If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

Oldmantook

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The Bible gives no numbers.

My understanding is that mankind is reconciled, forgiven, but if forgiveness isn't received through the faith and Holy Spirit, we still stand accused.
All means all. The totality of humankind. No one knows the actual number but all means EVERYONE will be eventually reconciled to God, through faith. It is not a matter of if, but when that happens as whatever God desires, He accomplishes.
 
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Hammster

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All means all. The totality of humankind. No one knows the actual number but all means EVERYONE will be eventually reconciled to God, through faith. It is not a matter of if, but when that happens as whatever God desires, He accomplishes.
Sounds an awful lot like universalism.
 
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Deade

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He is willing to punish sin because He loves His glory. He is willing to be just because He is just.

Your argument falls flat.

So, God has prophesied that most are lost (the wide path) and also deceived (see Rev. 12:9). That He has chosen only a few and all the rest are already condemned (see John 3:18). It seems God is losing the war to save souls. Or, wait! Maybe He isn't doing that at all. Most will have their chance in the GWTJ after the millennium. I believe some will still chose evil because they love it. God will not allow evildoers to continue forever. When all is said and done, we will see God's righteous judgment and agree. :rolleyes:
 
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Oldmantook

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Sounds an awful lot like universalism.
More specifically the doctrine of apokatastasis/apocatastasis. Eternal torment in hell/LOF was not popularized until Augustine came along. That is why the OP posted his question as there appears to be a contradiction.
 
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Hammster

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More specifically the doctrine of apokatastasis/apocatastasis. Eternal torment in hell/LOF was not popularized until Augustine came along. That is why the OP posted his question as there appears to be a contradiction.
It’s not orthodox and not allowed in General Theology.
 
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K Watt

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Those truths aren’t really true since you taken verses out of context.

Please explain.

Here are the actual verses:

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Titus 2:11-14 NKJV. For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

1 Tim 2
3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
 
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Hammster

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1 Tim 2
3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
I’m not going to do all in one post. But I’ll start with this. Let’s look at context.


First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
— 1 Timothy 2:1-6

The context shows that we should not just pray for regular folks, but also kings. So the “all men” can’t mean every single person because you can’t pray for those who have already died. You can pray, however, for all types of men (kings and regular folks). And that fits with the definition of “all”.

Plus, there’s one God and mediator. And He’s a mediator between the Father and those who are saved.
 
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zoidar

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We are not accused. Stop thinking like a Roman barrister. We are sick and need healing. The whole purpose of the Cross was to defeat death, not to fulfill some bizarre idea of Roman (and pagan) angry God justice so that God doesn't destroy the universe in His rage.

I find it odd that even people who speak of the impassibility of God ** will also speak of His rage. One cannot be impassible and have rage at the same time. Impossible.


** Impassibility
Impassibility (from Latin in-, "not", passibilis, "able to suffer, experience emotion") describes the theological doctrine that God does not experience pain or pleasure from the actions of another being. It has often been seen as a consequence of divine aseity, the idea that God is absolutely independent of any other being, i.e., in no way causally dependent. Being affected (literally made to have a certain emotion, affect) by the state or actions of another would seem to imply causal dependence

Thanks for sharing your view! Maybe there are better words to use than accused. The point was that we are under the weight of death unless we are set free by Spirit and faith.
 
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K Watt

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I’m not going to do all in one post. But I’ll start with this. Let’s look at context.


First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
— 1 Timothy 2:1-6

The context shows that we should not just pray for regular folks, but also kings. So the “all men” can’t mean every single person because you can’t pray for those who have already died. You can pray, however, for all types of men (kings and regular folks). And that fits with the definition of “all”.

Plus, there’s one God and mediator. And He’s a mediator between the Father and those who are saved.


That's not really even a good try. Clearly God wants all men to be saved.

You didn't even fool yourself. Why twist scripture so?
 
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Light of the East

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Thanks for sharing your view! Maybe there are better words to use than accused. The point was that we are under the weight of death unless we are set free by Spirit and faith.

That's more like the Orthodox position. Death has afflicted creation. Not just humanity, but all creation. Christ's death defeated death. The idea of an eternal hell (a state of death that lasts forever) goes against this understanding of Christ's complete victory.
 
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zoidar

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That's more like the Orthodox position. Death has afflicted creation. Not just humanity, but all creation. Christ's death defeated death. The idea of an eternal hell (a state of death that lasts forever) goes against this understanding of Christ's complete victory.

Is your position that all men will eventually be saved?
 
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Hammster

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That's not really even a good try. Clearly God wants all men to be saved.

