If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

Light of the East · May 13, 2020

Hammster said:
It’s as outdated as the Word of God.

Your erroneous Western INTERPRETATION of the Word of God, just like that of Roman Catholicism, is not the Word of God.

If Jesus said "This IS my Body" and you turn around and say "It is only a symbol," are you really giving out the word that Jesus said?

Hammster · May 13, 2020

Light of the East said:
Do you know what the word "IS" means?

Yes. But if I use it in the wooden literal way you seem that I should, then that’s all He is. Which means He’s not the creator, redeemer, Shepherd, etc.

Hammster · May 13, 2020

Light of the East said:
Your erroneous Western INTERPRETATION of the Word of God, just like that of Roman Catholicism, is not the Word of God.

If Jesus said "This IS my Body" and you turn around and say "It is only a symbol," are you really giving out the word that Jesus said?

Yes I am. You don’t believe He’s actually a door, do you? Or a vine?

Yesha · May 13, 2020

Light of the East said:
And that is the wrong answer also. The work of Christ upon the Cross had nothing to do with some sense of penal justice and satiating God's wrath.

What do you believe Paul means when he speaks of propitiation in Romans 3:25?

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. - Romans 3:21-26 (ESV)

Light of the East · May 13, 2020

Hammster said:
Yes I am. You don’t believe He’s actually a door, do you? Or a vine?

If you would actually READ that Bible you love so much with CARE you would find that when Jesus identified as a door, the chapter gives indication that he was speaking in analogy. No such information is given about John 6 or the Last Supper.

Hammster · May 13, 2020

Light of the East said:
If you would actually READ that Bible you love so much with CARE you would find that when Jesus identified as a door, the chapter gives indication that he was speaking in analogy. No such information is given about John 6 or the Last Supper.

Okay. You just keep with that.

pasifika · May 13, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Question. How does that work? If Christ died for all only to save the sheep of God what is the point of him dying and suffering for the worlds sins? Put another way why did God die for the sins of those not written? What is the point in God suffering extra if only his sheep will be saved?

Hello, I think there is No distinguish of sins among all people...if we commit one sin and Not the other doesn't mean we judge differently then others...Sin is sin whether small or big according to how we look at it But according to God is just Sin and only one penalty which is death...
Jesus Christ death covered all sins...the thing that separate His people from the rest is they accepted the sacrifice for sins through His blood...
So Jesus Christ didn't suffer extra for the sins of those people who don't belong to Him because the suffering and death He endured is for payment of Sin in it entirety.. or payment of sin in fullness....So whosoever turns to Him their sins will be forgiven...

Light of the East · May 13, 2020

Yesha said:
What do you believe Paul means when he speaks of propitiation in Romans 3:25?

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. - Romans 3:21-26 (ESV)

Being that I am soon entering into the Orthodox Church and am therefore a neophyte in many ways, I will let seasoned Orthodox answer this question:

Orthodox Christians on Penal Substitutionary Atonement - Orthodox Reformed Bridge

Orthodox Problems with Penal Substitution ·

I will also do further study on these sites I dug up in order to better understand the Orthodox position. One thing I do know - Orthodoxy rejects utterly the idea of an angry and vengeful God who needs a blood sacrifice to appease His wrath. I remember reading a "vision" given by a Roman Catholic "seer" who proclaimed that the Virgin Mary and Jesus were struggling to hold back the hand of God's wrath, but couldn't hold on much longer.

Do you see the problem with such a statement? It pits Christ/God against Father/God as if there are two conflicting wills in the Godhead, which attacks the very nature of the Trinity.

Anyway...happy studying!

Oldmantook · May 13, 2020

Yesha said:
What do you believe Paul means when he speaks of propitiation in Romans 3:25?

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. - Romans 3:21-26 (ESV)

The penal-substitution theory of Jesus' atonement supposes that God's wrath was satisfied at the cross as Jesus was penalized for our sins. Thus Jesus took our place and was punished for us. However, this theory does not jive with other scriptures such as Col 1:20 "...and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. Since the stated purpose of God is to RECONCILE ALL things to himself, the penal-substitution theory of atonement does not fit because under this theory, most of humanity end up being never reconciled to God and are punished in the lake of fire forever, or annihilated.

Ilikecats · May 13, 2020

Oldmantook said:
The penal-substitution theory of Jesus' atonement supposes that God's wrath was satisfied at the cross as Jesus was penalized for our sins. Thus Jesus took our place and was punished for us. However, this theory does not jive with other scriptures such as Col 1:20 "...and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. Since the stated purpose of God is to RECONCILE ALL things to himself, the penal-substitution theory of atonement does not fit because under this theory, most of humanity end up being never reconciled to God and are punished in the lake of fire forever, or annihilated.

The reconciliation was to make Jesus the king of creation. All things were put under his command once he died and rose from the grave. The exact nature of atonement isn’t stated in the bible but penal substitution is a valid theory because it reflects on how God the Father acted in the Old Testament regarding sin. Anyone that sinned willfully was put to death. The link then is that Jesus died the death of a sinner for the sins of believers which makes the punishment fulfilled.

