Why the stay at home order needs to be lifted now

keith99 · May 13, 2020

Let's put that number in perspective. The total American deaths in the Vietnam war was 58,200. Covid-19 has passed that in a few months.

A_Thinker · May 13, 2020

Albion said:
However, other medical authorities are telling us that almost that many will die BECAUSE of the lockdowns.

Can you point us to some studies that have developed this level of loss of life sue to the shutdown ?

sfs · May 13, 2020

paul1149 said:
That is to say, the odds of dying from the CCP virus are .02% IF you contract it. Many will not contract it, so the denominator is even larger.

That's not even remotely correct. The fatality rate if you're infected is in the range of 1% -- 50 times higher.

A_Thinker · May 13, 2020

paul1149 said:
That is to say, the odds of dying from the CCP virus are .02% IF you contract it. Many will not contract it, so the denominator is even larger.

How will the majority avoid contracting COVID ?

Albion · May 13, 2020

A_Thinker said:
What is the lssue ?

As I said--and contrary to what you said--an "easing" isn't the issue.

Getting us out of most, if not all, of the lockdowns is the issue. Anyone can tinker around the edges--that's what "easing" means to people who advocate doing just that--but tokenism is not what's needed.

And, if you're not averse to it, tell us what level of human loss of life you are willing to endure in your plan ?

It's not my plan and I resent your cutesy wording. There will be deaths from the virus in any case. Did you not get that in the post where I mentioned statistics?

We have no perfect way out of this. Every competent observer, every expert, knows this. The dispute is over the best course of action when there are no really great ones!

A_Thinker · May 13, 2020

Albion said:
As I said--and contrary to what you said--an "easing" isn't the issue.

Getting us out of most, if not all, of the lockdowns is the issue. Anyone can tinker around the edges--that's what "easing" means to people who advocate doing just that--but tokenism is not what's needed.

It's not my plan and I resent your prejudicial wording. There will be deaths from the virus in any case. Did you not get that in the post where I mentioned statistics?

We have no perfect way out of this. Every competent observer, every expert, knows this. The dispute is over the best course of action when there are no really great ones!

So ... what limitation, if any, of loss of human loss of life should we be shooting for ?

A_Thinker · May 13, 2020

A_Thinker said:
Actually, I was giving you the opportunity to outline and advocate your ideal plan, ... but, no matter.

So ... what limitation, if any, of loss of human loss of life should the US be shooting for ?

Hank77 · May 13, 2020

There isn't any paywall on this article in the NYT. Info. on each state, when they shut down, reopened, what's open/what's not, who is the Governor, etc.

See Which States Are Reopening and Which Are Still Shut Down

See Which States Are Reopening and Which Are Still Shut Down

Hank77 · May 13, 2020

Albion said:
We have no perfect way out of this. Every competent observer, every expert, knows this. The dispute is over the best course of action when there are no really great ones!

I agree and if anyone watched the hearing yesterday they know that Republicans, Democrats, and the medical experts ALL agreed on one thing. We MUST be able to do contact tracing and testing.

Joe unknowingly passes the virus on to Sally, Sally is asymptomatic and she unknowingly passes the virus on to three other people and those three people pass it on to nine other people. With contact tracing, Sally is tested and found positive so she quarantines at home. 12 people don't get the virus and pass it on to 36 other people.
Testing, testing, testing is the way we can safely open the economies in the states along with the other mitigation practices, masks, washing hands, etc..

mama2one · May 13, 2020

Ken Rank · May 13, 2020

Isilwen said:
To the OP; your post is a stab the back to people such as myself working on the front lines in the medical field.

We are not ready to open, not even close. It's not about those who will not come down with the symptoms, but rather about who they will unknowingly spread it to.

I will continue to open my mouth in favor of continuing stay-at-home orders.

We closed to keep hospitals from overflowing, from going beyond capacity. Almost all hospitals in the country are below capacity, many empty. The University of Kentucky has lost over 170 Million dollars because they cancelled everything to be ready for the onslaught of Covid patients, of which they have had 17.

