The Olivet Discourse

DavidPT said:

What I would like to hear Preterists explain...

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Lets be honest here.
You aren't really interested in thoughtfully considering the preterist's explanation of these things at all, are you?

DavePT said:

What I would like to hear Preterists explain, how do they suppose Paul knew for a 100% fact that the day of the Lord event would come within their lifetimes? It's now 2000 years later and this same day of the Lord event in question is still yet to occur.

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In your view it's still yet to occur.

That seems to point out a flaw in the futurist's theology, not the preterist's.

The words of the prophets and Jesus *were* fulfilled on time according to the preterist beliefs.

The Jewish leaders of Jesus' time seemed to have understood the prophesies (but also seemed to believe they could maintain control over God's kingdom by crucifying Jesus). They were wrong.
Jesus was right.

DavidPT said:

What I would like to hear Preterists explain, how do they suppose Paul knew for a 100% fact that the day of the Lord event would come within their lifetimes? It's now 2000 years later and this same day of the Lord event in question is still yet to occur.

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Just to add to what Claninja and Parousia70 have already pointed out, Jesus also said this to the Pharisees living at the time (and there're still many more relevant passages):

parousia70 said:

Lets be honest here.
You aren't really interested in thoughtfully considering the preterist's explanation of these things at all, are you?

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I have already read your's and other's responses to what I wrote there. I'm still planning on trying to address some of those responses eventually. I just haven't found a way yet to convey my thoughts on those passages to where it is clear as to how I am understanding them and why. It's somewhat involved because one has to consider other Scriptures as well, which are relevant to this particular subject. It makes it difficult if some of these other Scriptures are some of the same Scriptures Preterists also see as relevant to this subject, the problem being that the way Preterists interpret some of these other Scriptures, and the way I interpret these same Scriptures, are worlds apart.

mkgal1 said:

In your view it's still yet to occur.

That seems to point out a flaw in the futurist's theology, not the preterist's.

The words of the prophets and Jesus *were* fulfilled on time according to the preterist beliefs.

Luke 21:22 - [Jesus said] For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.
​

The Jewish leaders of Jesus' time seemed to have understood the prophesies (but also seemed to believe they could maintain control over God's kingdom by crucifying Jesus). They were wrong.

John 11:48 - If we allow him to go on like this, soon everyone will believe in Him. Then the Roman army will come and destroy both our Temple and our nation.”
​

Jesus was right.

Matthew 24:2 - But He [Jesus] responded, “Do you see all these buildings? I tell you the truth, they will be completely demolished. Not one stone will be left on top of another!”​

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I'm not arguing that Jesus did not predict the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century in the Discourse. I'm basically arguing that the day of the Lord has zero to do with any of that, and that Preterists are misunderstanding what Jesus was meaning by this generation in the Discourse. He was applying that to the end of this present earth age and not to events pertaining to the first century instead.

As to the Discourse, I'm not fully Futurist concerning it since I see some events that were applicable to them in the first century, and some events being applicable to future generations, and where some events might be both applicable to them in the first century and to others in future generations as well. An example of the latter---Matthew 24:9.

DavidPT said:

I'm not arguing that Jesus did not predict the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century in the Discourse. I'm basically arguing that the day of the Lord has zero to do with any of that

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Can we park on that for a bit?....Because, in my opinion, that may be a great point of discussion instead of trying to tackle a much greater topic all at once.

You don't see the enormous impact of Jesus stating that (when the Temple was still standing and the religious leaders were hot on Jesus and His following) the entire Temple would be destroyed by each stone being thrown down and it actually happening within their lifetime just as He said? Do you not recognize the impossibility (for anyone besides God) of that statement when Jesus made it?

DavidPT said:

Preterists are misunderstanding what Jesus was meaning by this generation in the Discourse.

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Where else in the Bible is "this generation " used to mean "THAT generation"? In order to interpret a phrase a certain way, there needs to be some biblical precedence.

