Who Goes To Hell?

BlessedCreator

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Good grief! ! ! Wake up: the sheep are His, the goats are His. Both are clean animals, not one clean the other unclean.

b679f3863cfb9e56a5e3226af07372f01500e0c6.jpeg


The foundation for everlasting punishment =

  1. I was hungry and you gave Me no meat.

  2. I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink:

  3. I was a stranger and you took Me not in.

  4. I was naked and you did not clothe Me.

  5. I was in prison and you did not visit Me.
Upon this foundation rests the doctrine of “everlasting punishment”, the cornerstone text for the same.

I am referring to the parable in Matthew 25 where the saints are symbolized by the sheep and the wicked by the goats. I know there is nothing evil about these animals. That is just the language of the parable to show that there will be two different types of humans at the end of the world. One going to heaven the other to hell.

Every commandment is important. Dont think that because ye do one and ignore another that that is acceptable. Matthew 25:30 tells us the unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness. Matthew 7:13-14 tells us few will be saved.
 
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Saint Steven

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thomas_t

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Renewal means renewal, unity means unity. Two different things.
Restoration means restauration. Universal reconciliation means everyone entering heaven. Two different things again.
It's not all the same.
UR is an exit-hell-for-free card, I hope it is not valid. They spend some time in punishment and then they can exit hell for free, this is how I understand UR (universal reconciliation).
First of all, UR is an offence against jesus. To me, it comes across like saying "not inviting to heaven those who killed you, Jesus, is so endlessly cruel from your side! You must take them into your arms and kiss them and be with them together for all eternity. Please whisper "rape me again and again and again, eternally! I love it!""
That's ignorant, in my opinion.
Those ocean-polluters will need to be corrected before they go to heaven.

Romans 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice,
but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself
will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought
into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
It even says "in hope", so what makes you think they will accept being corrected? Revelations 11:10 shows that they probably won't.
 
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TLSITD

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Who goes to hell?

  • People who don't love God
  • People who reject Jesus Christ as their Savior
  • People who don't have the Holy Spirit
  • People who aren't God's elect
  • People who choose not to remain in Christ after coming to be in Him by persisting in deliberate sin and not obeying Him
If you could lower a microphone into hell, you would hear two things: People bewailing their punishment ("woe is me") and people cursing God.

What you would not hear would be people begging for God's forgiveness for their sins.
 
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Der Alte

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Unity means the restoration or renewal of all things.
Matt 19:28:
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets
.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
 
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Saint Steven

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Renewal means renewal, unity means unity. Two different things.
Restoration means restauration. Universal reconciliation means everyone entering heaven. Two different things again.
It's not all the same.
UR is an exit-hell-for-free card, I hope it is not valid. They spend some time in punishment and then they can exit hell for free, this is how I understand UR (universal reconciliation).
First of all, UR is an offence against jesus. To me, it comes across like saying "not inviting to heaven those who killed you, Jesus, is so endlessly cruel from your side! You must take them into your arms and kiss them and be with them together for all eternity. Please whisper "rape me again and again and again, eternally! I love it!""
That's ignorant, in my opinion.

It even says "in hope", so what makes you think they will accept being corrected? Revelations 11:10 shows that they probably won't.
It appears that your mind is made up. You will not listen to reason. Is that correct?
 
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Der Alte

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It appears that your mind is made up. You will not listen to reason. Is that correct?
I would say it is the other way around. UR-ites keep quoting the same out-of-context proof texts, posting endless quotes from biased UR writers, mis/reinterpreting scripture etc.
 
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ClementofA

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Matthew 7:13-14 tells us few will be saved.

1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it (Mt.7:13-14)
2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

Both are right.

Jesus was referring to the situation at His time in the first century, not final destiny.

Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it". This Greek Interliner says "finding":

Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Young's Literal Translation
how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

"Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter(eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

"How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"

"In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."

"Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future."

Note the word "many", not "few":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All. Those will He "justify" (Isa.53:11).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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ClementofA

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You've never found a verse signifying that the states of the damned and saved will be forever, eternal, unending, always?
Check this out: Is "for ever and ever" eternal?

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If Any Man Worship The Beast And His Image, And Receive His Mark In His Forehead, Or In His Hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; And He Shall Be Tormented With Fire And Brimstone In The Presence Of The Holy Angels, And In The Presence Of The Lamb: And the smoke of Their Torment Ascendeth up For Ever and Ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
• Revelation 14:9-11


IMO there's no endless tortures for anyone there or anywhere else in the Scriptures, properly translated without an Endless Tormenter bias. More honest accurate and literal translations are like this:

Berean Literal Bible
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages; and those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest day and night, and if anyone receives the mark of its name."