We have succeeded keeping hospitals from going over capacity... it's time to go back to work. But we won't because this is now political, and insane political. In Ocean County NJ you can surf but not swim, job on but not sit on a beach. Is there science to that? Yes... sitting on a beach causes your body to create vitamin D-3 which might actually keep you healthy. In Michigan going to your neighbors home was a crime? Riding in a Kayak was ok but a motor boat was against the law? Politics...

In the end, 0.0... that is the % of people in this country that have contracted and died from this virus. Open the country, we are ready!

d taylor · May 13, 2020

In Mississippi there was never any actual stay at home orders were you were confronted by authorizes, if you were out going some where.

They did close down businesses like clothing stores and gift shops, hair cutting business. But the owners could go to their business but they just could not open.

I will add that is at least where i was in Ms jackson may have been different it has a democrat mayor

Ken Rank · May 13, 2020

paul1149 said:
That is to say, the odds of dying from the CCP virus are .02% IF you contract it. Many will not contract it, so the denominator is even larger.

Both sides have some good arguments. NYC is the epicenter of the virus in the US (and probably the world) because Cuomo and De Blasio did not restrict the NYC subway to essential travel. De Blasio was still encouraging people to come to public functions late in the game, even later than Pelosi with her infamous invitation to come to Chinatown in SF. Masks were not required on the subway until a few weeks ago. Then there's Cuomo's disastrous order for nursing homes to accept Covid patients from hospitals.

That's a different picture than in South Dakota, where the average distance between people is measured in miles. We're a big country and one size does not fit all.

But for governors to lock down beaches and other outdoor areas is baseless. To prevent churches from open-air services is absurd. To empty prisons of violent criminals and then fill the cells with businessmen trying to feed their families and avoid ruination is itself criminal.

So I support intelligent civil disobedience. Not all the rules should be broken at this point, but many should. All the models were wrong. It's past time to get back to work.

BTW, this is a compelling video. Watch to the end. Slight language warning.

California Police STAND DOWN After Marine Vet
California Police STAND DOWN After Marine Vet Challenges Their Integrity

NYC couldn't shut down the subways, nobody owns cars. When you go to NY and see cars you are seeing tourists. Anyway... 0.02% of this country have contracted and died from Covid 19. Remove the over 65 crowd and you have 16,000 left which is 0.004%. Those are REAL numbers... but we are destroying the economy over it.

Ken Rank · May 13, 2020

Again... based on 82,000 deaths and a population of 330 million... 0.02% of the country has contracted and died from Covid 19. If you remove the over 65's that have passed from this, you are left with 16,000 people or 0.004%. We are closing the country and destroying the economy, creating an unemployment situation that will seriously hurt people in the months to come... when we could protect the elderly and get back to work. But we won't because there is now politics behind all this. As Rahm Emanuel is famous for saying, "never let a good crisis go to waste." And they aren't.

Isilwen · May 13, 2020

Ken Rank said:
We closed to keep hospitals from overflowing, from going beyond capacity. Almost all hospitals in the country are below capacity, many empty. The University of Kentucky has lost over 170 Million dollars because they cancelled everything to be ready for the onslaught of Covid patients, of which they have had 17.

We have succeeded keeping hospitals from going over capacity... it's time to go back to work. But we won't because this is now political, and insane political. In Ocean County NJ you can surf but not swim, job on but not sit on a beach. Is there science to that? Yes... sitting on a beach causes your body to create vitamin D-3 which might actually keep you healthy. In Michigan going to your neighbors home was a crime? Riding in a Kayak was ok but a motor boat was against the law? Politics...

In the end, 0.0... that is the % of people in this country that have contracted and died from this virus. Open the country, we are ready!

You're delusional if you think 0.0% contracted and died from this virus.

I have transported the bodies that died from the virus. You need to watch who you're trying to fool because they may actually may know more than you!