Cyprian (approx. AD 250)

6. That the Jews should lose Jerusalem, and should leave the land which they had received.

In Isaiah: "Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers shall devour it in your sight; and the daughter of Zion shall be left deserted, and overthrown by foreign peoples, as a cottage in a vineyard, and as a keeper's lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a city which is besieged. And unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we should have been as Sodoma, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah."[5] Also in the Gospel the Lord says: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldst not! Behold, your house shall be left unto you desolate."[6] (THREE BOOKS OF TESTIMONIES AGAINST THE JEWS., 6)


***Just to clarify - this is only against ancient Jews of the Bible.

DavidPT said:

I'm not arguing that Jesus did not predict the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century in the Discourse. I'm basically arguing that the day of the Lord has zero to do with any of that,

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I laid out specifically why and where I believe scripture proves your argument wrong about that in my post #94.
Here is a small excerpt for you to address:

There have been multiple “day of the lord” events recorded for us in scripture, yet AD 66-70 was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thess 5:2-4,23; Phil 1:6,10; Heb 10:25,36-39; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 5:5).

Those familiar with all previous "Day of the Lord" events in scripture (as Jesus and His apostles surely were) understood quite well that AD70 was a day of the Lord event, and was, unquestionably, the one that Jesus and the apostles spoke of as "soon coming, at hand, about to take place, before that generation had passed".

In all previous Day of the Lord events that were fulfilled as the Judgement of God upon Nations, using human armies as His agents, the language used is the same; Sun Darkening, Stars falling, earth splitting, mountains melting, universe collapsing, God riding a cloud, wielding His sword, destroying His enemies with His brightness, etc etc....

It is only from the later generations, removed from the genre of Jewish apocalyptic literature, that we find the false, over literalization of the language of "Universal Cataclysm" that was used time and again by the Prophets of God to describe the fall of a nation.

The best way to understand apocalyptic writing is to study the many comings of God during the Old Testament times and see how that language is used in past situations. Once we see the way the prophets spoke of God's comings down during the Old Testament times, we are better equipped to think about how God comes all throughout history and even at the end of time.

Can you Explain to us why this understanding of the nature of the Multiple PAST "Day of the Lord" Events found in the OT must be rejected and can not be correctly applied to the events of 66-70AD?

If scripture calls the OT Destruction of Babylon at the hand of the the Medes "The day of the Lord", why shouldn't we likewise affirm that scripture also calls the Destruction of the Jerusalem by the Romans "The day of the Lord"?

Whats the difference?

DavidPT said:

He was applying that to the end of this present earth age and not to events pertaining to the first century instead.

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Your position on applying "this generation" to the end of the physical world, and not the old covenant age, contradicts the following:


Paul, 2,000 years ago, was inspired to write that they were living at the fulfillment of the ages

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.


Peter, 2,000 years ago, was inspired to write that the end of all things was at hand.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray

John, 2,000 years ago, was inspired to write that it was the last hour.

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared.

James, 2000 years ago, was inspired to write the coming of Jesus was at hand.

James 5:8 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is at hand.

Why did the inspired writers of the NT state they were living in the fulfillment of the ages, that the end was at hand, that the coming of the Lord was at hand, and that it was the last hour if "this generation" was to refer to the end of the physical world some 2000+ years later?

claninja said:

Your position on applying "this generation" to the end of the physical world, and not the old covenant age, contradicts the following:


Paul, 2,000 years ago, was inspired to write that they were living at the fulfillment of the ages

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.


Peter, 2,000 years ago, was inspired to write that the end of all things was at hand.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray

John, 2,000 years ago, was inspired to write that it was the last hour.

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared.

James, 2000 years ago, was inspired to write the coming of Jesus was at hand.

James 5:8 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is at hand.

Why did the inspired writers of the NT state they were living in the fulfillment of the ages, that the end was at hand, that the coming of the Lord was at hand, and that it was the last hour if "this generation" was to refer to the end of the physical world some 2000+ years later?

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Because "the lasts days" has been ongoing since the First Advent and will continue until the Second Advent - "the last day" (singular) of "the "last days (plural).

sovereigngrace said:

- "the last day" (singular) of "the "last days (plural).

