Who Goes To Hell?

Der Alte · May 13, 2020

ClementofA said:
...

ClementofA said:
What are your qualifications. Where are they listed? How is this relevant?

I do not present myself as an authority on Hebrew or Greek although I have studied both at the graduate level. Nor do I write books making unsupported definitive statements about Biblical languages.

Even if he was the Pope of Greek scholars, it would make no difference to those following their pastor's teaching on endless sufferings for teens who died without ever hearing the gospel.

If teens are hearing pastors teaching the Biblical doctrine of "eternal punishment" how can they die without hearing the gospel? Do you not believe in UR that everyone will be saved no matter what?

Moreover scholars disagree with scholars, so does it matter if he doesn't have any qualifications? Can people not compare what the scholars on opposing sides have said & prayerfully reach their own conclusions with the Lord as their Teacher?

A specious argument I have never seen any legitimate significant disagreement between legitimate Greek/Hebrew scholars. What I have seen are people like J. Preston Eby, Gerry Beauchemin et al., who have no stated qualifications in Biblical languages, arguing without any credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence that "Aion never means eternity and aionios never means eternal."
Maybe some folks would but I would never take medical, legal, accounting etc. advice from someone without any qualifications in the field.

FineLinen · May 13, 2020

BlessedCreator said:
You're wrong sorry.
The parable of the sheep and goats starts at verse 25 in Matthew chapter 25.

The entire parable begins in verse 1 and extends thru the unwise investors, the pure virgins and on to the clean animals of the Lord.

The foundation for everlasting punishment =

I was hungry and you gave Me no meat.
I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink:
I was a stranger and you took Me not in.
I was naked and you did not clothe Me.
I was in prison and you did not visit Me.

Upon this foundation rests the doctrine of “everlasting punishment”, the cornerstone text for the same.

FineLinen · May 13, 2020

FineLinen said:
The entire parable begins in verse 1 and extends thru the unwise investors, the pure virgins and on to the clean animals of the Lord.

The foundation for everlasting punishment =

I was hungry and you gave Me no meat.

I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink:

I was a stranger and you took Me not in.

I was naked and you did not clothe Me.

I was in prison and you did not visit Me.

Upon this foundation rests the doctrine of “everlasting punishment”, the cornerstone text for the same.

Please welcome Jonathan Mitchell, koine scholar of the
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. Translation.

ON the SHEEP and the GOATS By Jonathan Mitchell

ClementofA · May 13, 2020

Der Alte said:
I do not present myself as an authority on Hebrew or Greek although I have studied both at the graduate level.

I don't believe everything people on posting forums say about themselves. Where have you posted your qualifications listed by a reliable source? Yet you post your pet aion/ios/olam theories as irrefutable facts when you can't support them with a single source in the past 10,000 years, whether by scholars or amateurs such as yourself. And they have been repeatedly refuted by several different members here.

Der Alte said:
Nor do I write books making unsupported definitive statements about Biblical languages.

See my previous remark above. No support whatsoever from anyone.

Der Alte said:
If teens are hearing pastors teaching the Biblical doctrine of "eternal punishment" how can they die without hearing the gospel?

My comment was speaking of teens who died never having heard the gospel. And pastors who say they will burn in hell's torments forever.

Der Alte said:
A specious argument I have never seen any legitimate significant disagreement between legitimate Greek/Hebrew scholars.

You should study the works of the Early Church Father universalists re aion/ios & other scholars on the same subject up to this day today. Much disagreement there.

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Der Alte said:
What I have seen are people like J. Preston Eby, Gerry Beauchemin et al., who have no stated qualifications in Biblical languages, arguing without any credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence that "Aion never means eternity and aionios never means eternal."

Can you quote Gerry Beauchemin saying anything like that? Here's one of his UR books:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Saint Steven · May 13, 2020

ClementofA said:
I don't believe everything people on posting forums say about themselves. Where have you posted your qualifications listed by a reliable source?

Now we're talkin'...

IntriKate · May 13, 2020

You need a relationship with God to be able to go to heaven.

Der Alte · May 13, 2020

FineLinen said:
Please welcome Jonathan Mitchell, koine scholar of the
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. Translation.
ON the SHEEP and the GOATS By Jonathan Mitchell

Here is the author's Bio. A MA in Anthropology does not make a person an expert in Greek.

Jonathan Mitchell's Biography.
Jonathan Mitchell was baptized as a young boy in the waters near Yosemite National Park by his father, a Baptist minister. He grew up under his parent’s pastoral influence and was introduced to the ”high call”of Apostle Paul. He was 18 when his father died. He began to question God’s plan for his life.
Turning in a 4-year scholarship, he dropped out of school to study the Bible from cover to cover. During this time he became acquainted with the writings of Bill Britton, George Hawtin, Ray Prinzing and Preston Eby God’s word became a passion! Returning to college, he studied N.T. Greek, archaeology, linguistics and world religions. He finished his formal education in 1975 with an MA in Anthropology.Currently, Jonathan enjoys translating and teaching Bible studies, even with full-time employment. He and his wife, Lynda, live in Arizona, USA. They have 3 grown children, 1 teen-ager and 2 beautiful grandsons.