You didn't even fool yourself. Why twist scripture so?
If He wants all men saved, then all would be saved. The fact that you won’t even attempt a rebuttal, but dismiss with a hand wave, is telling.
 
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Gup20

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Some believe that Christ’s sacrifice and redemption was limited, or only for those with faith. It is said that Christ only died for those who would have faith in Him. But allow me to offer another model. I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection. In other words, because of Christ, all humans will be resurrected, but not all will enter the kingdom of heaven. That is only for those who believe the gospel and obtain the righteousness of Christ through the inheritance by kinship with Abraham.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt
.


So Christ’s work resurrects each and every human being from Adam’s corporate judgment, but then they are judged as individuals (by Christ). Those who do not have Christ’s righteousness by faith in the gospel then have a second death and are thrown into the lake of fire.

Additionally, try to make sense of this apparent contradiction without this knowledge on resurrection:

Numbers 14:18
The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.

Ezekiel 18:20
The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

This seems at first to be contradiction, but then you realize that Ezekiel is future prophecy. Numbers describes the law, and what now is. Because of Christ, that original judgment of death will be repealed in lieu of individual judgments. Then, as John 5:28 says, there will be a resurrection of all – the good to a resurrection of life, and the evil to a resurrection of a second judgment and a second death.

Unlike Adam’s corporate, universal judgment, we will one day have individual judgments. That is what the Great White Throne judgement is; it is an individual judgement. It is the individual judgement for which Christ’s sacrifice covers our sins. The corporate judgement of Adam is repealed because once a single righteous person existed in the world (Christ) a corporate judgement was no longer just or sufficient. Therefore the corporate judgment must be repealed in lieu of individual judgments.

Revelation 20:11
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds.

That means that each and every person will be resurrected (including aborted babies) as the first death is eliminated. Then all face the individual judgement and some will experience the second death.

So in one way, Christ's work DOES apply to all. In another way, Christ's righteousness only applies to those with faith in Him.
 
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Hammster

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That's more like the Orthodox position. Death has afflicted creation. Not just humanity, but all creation. Christ's death defeated death. The idea of an eternal hell (a state of death that lasts forever) goes against this understanding of Christ's complete victory.
This is actually an unorthodox position, and cannot be promoted in General Theology.
 
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BobRyan

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Some believe that Christ’s sacrifice and redemption was limited, or only for those with faith. It is said that Christ only died for those who would have faith in Him. But allow me to offer another model. I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection. In other words, because of Christ, all humans will be resurrected, but not all will enter the kingdom of heaven. That is only for those who believe the gospel and obtain the righteousness of Christ through the inheritance by kinship with Abraham. .

Christ died for all -- but not all will accept the Gospel

the righteous will be in the "first resurrection" and the wicked will be raised 1000 years later in the second resurrection of Rev 20.
 
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Light of the East

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If He wants all men saved, then all would be saved. The fact that you won’t even attempt a rebuttal, but dismiss with a hand wave, is telling.

Here's your rebuttal. I saw this YEARS ago, long before I became convinced of God's all saving love (Apokatastasis) and it made me go "Hmmmmmmmm......"


Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The Cross has saved all men, all mankind, all people, everywhere and at all times. God owns all souls. Through the Cross God broke into the house of the "strong man," (death) bound him, and plundered his household of his stolen goods (stolen from God). All return to God. All. Not one is left behind. Any Scripture presented by anyone which suggests that God leaves anyone behind is a mistranslation of the Bible.
 
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Light of the East

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Is your position that all men will eventually be saved?

I have that hope in me, that God, who is love, will accomplish the redemption of all.
 
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Light of the East

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This is actually an unorthodox position, and cannot be promoted in General Theology.

The position of the Orthodox Church is that all are brought to be with God - the wicked and those who have repented. The repentant will find it to be joy and bliss, while the presence of God will be torment to those who love sin.

The only question up in the air is whether or not those who are wicked and die as such will be able to repent in the next age. Universalists say yes, and that the hell of torment of Christ's presence will bring the wicked to see their sins in truth and repent, accepting the punishment for their sins with the telos of being fulfilled in Christ forever. Most others say that repentance after death is impossible. They do not, however, have any Scripture or personal experience which would give foundation to their belief.
 
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zoidar

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I have that hope in me, that God, who is love, will accomplish the redemption of all.

I don't think hoping is wrong, but I think it would be destructive to theologically hold to it, if you know what I mean.
 
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I don't think hoping is wrong, but I think it would be destructive to theologically hold to it, if you know what I mean.

Well, my hope is pretty strong. I just can't see the God who is love doing anything less than saving all, even if it take several ages to accomplish this in the most hardened of sinners.
 
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