankind, all people, everywhere and at all times. God owns all souls. Through the Cross God broke into the house of the "strong man," (death) bound him, and plundered his household of his stolen goods (stolen from God). All return to God. All. Not one is left behind. Any Scripture presented by anyone which suggests that God leaves anyone behind is a mistranslation of the Bible.
Go through Romans 5:12-21 and chart all the "likes" and "not likes." One of the things you will find is:

[Rom 5:16 NASB] 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification.​

Consider: if the ONE transgression of Adam were ever forgiven in any person, it would forgive all. There was a UNIVERSAL judgement for a single sin -- all people, the plants, the animals, the earth... everything was cursed for Adam's sin. It was a corporate, universal judgement. However, this verse clearly says the free gift arose from many transgressions... what gift?

[Rom 5:17 NASB] 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.​

So the gift is the gift of righteousness by grace. This righteousness is applied individually, not corporately or universally. This means there must be an individual judgment which replaces the corporate judgement...and that's exactly what we see in the great white throne judgement.

[Rev 20:11-13 NASB] 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds.​

So yes, the resurrection to life is universal, but then there will be a second judgement unlike the first judgement. While the first jugdgement was corporate and universal, that judgement is going to be repealed (and therefore universal resurrection from the universal judgement of death), and then individual judgments will occur... so whilst everyone will be resurrected, not everyone will be "saved."
 
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Oldmantook

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How would you interpret what immediately follows Colossians 1:20?

And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. - Colossians 1:21-23 (ESV)

In context, Paul is addressing his letter to the saints of Colossus. Toward the end of his opening statement Paul tells them that their reconciliation is conditioned upon their continuing in the faith (v23). What are we to say of those who die without faith? How can they continue in the faith, and thus be reconciled, if they never had faith to begin with?
Good question. We know that God so loved the world that he gave Jesus; whoever believes in him has eternal life per Jn 3:16. From this we can deduce that God loves all as he loves the world as the OP stated. Yet as the OP pointed out, there appear to be scriptures that say the opposite.

Starting from the point of agreement, we acknowledge that one must admit to being a sinner, repent of one's sins and believe/trust in the shed blood of Jesus as the only atoning sacrifice for sin. So you have asked the germane question of what happens to those who then die without faith? The common answer is that they are never reconciled to God as they spend eternity tormented in the lake of fire or they are annihilated. Yet these two scenarios appear to conflict with God's stated purpose of reconciliation in Col 1:21-23. Light can be shed if we take other Scripture into account:
Phil 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, as I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Isa 45:23 - I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Note that in the Isaiah scripture, God takes an oath unto himself that every knee will bow; every tongue swear/confess. When God takes an oath upon himself to make something happen, we can be utterly certain that it will happen. Thus every knee bowing and every tongue confessing will eventually happen as it is not a matter of "if" but "when." Since we acknowledge that the unsaved end up in the lake of fire it brings into question how they can remain there since all will eventually bow and confess that Jesus is Lord.
 
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Gup20

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Christ died for all -- but not all will accept the Gospel

the righteous will be in the "first resurrection" and the wicked will be raised 1000 years later in the second resurrection of Rev 20.
[Rev 20:5 NASB] 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.​

Seems reasonable to me!
 
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Oldmantook

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Matthew 7
13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
...
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
Your highlighted quote of Matt 7:14 implies that few will ever find salvation. However the word for "find" is heuriskontes which is a present tense participle more accurately translated as "finding." Thus Jesus stated that there a few presently finding salvation which is not the same as saying few will ever find it at some point in the future.
 
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Light of the East

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One last time. This view cannot be posted in General Theology.

Look at the OP. It is asking about "all being saved" vs others not being saved. I simply responded with the statements and verses that support all being saved. Seems to me you should have shuffled the very first post over to the Controversial Doctrines page.
 