Mark Quayle · May 13, 2020

zoidar said:
It says it, you just don't see it

Well, no, it doesn't. As far as I can tell, you only use it to show that we have the ability to choose. It is true that we do have the ability --in fact, we must, and indeed we do-- to choose, but that doesn't imply that we can become sheep. The designation, after all, is God's, not ours, to make.

Oldmantook · May 13, 2020

Ilikecats said:
The reconciliation was to make Jesus the king of creation. All things were put under his command once he died and rose from the grave. The exact nature of atonement isn’t stated in the bible but penal substitution is a valid theory because it reflects on how God the Father acted in the Old Testament regarding sin. Anyone that sinned willfully was put to death. The link then is that Jesus died the death of a sinner for the sins of believers which makes the punishment fulfilled.

Disagree because the penal-sub theory fails to account for the fact that God's stated purpose is to RECONCILE all things to Himself. Torment in hell forever and annihilation certainly do not qualify for the meaning of reconciliation.

Hammster · May 13, 2020

Oldmantook said:
The penal-substitution theory of Jesus' atonement supposes that God's wrath was satisfied at the cross as Jesus was penalized for our sins. Thus Jesus took our place and was punished for us. However, this theory does not jive with other scriptures such as Col 1:20 "...and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. Since the stated purpose of God is to RECONCILE ALL things to himself, the penal-substitution theory of atonement does not fit because under this theory, most of humanity end up being never reconciled to God and are punished in the lake of fire forever, or annihilated.

I know this will sound snarky, but this is typical synergist argumentation (at least as I’ve seen on CF). Take a part of a verse out of context and make an entire argument out of it that doesn’t fit the text.

For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities⁠—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach⁠— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
— Colossians 1:13-23

In context, it’s easy to see that “all things” don’t mean every single thing that is created. It has to do with His church, His body, and all things related to that.

zoidar · May 13, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Well, no, it doesn't. As far as I can tell, you only use it to show that we have the ability to choose. It is true that we do have the ability --in fact, we must, and indeed we do-- to choose, but that doesn't imply that we can become sheep. The designation, after all, is God's, not ours, to make.

What would be the purpose of Jesus telling them how to believe if they could not, and Jesus knew they couldn't?

I believe the Holy Spirit was working to convict those Jews of sin, but they shut their hearts, which made it impossible for them to believe. God wanted them to believe, Jesus wanted them to believe, the Holy Spirit wanted them to believe. They wouldn't.

Heb 4:7
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

agapelove · May 13, 2020

Hammster said:
I know this will sound snarky, but this is typical synergist argumentation (at least as I’ve seen on CF). Take a part of a verse out of context and make an entire argument out of it that doesn’t fit the text.

For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities⁠—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach⁠— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
— Colossians 1:13-23

In context, it’s easy to see that “all things” don’t mean every single thing that is created. It has to do with His church, His body, and all things related to that.

How is the context saying that at all?

By him "all things" were created, through Him and for Him. Pretty sure that's the whole package.

zoidar · May 13, 2020

agapelove said:
How is the context saying that at all?

By him "all things" were created, through Him and for Him. Pretty sure that's the whole package.

Also John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

zoidar · May 13, 2020

Oldmantook said:
Disagree because the penal-sub theory fails to account for the fact that God's stated purpose is to RECONCILE all things to Himself. Torment in hell forever and annihilation certainly do not qualify for the meaning of reconciliation.

Are you an universialist?

Everything was reconciled at the cross, but the full extent, the visible part of the atonement is yet to come. There will be a new Earth. The Church has since long taught that not everyone will make it to the new Earth/heaven.

Oldmantook · May 14, 2020

zoidar said:
Are you an universialist?

Everything was reconciled at the cross, but the full extent, the visible part of the atonement is yet to come. There will be a new Earth. The Church has since long taught that not everyone will make it to the new Earth/heaven.

How can everything be reconciled at the cross given the belief that the vast majority of humankind will end up in the lake of fire to be either annihilated or tormented forever? That is certainly not the definition of what it means to be reconciled with God.

Hammster · May 14, 2020

agapelove said:
How is the context saying that at all?

By him "all things" were created, through Him and for Him. Pretty sure that's the whole package.

Let’s say that you correct. There are varying ideas about this. Jesus is Lord of all. So in a sense, all things will be reconciled to Him as sovereign. It means to bring together under one head. Where else do we see this?

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
— Philippians 2:9-11
I’m good with either understanding.

Oldmantook · May 14, 2020

Hammster said:
I know this will sound snarky, but this is typical synergist argumentation (at least as I’ve seen on CF). Take a part of a verse out of context and make an entire argument out of it that doesn’t fit the text.

For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities⁠—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach⁠— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
— Colossians 1:13-23

In context, it’s easy to see that “all things” don’t mean every single thing that is created. It has to do with His church, His body, and all things related to that.

I see no snarkiness in your comment. However I read the passage as universal in scope as it cites all creation, all things created, before all things, in Him all things hold together. It then goes on to state "He is ALSO the head of the body, church etc. Thus God will reconcile all things to Himself, ALSO INCLUDING the church.

If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

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