Der Alte · May 13, 2020

ClementofA said:
...

<ClemetofA>I don't believe everything people on posting forums say about themselves. Where have you posted your qualifications listed by a reliable source? Nowhere. Yet you post your pet aion/ios/olam theories as irrefutable facts when you can't support them with a single source in the past 10,000 years, whether by scholars or amateurs such as yourself. And they have been repeatedly refuted by several different members here.,<ClementofA>

Again I do not present myself as an expert so there is no need for me to document my education. How my education serves me here is knowing when people who know virtually nothing about Greek or Hebrew try to make grammatical arguments when they couldn't parse a Greek verb or locate a Hebrew verb if their life depended on it.
My arguments about aion, aionios and olam have never been refuted. Someone simply saying that aionios referred to something which is obviously not eternal does prove it never means eternal.
We both know that there are many figures of speech in the Bible. E.W. Bullinger identified more than 200 "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible" in his book by that name. Available online at Internet archive.
I presented evidence from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Lexicon of New Testament Greek which supports my conclusions that aionios means eternal. An older edition available online.
I also quoted from the Eastern Greek Orthodox New Testament which agrees with my conclusions that aionios means eternal. Also available online.
For those who believe the UR slander at various UR sites that Greek was supposedly a dead language for 1400 years I suggest your read the Encyclopedia Britannica article.
You might notice I do not quote unknowns.

BlessedCreator · May 13, 2020

FineLinen said:
The entire parable begins in verse 1 and extends thru the unwise investors, the pure virgins and on to the clean animals of the Lord.

The foundation for everlasting punishment =

I was hungry and you gave Me no meat.

I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink:

I was a stranger and you took Me not in.

I was naked and you did not clothe Me.

I was in prison and you did not visit Me.

Upon this foundation rests the doctrine of “everlasting punishment”, the cornerstone text for the same.

You conveniently left out the part of my post that proved the goats are referring to the wicked/damned.

FineLinen · May 13, 2020

BlessedCreator said:
You conveniently left out the part of my post that proved the goats are referring to the wicked/damned.

When you can point me to one single word in all koine Canon that has the word "damned" I will inconveniently include it.

Search "damned"

Your search query has yielded no results. Please modify your query & try again.

ClementofA · May 13, 2020

Der Alte said:
My arguments about aion, aionios and olam have never been refuted.

What would it take to refute your following argument below?

Here is the argument of yours i was referring to, which you've also applied to the Hebrew terms OLAM and AD, correct?:

Der Alte said:
And many of the uses of "aionios" is hyperbole/metaphor as I said. I have proved that the inherent meaning of "aionios" is "eternal" and "aion" is "eternity" any other use is hyperbole or other figure of speech.

Exactly how did you "prove" that theory of yours to be true? Can you reference a post # & thread of yours that you allege to have accomplished that?

You've never quoted a single source that agrees with your theory. I've asked you repeatedly to quote someone in the past thousands of years who agrees with you, but you never cited a single source, whether a scholar or even an amateur.

I've read dozens of Koine Greek lexicons re aion and aionion, plus many other sources, and never seen one that agrees with your theory. I don't recall ever seeing any saying they have just one "inherent meaning". Neither BDAG or Bullinger express support for your theory. AFAIK no one in the past 2000 years agrees with it.

Der Alte said:
Just because either word simply refers to something which could not be eternal that does NOT define the word as I have done with 24 occurrences of aion/aionios.

How would looking at a mere 24 occurrences of these words, which number many times more than that in the New Testament alone, be enough to determine the "intrinsic meaning" of a word? What about the many hundreds of more occurrences in the LXX & other sources?

What would cause you to consider the use of aion at Mt.24:3 as hyperbole or a figure of speech? Can you name a single source since 30 AD who supports that claim? Why not instead follow your own advice:

"There is an old maxim for Bible translation, “If the plain senses makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense.” "

Evidently you don't apply that to passages such as Mt.24:3. Instead you do what you allege others do when you say:

"lots of folks when scripture as written contradicts their assumptions/presuppositions, no problem, they just blow them off as SPAM-fig. Symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative, anything but literal."

In your case "hyperbole or other figure of speech":

Der Alte said:
And many of the uses of "aionios" is hyperbole/metaphor as I said. I have proved that the inherent meaning of "aionios" is "eternal" and "aion" is "eternity" any other use is hyperbole or other figure of speech.

BlessedCreator · May 13, 2020

FineLinen said:
When you can point me to one single word in all koine Canon that has the word "damned" I will inconveniently include it.

Search "damned"

Your search query has yielded no results. Please modify your query & try again.

What does it matter? You know what I am talking about, those that will not be saved but will have their dwelling place in the "lake of fire".

Der Alte · May 13, 2020

ClementofA said:
...