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Light of the East

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Thank you for your reply and sharing those resources. :)

Perhaps it would be helpful to me if you could expand on your statement at the end of your post. What do you mean when you say, "It [penal substitution] pits Christ/God against Father/God as if there are two conflicting wills in the Godhead..."? From the second link you posted, the author writes:

1. Penal substitution compromises the deity of Christ and puts a rift in the Trinity
If Christ died for, and is our solution to, our sins against god the Father, then what about our sins against Christ? He’s just as god as the Father is. or our sins against the Holy Spirit? With penal substitution, God is pitted against God, either dividing God (and thus destroying the Trinity) or saying that Christ isn’t fully god.

Is this the basis for your referring to "conflicting wills in the Godhead" as a consequence of penal substitution? If so, I suppose I fail to understand the theological grounding for an interpretation that allows for a particular sin to be regarded as an offense against one person within the Trinity and not the others, who are coequally God and have the same Divine nature and perfect righteousness. If sin is any failure to conform to, or any actual violation of, the law of God, then all sin is an offense to the Triune God as Father, Son, and Spirit; not Father, Son, or Spirit. I do not see how, on the view of penal substitution, the Trinity is rent apart.

No, my statement about conflicting wills in the Godhead was about Roman Catholic "visionairies" posting their "visions which make no theological sense.
 
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agapelove

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Look at the OP. It is asking about "all being saved" vs others not being saved. I simply responded with the statements and verses that support all being saved. Seems to me you should have shuffled the very first post over to the Controversial Doctrines page.

Maybe he should so that we have a fighting chance.
 
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Mark Quayle

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What would be the purpose of Jesus telling them how to believe if they could not, and Jesus knew they couldn't?

I believe the Holy Spirit was working to convict those Jews of sin, but they shut their hearts, which made it impossible for them to believe. God wanted them to believe, Jesus wanted them to believe, the Holy Spirit wanted them to believe. They wouldn't.

Heb 4:7
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

It is a bit hard for me to see how cause and effect does not somehow apply to everyone. We do indeed choose, but our choices are caused by all the things impinging on our thinking and urges. If, as God has planned all along, some of us are slaves to sin, we still choose to sin, even if it includes rejecting God. If, on the other hand, God changes us, giving us new life, so that we are no longer slaves to sin, we can choose him. You can talk about cannot, but there is always the will not. So how can they if they will not?

Their hearts were already shut. As for the claim that "God wanted them to believe, Jesus wanted them to believe.", if as you say, "they shut their hearts, making it impossible for them to believe.", God can indeed convict whoever he chooses, and as God's Word always has an effect, they closed their hearts and minds to it. I want to hear a good description of how the word "want" applies to God. You seem to think it is like with us. Christ said, "not my will but yours" to the Father. His humanity "wanted" to avoid what he knew was coming, but he well knew he also WANTED to follow through with the plan, for the joy set before him. God feels many things, no doubt, but what he WANTS, he will accomplish.

You seem to want everyone to have some kind of sovereignty over even God. Do you really think God's eternal plan, in every (and any) specific detail, hinges on our stupid, weak, ignorant, self-important hearts?
 
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Mark Quayle

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What would be the purpose of Jesus telling them how to believe if they could not, and Jesus knew they couldn't?

I believe the Holy Spirit was working to convict those Jews of sin, but they shut their hearts, which made it impossible for them to believe. God wanted them to believe, Jesus wanted them to believe, the Holy Spirit wanted them to believe. They wouldn't.

Heb 4:7
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”
I forgot to mention, his purpose is given in Romans 9, spec vs 23
"What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--"
Also note, the same message he gave to those who hardened their heart is also given to those who belong to him. Those he has designated as sheep. He enables their hearts.
 
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Yesha

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No, my statement about conflicting wills in the Godhead was about Roman Catholic "visionairies" posting their "visions which make no theological sense.

I mistook the reference of your statement. My apologies! I likewise reject the view given by that Roman Catholic "seer". I see no grounding in Scripture for its validity.
 
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zoidar

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I forgot to mention, his purpose is given in Romans 9, spec vs 23
"What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--"
Also note, the same message he gave to those who hardened their heart is also given to those who belong to him. Those he has designated as sheep. He enables their hearts.

I think that sounds like a mechanical view of God. I don't think that answers the question why Jesus told the Jews how to believe.
 
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