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Is not the "last Hour" of the Last Days singular as well?

parousia70 said:

I laid out specifically why and where I believe scripture proves your argument wrong about that in my post #94.
Here is a small excerpt for you to address:

There have been multiple “day of the lord” events recorded for us in scripture, yet AD 66-70 was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thess 5:2-4,23; Phil 1:6,10; Heb 10:25,36-39; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 5:5).

Those familiar with all previous "Day of the Lord" events in scripture (as Jesus and His apostles surely were) understood quite well that AD70 was a day of the Lord event, and was, unquestionably, the one that Jesus and the apostles spoke of as "soon coming, at hand, about to take place, before that generation had passed".

In all previous Day of the Lord events that were fulfilled as the Judgement of God upon Nations, using human armies as His agents, the language used is the same; Sun Darkening, Stars falling, earth splitting, mountains melting, universe collapsing, God riding a cloud, wielding His sword, destroying His enemies with His brightness, etc etc....

It is only from the later generations, removed from the genre of Jewish apocalyptic literature, that we find the false, over literalization of the language of "Universal Cataclysm" that was used time and again by the Prophets of God to describe the fall of a nation.

The best way to understand apocalyptic writing is to study the many comings of God during the Old Testament times and see how that language is used in past situations. Once we see the way the prophets spoke of God's comings down during the Old Testament times, we are better equipped to think about how God comes all throughout history and even at the end of time.

Can you Explain to us why this understanding of the nature of the Multiple PAST "Day of the Lord" Events found in the OT must be rejected and can not be correctly applied to the events of 66-70AD?

If scripture calls the OT Destruction of Babylon at the hand of the the Medes "The day of the Lord", why shouldn't we likewise affirm that scripture also calls the Destruction of the Jerusalem by the Romans "The day of the Lord"?

Whats the difference?

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Hello, the day of the Lord spoken about in the New Testaments by the apostles begins when the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed....2Thessalonians 2:3...Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (“Day of the Lord”) will Not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed...

So up to that time the man of lawlessness has Not revealed yet..that is future...

parousia70 said:

Is not the "last Hour" of the Last Days singular as well?

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Hour can refer to an exact or a period of time. In the above case, it refers to the intra-Advent period. The event/phrase "last day" refers to the future coming of the Lord, the general physical future resurrection and literal future general judgment, realities that only heretics would deny.

pasifika said:

Hello, the day of the Lord spoken about in the New Testaments by the apostles begins when the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed....2Thessalonians 2:3...Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (“Day of the Lord”) will Not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed...

So up to that time the man of lawlessness has Not revealed yet..that is future...

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Paul wrote these words to the Thessalonians:

mkgal1 said:

Cyprian (approx. AD 250)

6. That the Jews should lose Jerusalem, and should leave the land which they had received.

In Isaiah: "Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers shall devour it in your sight; and the daughter of Zion shall be left deserted, and overthrown by foreign peoples, as a cottage in a vineyard, and as a keeper's lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a city which is besieged. And unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we should have been as Sodoma, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah."[5] Also in the Gospel the Lord says: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldst not! Behold, your house shall be left unto you desolate."[6] (THREE BOOKS OF TESTIMONIES AGAINST THE JEWS., 6)


***Just to clarify - this is only against ancient Jews of the Bible.

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That does not prove that Cyprian believed that the day of the Lord occurred in AD70. He didn't! None of the early church fathers did (that i have studied)! That is a recent invention in the Full Preterist camp. Sadly, more and more Partial Preterists are buying into that lie.

The problem is: Preterists and Futurists go back and forth making legitimate points on key areas, for both are correct on some things, and wrong in others. Most Amils accept that Daniel 9 is historic, and the great tribulation relates to AD70, yet believe in the future day of the Lord, the climactic return if Christ, the future resurrection/judgment of the living and the dead.