We're not ready to open, but if you think we are, go work in the Covid unit or better yet, work EMS. You may feel differently after you do!

sfs · May 13, 2020

Ken Rank said:
Again... based on 82,000 deaths and a population of 330 million... 0.02% of the country has contracted and died from Covid 19.

And if you infect the entire population, twenty times that will die.

Ken Rank said:
If you remove the over 65's that have passed from this, you are left with 16,000 people or 0.004%.

I wasn't aware that people over 65 didn't count.

Ken Rank said:
We are closing the country and destroying the economy, creating an unemployment situation that will seriously hurt people in the months to come... when we could protect the elderly and get back to work.

That's what we're supposed to be doing: getting the infection rate down low enough that testing, tracing, and less onerous distancing measures will keep the outbreak from getting out of control. That's what all of our efforts should be focused on -- something that would be a lot easier if we had any leadership coming from the Federal government. But if we relax measures without getting to that situation, we'll be right back where we started -- uncontrolled spread of a deadly disease in an almost entirely susceptible population -- except that we will have done immense economic damage for no gain.

Ken Rank said:
But we won't because there is now politics behind all this.

What are you talking about? Every state I know of is making plans for relaxing restrictions. Here in Massachusetts, restrictions will probably start loosening in a couple more weeks. Who gains politically from keeping people out of work?

Isilwen · May 13, 2020

sfs said:
And if you infect the entire population, twenty times that will die.

That seems to be the running theme. It's not the lives that matter, but the money that can be made by people going back to work.

I am all for the government, like other countries paying it's citizens during this, but nope this is 'murica!

expos4ever · May 13, 2020

Isilwen said:
You're delusional if you think 0.0% contracted and died from this virus..........

You appear to be relatively new to this august forum. Well, I hate to deliver the sobering news, and this may not be news at all, but this place is a veritable petri dish for the propagation of nonsense, some of it amusing (e.g. the flat-earthers), some of it downright dangerous (e.g. the anti-vaxxers).

You probably know this, but one of the dark sides of the 'openness' of the internet is that bad ideas spread like viruses. One might have thought that the public nature of the internet would suppress the lunacy, as bad ideas would be exposed to so much 'sunlight'. However, it appears to have not worked out that way - the conspiracy theorists can find kindred spirits and nurture the delusions.

expos4ever · May 13, 2020

sfs said:
That's what we're supposed to be doing: getting the infection rate down low enough that testing, tracing, and less onerous distancing measures will keep the outbreak from getting out of control.

Excellent point, that bears repeating. I am a mere layman, but this seems this like precisely the factor that should drive the trade-off between opening and remaining shutdown.

GreekOrthodox · May 13, 2020

So just got off a company wide call as we're trying to figure out how to guide a world wide organization from this and the difficulties our home offices are going to encounter. There is a lot to consider. FYI, I work for a communications company with 90% of our business in the hospital market. We have on staff 51 nurses and a couple of physicians who were in C-level positions at little hospitals like the Cleveland Clinic.

Some of things we're trying to work out. Who must be in the office building? How do we manage areas that are cubicles? For in-person conferences, does everyone need their own set of dry-erase markers? For employees who depend on public transportation, how do we keep them (and their families) safe? For those of us that are embedded at a hospital, what are our guidelines in handling potentially infected equipment especially since we have to provide our own PPE? Fortunately, I was partially stocked before this happened but I'm going to run out at some point. We've only had 2 deaths here, while my counterpart in NYC reported today that they have 10-15 codes PER HOUR.

This is not a simple issue and yes, NYC has to be treated differently than South Dakota. However, we're already seeing that meat processing plants are being shut down in rural towns that depend on them as the primary employer due to infections. Those plants WONT be able to run because their staff is sick.

We will be phased in and out of restrictions dependant on the area and what is going on. Our office in SF will be reacting differently than our London or Australian office. All I know is it will be a mess and won't be over for a long time.

Why the stay at home order needs to be lifted now

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