Darby Bible Translation
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name.

Weymouth New Testament
And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.

Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Greek-English Interlinear says "ages of ages" here:

Revelation 14:11 Interlinear: and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

The translators biased to the endless hell dogma rendered terms (olam, aion, aionios, etc) that can & do - often - refer to finite durations as "eternal", "forever" & the like in contexts referring to eschatological punishment. Thus, they rendered them according to their theological position. What they should have done is translated them as theologically neutral terms, e.g. eon, eonian, which can refer either to a finite or endless period of time. And left the interpreting up to the readers whether or not, in any given context, the words "eon" & "eonian" refer to a finite or endless "eon" or "eonian" duration. But, instead they injected their opinion, their interpretation, of terms (such as olam, aion & aionion) into the text. Thus you don't have a faithful translation of these words with most English translations, but rather an interpretation, a paraphrase, a theologically driven opinion.

The fair way to translate (olam, aion, aionion, etc) is to use an English word (e.g. eon, eonian) that covers the range of meanings for that term & leave the interpreting up to the readers. Rather than inject one's theological biases into Scripture's ancient language words that have multiple or ambiguous meanings. If an appropriate English word is not available, then there is the option of using the ancient language word, i.e. not translating it, as some versions have done, e.g. using aionion. Or just transliterate it into English, e.g. eonian (or alternately aeonian, agian, etc.).

For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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ClementofA

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Then Jesus states "every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." What does that mean?

Ezekiel 43:25
25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
Leviticus 2:13
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.
Every offering must be without blemish before they are salted, they are not made "without blemish" by the fire/salt. So vs. 49 refers to followers of Jesus not all mankind.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Those OT verses don't speak of any people being "salted with fire" (Mk.9:49), so your conclusion is hardly proven & seems to be nothing more than speculation or guess work. Here, however, is a passage that connects people with fire:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

v. 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire."

As for Mark 9:42-48, nothing there says tortures are endless. Instead it refers to a fire and worm. And a fire that is not quenched can end or burn out on it's own, as proven by:

"Let us see how the word "asbestos (unquenchable) was used by the Greeks. Strabo calls it the lamp in the Parthenon, and Plutarch calls the sacred fire of a temple "unquenchable," though they were extinguished long ago. Josephus, the Jewish Priest who saw the destruction of Jerusalem says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was "always unquenchable" abeston aei, yet he was there when the fire on the altar was forever extinguished. Eusibius, the church historian who lived in Constantine's day says that certain martyrs of Alexandria "were burned in unquenchable fire." The fire was put out within an hour! Homer speaks of "unquenchable laughter" asbestos gelos, (Iliad, I: 599)"

Bible Threatening Explained

Nothing there says they stay in Gehenna for endless ages, so can't come out. Neither does it say that while in Gehenna there is no salvation. In the book of Revelation the gates into the city of God are always open. God says He is making "all" new (21:5).

Unquenchabe is limited not endless...ancient examples given here:

A Key to Universalism


"Mark 9:43: "into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire." First, the word "unquenchable" in the Bible is translated from the Greek word asbestos which simply means "not quenched." In itself, that is not the same as "not ABLE to be quenched" or "unquenchable." It is similar to God's judgments being without appeal "until they have finished all his plans:"

"The fierce anger of the LORD will not diminish until it has finished all his plans. In the days to come, you will understand all this.."(Jer 30:24)."

As for an immortal worm that never dies, some ECT commentators say it refers to the immortal soul. ECTers can't agree amongst themselves what it means & Jesus didn't elaborate. In Isaiah 66 the worm is spoken of in the same verse that speaks of "corpses". So, they could be eating dead bodies during the millennial age eon.

"Perhaps unbeknownst to many traditionalists who cite this verse...Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 here, in which it is said explicitly that it is corpses being consumed by fire and maggots—not living beings. Those traditionalists who are aware of this nevertheless insist that the worm is depicted as never dying and the fire as never going out. But this is not what these idioms communicate."

"The phrase “does not die” is used several times in the Hebrew scripture and does not mean will never die (Genesis 42:20; Exodus 30:20; Jeremiah 38:24). It means that someone or something will not die at a particular time or in a particular context."

how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

So such references could be about eating sinners sins or evil flesh nature till it is gone.

"Interesting aside, for what it may mean to anyone... Maggots are making a comeback in modern medicine. They gently debride wounds in a way no surgeon, however subtle, could possibly achieve. (Medical Maggots™ (maggot therapy, maggot debridement therapy, MDT, biotherapy, biosurgery, biodebridement, larval therapy) | Monarch Labs - Advanced Wound BioSurgery) They nibble away the dead and decaying cells, allowing healthy, new, regenerated cells to thrive instead. Maggots only eat dead tissue, leaving the living tissue to thrive. I think there's a big parallel there, but maybe I'm taking the "book of nature" to extremes. My husband's doctor at Mayo told me they had them there, available by prescription only--special hygienic ones, of course! :lol: "

"All these things we consider to be bad (by knee-jerk reaction at least) can also be seen as good--judgment, brimstone (aka sulfur & also used in medicine then and now), even maggots. Fire also is used in scripture as symbolic of purification--and we mustn't forget the nature of our God, who is, we're told, "a consuming fire."

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/introducing-myself/6329

"Now, salt too, just as the divine fire, is associated with the eschatological test in Mark 9:49, a text I have already analysed, where this fire is presented as purifying and performing the disinfecting function of salt: “all will be salted by this fire,” if they have lost their salt in this life." (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp., p.53)

"Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there [Gehenna] until you have paid up the last cent. The word - until - unmistakably confirms Gehenna is of a limited duration. Once the penalty is exacted, release follows, but not before. Note He addressed these words to a mixed audience of believers and unbelievers (Mt. 5:1;7:28; 8:1). (See also Mt. 18:34-35)." http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

4:39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.
42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Saint Steven

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1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it (Mt.7:13-14)
2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

Both are right.
AND... many = all. (same "many" as were made sinners by Adam's sin)
 
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Der Alte

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Those OT verses don't speak of any people being "salted with fire" (Mk.9:49), so your conclusion is hardly proven & seems to be nothing more than speculation or guess work. Here, however, is a passage that connects people with fire:
1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.
v. 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire."
As for Mark 9:42-48, nothing there says tortures are endless. Instead it refers to a fire and worm. And a fire that is not quenched can end or burn out on it's own, as proven by:
"Let us see how the word "asbestos (unquenchable) was used by the Greeks. Strabo calls it the lamp in the Parthenon, and Plutarch calls the sacred fire of a temple "unquenchable," though they were extinguished long ago. Josephus, the Jewish Priest who saw the destruction of Jerusalem says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was "always unquenchable" abeston aei, yet he was there when the fire on the altar was forever extinguished. Eusibius, the church historian who lived in Constantine's day says that certain martyrs of Alexandria "were burned in unquenchable fire." The fire was put out within an hour! Homer speaks of "unquenchable laughter" asbestos gelos, (Iliad, I: 599)"

Bible Threatening Explained
Nothing there says they stay in Gehenna for endless ages, so can't come out. Neither does it say that while in Gehenna there is no salvation. In the book of Revelation the gates into the city of God are always open. God says He is making "all" new (21:5).
Unquenchabe is limited not endless...ancient examples given here:

A Key to Universalism
"Mark 9:43: "into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire." First, the word "unquenchable" in the Bible is translated from the Greek word asbestos which simply means "not quenched." In itself, that is not the same as "not ABLE to be quenched" or "unquenchable." It is similar to God's judgments being without appeal "until they have finished all his plans:"
"The fierce anger of the LORD will not diminish until it has finished all his plans. In the days to come, you will understand all this.."(Jer 30:24)."
As for an immortal worm that never dies, some ECT commentators say it refers to the immortal soul. ECTers can't agree amongst themselves what it means & Jesus didn't elaborate. In Isaiah 66 the worm is spoken of in the same verse that speaks of "corpses". So, they could be eating dead bodies during the millennial age eon.
"Perhaps unbeknownst to many traditionalists who cite this verse...Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 here, in which it is said explicitly that it is corpses being consumed by fire and maggots—not living beings. Those traditionalists who are aware of this nevertheless insist that the worm is depicted as never dying and the fire as never going out. But this is not what these idioms communicate."
"The phrase “does not die” is used several times in the Hebrew scripture and does not mean will never die (Genesis 42:20; Exodus 30:20; Jeremiah 38:24). It means that someone or something will not die at a particular time or in a particular context."

how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire
So such references could be about eating sinners sins or evil flesh nature till it is gone.
"Interesting aside, for what it may mean to anyone... Maggots are making a comeback in modern medicine. They gently debride wounds in a way no surgeon, however subtle, could possibly achieve. (Medical Maggots™ (maggot therapy, maggot debridement therapy, MDT, biotherapy, biosurgery, biodebridement, larval therapy) | Monarch Labs - Advanced Wound BioSurgery) They nibble away the dead and decaying cells, allowing healthy, new, regenerated cells to thrive instead. Maggots only eat dead tissue, leaving the living tissue to thrive. I think there's a big parallel there, but maybe I'm taking the "book of nature" to extremes. My husband's doctor at Mayo told me they had them there, available by prescription only--special hygienic ones, of course! :lol: "
"All these things we consider to be bad (by knee-jerk reaction at least) can also be seen as good--judgment, brimstone (aka sulfur & also used in medicine then and now), even maggots. Fire also is used in scripture as symbolic of purification--and we mustn't forget the nature of our God, who is, we're told, "a consuming fire."

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/introducing-myself/6329
"Now, salt too, just as the divine fire, is associated with the eschatological test in Mark 9:49, a text I have already analysed, where this fire is presented as purifying and performing the disinfecting function of salt: “all will be salted by this fire,” if they have lost their salt in this life." (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp., p.53)
"Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there [Gehenna] until you have paid up the last cent. The word - until - unmistakably confirms Gehenna is of a limited duration. Once the penalty is exacted, release follows, but not before. Note He addressed these words to a mixed audience of believers and unbelievers (Mt. 5:1;7:28; 8:1). (See also Mt. 18:34-35)." http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
4:39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.
42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
And once again the endless copy/pastes from Tentmaker, other forums, etc. If I want to read their stuff I will go to their websites. I prefer to have discussions with people who can express their beliefs in their own words. FYI Gerry Beauchemin does not list any qualifications in Hebrew or Greek https://www.hopebeyondhell.net/about-me/
 
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I am referring to the parable in Matthew 25 where the saints are symbolized by the sheep and the wicked by the goats. I know there is nothing evil about these animals. That is just the language of the parable to show that there will be two different types of humans at the end of the world. One going to heaven the other to hell.

The facts are these: the goats are His, the sheep are His. Both are clean animals, not one clean & the other unclean. The entire context is regarding virgins (5 wise & 5 unwise),
but pure clean virgins!

This passage has NOTHING to do with going to hell (any one of the four hell's).

Take 2: what are the 5 qualifying factors for aionios kolasis?

b679f3863cfb9e56a5e3226af07372f01500e0c6.jpeg
 
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ClementofA

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Renewal means renewal, unity means unity. Two different things.

Eph.1:10 a time when "all" of those in the heavens & on earth will be "in Christ", i.e. saved. Clearly that hasn't yet been fulfilled, but is stated to be His will & purpose:

9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)" 10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth" 11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also (Eph.1, CLV)


UR is an exit-hell-for-free card, I hope it is not valid. They spend some time in punishment and then they can exit hell for free, this is how I understand UR (universal reconciliation).

I think you left out some very important requirements for those in "hell" to be saved, namely repentance, faith & the blood of Jesus.

If you consider your own repentance & faith to have been a "free" stay out of "hell" free card, why should it be any different for those in "hell"?

Also, how could getting "punishment" in hell be considered getting out for "free"? If a criminal goes to prison for decades & then is released, did he get away with his crime for "free", without having to pay for it or suffer for it? Scripture says what you sow you will reap (Ga.6:7-8,).

First of all, UR is an offence against jesus. To me, it comes across like saying "not inviting to heaven those who killed you, Jesus, is so endlessly cruel from your side!

The cruel aspect would be that they'd be tortured for all eternity. Or endlessly gassed out of existence Hitler style. After appropriate sadistic torments, of course.

You must take them into your arms and kiss them and be with them together for all eternity. Please whisper "rape me again and again and again, eternally! I love it!""

Somehow i doubt anyone in "hell" will be raping anyone.

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

It even says "in hope", so what makes you think they will accept being corrected?

Rom.8:19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God. 20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation" 21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God. (CLV)

The word "hope" is better translated "expectation".

HELPS Word-studies
1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. Strong's Greek: 1680. ἐλπίς (elpis) -- expectation, hope

Rev.21:5 "He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!"
 
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ClementofA

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And once again the endless copy/pastes from Tentmaker, other forums, etc.


Did you not see all my comments in the post.

And why would i rewrite in my own words what others have already stated so well? Especially when they are sources like BDAG which you also often copy/paste, along with your Jewish fables & myths you rely on.

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I prefer to have discussions with people who can express their beliefs in their own words.

Did you not see all my comments in the post.

And why would i rewrite in my own words what others have already stated so well? Especially when they are sources like BDAG which you also often copy/paste, along with your Jewish fables & myths you rely on.

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).


FYI Gerry Beauchemin does not list any qualifications in Hebrew or Greek https://www.hopebeyondhell.net/about-me/

What are your qualifications. Where are they listed? How is this relevant?

Even if he was the Pope of Greek scholars, it would make no difference to those following their pastor's teaching on endless sufferings for teens who died without ever hearing the gospel.

Moreover scholars disagree with scholars, so does it matter if he doesn't have any qualifications? Can people not compare what the scholars on opposing sides have said & prayerfully reach their own conclusions with the Lord as their Teacher?

1 John 2:27
And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.
 
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BlessedCreator

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The facts are these: the goats are His, the sheep are His. Both are clean animals, not one clean & the other unclean. The entire context is regarding virgins (5 wise & 5 unwise),
but pure clean virgins!

This passage has NOTHING to do with going to hell (any one of the four hell's).

Take 2: what are the 5 qualifying factors for aionios kolasis?

b679f3863cfb9e56a5e3226af07372f01500e0c6.jpeg
You're wrong sorry.
The parable of the sheep and goats starts at verse 25 in Matthew chapter 25.

"33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."

"41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"
 
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BlessedCreator

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Do you wear tassels? That's a commandment.

We're not under the law of Moses. That doesn't mean God doesn't have commandments for us to obey. Such as we are commanded in 1 John 2:15-17
"15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."
 
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BlessedCreator

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1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it (Mt.7:13-14)
2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

Both are right.

Jesus was referring to the situation at His time in the first century, not final destiny.

Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it". This Greek Interliner says "finding":

Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Young's Literal Translation
how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

"Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter(eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

"How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"

"In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."

"Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future."

Note the word "many", not "few":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All. Those will He "justify" (Isa.53:11).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"Few there be that find it.—The sad contrast between the many and the few runs through all our Lord’s teaching. He comes to “save the world,” and yet those whom He chooses out of the world are but as a “little flock.” They are to preach the gospel, and yet the result will be but discord and division. The picture is a dark one, and yet it represents but too faithfully the impression made, I do not say on Calvinist or even Christian, but on any ethical teacher, by the actual state of mankind around us. They are, for the most part, unconscious of the greatness of their lives, and of the interests at stake in them. If there is any wider hope, it is found in hints and suggestions of the possibilities of the future (1Peter 3:19; 1Peter 4:6); in the fact that the words used are emphatically present; in the belief that the short span of this life is not necessarily the whole of the discipline of a soul made for eternity; and that the new life, nascent, and feeble, and stunted here, may be quickened by some new process of education into higher energies." -Ellicott commentary on Matthew 7:14
 
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Saint Steven

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We're not under the law of Moses. That doesn't mean God doesn't have commandments for us to obey. Such as we are commanded in 1 John 2:15-17
"15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."
Words to live by, but not the source of salvation.
 
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John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.


I only had one argument which has NOT been disproved.
Jesus did not say, or imply "night is coming when I cannot work but don't worry I'll be back." Jesus did not preach to Paul in the flesh. He said "no man can work" And those who have died cannot work.

What argument? Where does any of that, or anything in John 9, say, imply, suggest or even hint that maybe people cannot repent or be saved after death? It looks to me like you've got nothing.

Jesus did not say, as you allege, "those who have died cannot work". And even if that were true, their resurrection from death back to life might reverse that.

Jesus said "night cometh, when no man can work". He didn't say "once night cometh no man will ever have another chance to repent or be saved".

What does it matter if "Jesus did not preach to Paul in the flesh". Work is work, regardless. As is His intercession, raising the dead, judging the world, etc.

Since He appeared to & spoke to His disciples & preached postmortem, then such works continued & nothing in John 9 rules out Jesus doing so in Hades & the LOF for the repentance & salvation of those there.

Moreover the context in John 9 isn't even talking about salvation, but healing a blind man so he can see:

1And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 4I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. 5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. 6When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, 7And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing. 8The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. 10Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened? 11He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight. 12Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.


Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish

A number of commentators apply verse 14 to - nations - God had (past tense) destroyed in this world, which means it could have nothing to do with the - future - final destiny of individuals - postmortem in another world. Furthermore, many translations do not put it in the future tense "shall not live" as the KJV does, but in the present tense "do not live". Both of these points defeat the verse as an annihilationist "proof text".


Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Compare Lk.16:19-31. Did the "rich man" in Hades "know not any thing"? Or is Eccl.9:5 speaking of corpses such as are, for example, put in graves?

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

See my previous comment.
 
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