<ClementofA>I've read dozens of Koine Greek lexicons re aion and aionion, plus many other sources, and never seen one that agrees with your theory. I don't recall ever seeing any saying they have just one "inherent meaning". Neither BDAG or Bullinger express support for your theory. AFAIK no one in the past 2000 years agrees with it....<ClementofA>

Merriam-Webster Dictionary online.
Inherent-: involved in the constitution or essential character of something : belonging by nature or habit: intrinsic risks inherent in the venture

Something including a word cannot have more than one inherent meaning. The rest I might get back to tomorrow.
Remember my example of the word "kosmos" the inherent meaning is "world." But it is used several times to refer to something less than the entire planet earth. Those usages do not change the inherent meaning of "kosmos."

FineLinen · May 13, 2020

BlessedCreator said:
What does it matter? You know what I am talking about, those that will not be saved but will have their dwelling place in the "lake of fire".

Yes, unfortunately I know the scope of your blind understanding of the Holy.

I also know the scope of ta pavnte.

He is the Source, Guide & Goal of the all.

ClementofA · May 14, 2020

Der Alte said:
<ClementofA>I've read dozens of Koine Greek lexicons re aion and aionion, plus many other sources, and never seen one that agrees with your theory. I don't recall ever seeing any saying they have just one "inherent meaning". Neither BDAG or Bullinger express support for your theory. AFAIK no one in the past 2000 years agrees with it....<ClementofA>

Merriam-Webster Dictionary online.
Inherent-: involved in the constitution or essential character of something : belonging by nature or habit: intrinsic risks inherent in the venture
Something including a word cannot have more than one inherent meaning. The rest I might get back to tomorrow.
Remember my example of the word "kosmos" the inherent meaning is "world." But it is used several times to refer to something less than the entire planet earth. Those usages do not change the inherent meaning of "kosmos."

Kosmos is not aion, aionios,olam or ad.

Even for kosmos BDAG says nothing about any "inherent meaning" let alone that the word is confined to one & only one inherent meaning. In fact, BDAG lists at least 8 different meanings for the word:

Перевод κόσμος с греческого на все языки

and at least 4 different meanings for aion:

Перевод αἰών с греческого на все языки

and at least 3 different meanings for aionios:

Перевод αἰώνιος с греческого на все языки

BDB lists at least two different meanings for olam:

Strong's Hebrew: 5769. עוֹלָם (olam) -- long duration, antiquity, futurity

and multiple meanings for ad:

Strong's Hebrew: 5703. עַד (ad) -- perpetuity

Saint Steven · May 14, 2020

BlessedCreator said:
What does it matter? You know what I am talking about, those that will not be saved but will have their dwelling place in the "lake of fire".

Don't you believe that every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord? And that will happen in heaven and on earth and under the earth? (in the realm of the dead) Don't you know that means salvation for all? And this is the very reason Christ died and returned to life? How did you not know this? (no one told you until now)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Shrewd Manager · May 14, 2020

Der Alte said:
I do not present myself as an authority on Hebrew or Greek

Seem to know your German though.

Der Alte · May 14, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Seem to know your German though.

I learned to speak German when I was 12 and later on was stationed in Germany for 5.5 years . While I was in Germany, the year of Sputnik1, I started learning to speak Greek supervising Greek laborers, who spoke very little German or English.

Shrewd Manager · May 14, 2020

Der Alte said:
I learned to speak German when I was 12 and later on was stationed in Germany for 5.5 years . While I was in Germany, the year of Sputnik1, I started learning to speak Greek supervising Greek laborers, who spoke very little German or English.

They sent Germany to hell in the years after WWII. Read Hellstorm:

Der Alte · May 14, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Don't you believe that every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord? And that will happen in heaven and on earth and under the earth? (in the realm of the dead) Don't you know that means salvation for all? And this is the very reason Christ died and returned to life? How did you not know this? (no one told you until now)
...
Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Wrong! Scripture does NOT say that all will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
Exomolgeo occurs eleven times in the NT, in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back).”

Matthew 3:6 “confessing their sins,” Matthew 11:25 “thank,” Mark 1:5 “confessing their sins,” Luke 10:21 “thank,” Luke 22:6 “promised,” Acts of the apostles 19:18 “confessed their deeds,” Romans 14:11 “confess,” Romans 15:9 “confess Christ,” James 5:16 “confess your faults,” Revelation 3:5 “confess his name”

It never means whole-heartedly etc.
…..Scripture says that every knee will bow but only believers will do so willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies.
How will the enemies of Jesus feel?

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, * Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
* "That day" -the day of judgement.

The word of God says every knee will bow. It must be important because it is repeated six times.

1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
4. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

But the "fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, liars" etc. who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord. This is another important point it is recorded nine times in scripture.

1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts of the apostles 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
6. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;. Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua shows us in Josh. 10.

Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah.
Joshua 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Joshua 10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
Joshua 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.

Who Goes To Hell?

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Salvation=Obedience

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Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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