An Address to Demetrianus (Chapter 22):

… the day of judgment is still future which the Holy Scripture denounces, saying, “Howl ye, for the day of the Lord is at hand, and destruction from God shall come; for, lo, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel with wrath and anger, to lay the earth desolate, and to destroy the sinners out of it.” And again: “Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, burning as an oven; and all the aliens and all that do wickedly shall be as stubble, and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord.” The Lord prophesies that the aliens shall be burnt up and consumed; that is, aliens from the divine race, and the profane, those who are not spiritually new-born, nor made children of God. For that those only can escape who have been new-born and signed with the sign of Christ, God says in another place, when, sending forth His angels to the destruction of the world and the death of the human race, He threatens more terribly in the last time, saying, “Go ye, and smite, and let not your eye spare. Have no pity upon old or young, and slay the virgins and the little ones and the women, that they may be utterly destroyed. But touch not any man upon whom is written the mark.” Moreover, what this mark is, and in what part of the body it is placed, God sets forth in another place, saying, “Go through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.” And that the sign pertains to the passion and blood of Christ, and that whoever is found in this sign is kept safe and unharmed, is also proved by God’s testimony, saying, “And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses in which ye shall be; and I will see the blood, and will protect you, and the plague of diminution shall not be upon you when I smite the land of Egypt.” What previously preceded by a figure in the slain lamb is fulfilled in Christ, the truth which followed afterwards. As, then, when Egypt was smitten, the Jewish people could not escape except by the blood and the sign of the lamb; so also, when the world shall begin to be desolated and smitten, whoever is found in the blood and the sign of Christ alone shall escape.

Cyprian didn’t anticipate anyone other than those that are born again surviving the Coming of the Lord. This is the day when all will be judged. The Scriptures he employs strongly reinforce his belief. There is no room for survivors here for Cyprian. We should note again: “The Lord prophesies that the aliens shall be burnt up and consumed; that is, aliens from the divine race, and the profane, those who are not spiritually new-born, nor made children of God. For that those only can escape who have been new-born and signed with the sign of Christ.”

There is no provision for filling the new earth with rebels as Premil does: “when the world shall begin to be desolated and smitten, whoever is found in the blood and the sign of Christ alone shall escape.”

The “day of judgment” is identified with the rapidly looming “day of the Lord” – which is said by the writer to be “at hand.” Cyprian views the Coming of the Lord as Amils to be an impending event that occurs at the end of the world (this age).

mkgal1 said:

Paul wrote these words to the Thessalonians:

2 Thessalonians 2:5-7 ~ Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.​

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Exactly! He has been working for thousands of years. He is still working, until he is destroyed with the brightness of Christ's coming.

parousia70 said:

I'll be blunt too.
None of what you said even comes close to addressing my question.

You say Paul warned US about it.... yet the text is clear, Paul is warning the first century THESSALONIANS about it.

So the question remains.
Why would God, via the Holy Spirit, inspire Paul to Admonish his FIRST CENTURY AUDIENCE, of Living, breathing Christians to "Watch and be Ready" for an event He knew wouldn't take place for 2000 Years?

Why would God not Inspire Paul to tell the truth to the Thessalonians about the timing? And say something truthful to them like:

"Brethren, the people who read this letter in 2000 years should remain sober and watch and be ready for the Day of the Lord that will come upon them as a thief in the night, However You Brethren today will not see this event in your lifetime, so you have no need to watch and be ready for it".

Why didn't Holy Spirit inspire Paul to be truthful with The Thessalonians about the timing, instead of purposely inspiring Paul to lead them into a false belief that it would happen in their lifetimes, by telling them they NEEDED TO "watch and be ready" for it?

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Dream on... stay spiritually drunken if that's what you want.

mkgal1 said:

Paul wrote these words to the Thessalonians:

2 Thessalonians 2:5-7 ~ Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.​

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Yes, the verse you quoted state that the man of lawlessness will be revealed at the “proper time” so that time is when the rebellion occurs before He is revealed ...but the spirit of lawlessness has already at work in our world especially in the unbelievers...

mkgal1 said:

Paul wrote these words to the Thessalonians:

2 Thessalonians 2:5-7 ~ Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.​

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The end of Daniel 10 gave us a hint who is restraining the "man of sin". It's not The Holy Spirit. It's the Archangel Michael.

Dan 10:21
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
KJV

The time when the "man of sin" is loosed, and the Archangel Michael makes a 'stand'...

Dan 12:1
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
KJV

And this is what that 'stand' is about...

Rev 12:7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV