Should women cover their hair?

Radagast · May 11, 2020

Endeavourer said:
You didn't answer my question about whether or not Christ delivered women from sin or unto sin.... if women were delivered from the bondage of their sin only to be placed under the bondage of men's sins, then that wasn't much of a deliverance for women was it? Can you find any evidence anywhere in the Gospels or in other doctrinal writings that half of the human race was intended to be subjugated and in bondage to the sinfulness and depravity of the other half of it? Or is that a doctrine construed from the marital verses by some that is dissonant from the rest of the doctrines in the Bible? Is it possible you are misconstruing some key understandings of the liberty that Christ suffered and died to procure for all people, and not just men? Or, did Christ only come to deliver half of humanity from the bondage of sin?

That's a silly, and obviously rhetorical, question.

I've never even suggested such a thing.

Endeavourer · May 11, 2020

Radagast said:
You seem to be quoting something that you don't quite understand.

And, as I said, Ephesians 5:22-33, makes it clearer, where it talks about "the gynaikes to their own andrasin."

The word kephalē, in the singular, never means that. See here.

One can't simply make up meanings for Greek words to suit one's theology.

The word gune (or its other forms) appear 217 times in the NT. The word andros (or its forms) appear 216 times in the NT. Saying that Paul references a gune having her own andros somewhere else in Scripture is not persuasive with respect to his use of man and woman in 1 Cor 11:3.

That is what I would call a Frankenpaste.

Endeavourer · May 11, 2020

Radagast said:
That's a silly, and obviously rhetorical, question.

I've never even suggested such a thing.

Actually, it's not. It was after my long experience of such a situation that the Lord enlightened my eyes to the reality of what my terrible theology was actually saying. My post simply described the reality of the supposed hierarchical ordering of gender authority in an unfiltered way, however shocking it is to your ears.

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney · May 12, 2020

Endeavourer said:
I believe you are half right. The second part, equally as important is that the men's hair was causing an issue.

The church of Corinth included Gentile converts from the temple up the street which worshiped a goddess of fertility and engaged in orgies and other forms of sexual expressions of worship, both hetero and homosexual forms. Some males would wear feminine hair styles - cross dressing, if you will. On the other hand, in that day, a woman's hair would be shaved off if she were accused of prostitution or adultery. This is why Paul references the shame of shorn hair for women.

Paul is urging the church at Corinth to comport themselves in a way that leaves no doubt that the Christian worship is different from the worship up the street. To not behave in a way that causes confusion that Christian worship might include male or female prostitutes as part of the worship activities, or be anything like the sexual commotion in that other temple.

True which is why I wonder if this would be valid today, for hair is not even half as sexualized as other parts of the body. InspiringPhilosphy/Micheal Jones (a great Christian with incredible understanding of the Bible) says it was indeed a cultural issue. Also issues have the same issue with other parts of the body. I am still most likely going to cover my hair, though.

Radagast · May 12, 2020

Endeavourer said:
The word gune (or its other forms) appear 217 times in the NT. The word andros (or its forms) appear 216 times in the NT. Saying that Paul references a gune having her own andros somewhere else in Scripture is not persuasive with respect to his use of man and woman in 1 Cor 11:3.

I don't think you read what I said at all. The word gynē (with various word endings) means "woman" or "wife," and the word anēr/andros (with various word endings) means "man" or "husband."

But with the possessive (my gynē, your anēr, his own gynē, her own anēr), the words always mean "husband" and "wife."

And Ephesians 5:22-33 is extremely relevant, because it gives a longer and more detailed explanation of what "the anēr is the head of the gynē" means. And that passage is very clearly about husbands and wives.

Radagast · May 12, 2020

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney said:
I am still most likely going to cover my hair, though.

It is a difficult passage to interpret. Over the centuries, many women have felt that, although the reason is obscure, the instruction to cover the hair is quite clear.

So I'm certainly not going to try to talk you out of it.

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney · May 12, 2020

Radagast said:
It is a difficult passage to interpret. Over the centuries, many women have felt that, although the reason is obscure, the instruction to cover the hair is quite clear.

So I'm certainly not going to try to talk you out of it.

Meh, to be honest I haven’t done a good job of even practicing it. I do Pray a lot without a cover and I still feel close to God, yet at the same time I wonder if maybe there is something wrong in my heart to reject this at times.

Endeavourer · May 12, 2020

Radagast said:
And Ephesians 5:22-33 is extremely relevant, because it gives a longer and more detailed explanation of what "the anēr is the head of the gynē" means. And that passage is very clearly about husbands and wives.

Well, in order to present your position you have to start your reference at Ephesians 5:21, which is a problem for you.

Ephesians 5:22 does not have a verb in it and therefore, grammatically, leans on the prior sentence. You have to go back to the prior sentence for the context of the verb. The submission in v. 21 is mutual submission.

In spite of everyone thinking that Paul wrote the words "wives submit to your husbands", Eph 5:22 those words were not penned by Paul in Eph 5:22.

This is all v.22 says:
the wives to the own husbands as to the Lord

The verb of v 22 comes from v 21:
Submit one another in reverence Christ

That still doesn't prove that 1 Cor 11:3 has anything to do with the references here. You didn't refute that using the interpretation as 'source' in 1 Cor 11:3 cleaned up all of the doctrinal problems that otherwise present themselves. To start with, to take your position, you have to contend that the Son is eternally subordinate to the Father, so in essence, not the same being and essentially Christianity is polytheistic.

Then you have to address who is the head of unmarried women, widows, men who don't have wives, etc.

Then you have to address that if that is a recital of authority hierarchy, where does the Holy Spirit come in? Some in your camp allege that a pastor or elder is in the hierarchy. Where do they fit in? So, construing this verse to be a hierarchical statement of order leaves some holes and questions.

Radagast · May 12, 2020

Endeavourer said:
This is all v.22 says:
the wives to the own husbands as to the Lord

That was all that was needed for me to make my point.

Endeavourer said:
That still doesn't prove that 1 Cor 11:3 has anything to do with the references here.

Ephesians 5:22-33 is extremely relevant, because it gives a longer and more detailed explanation of what "the anēr is the head of the gynē" means. And that passage is very clearly about husbands and wives.

Therefore 1 Corinthians 11 is talking about head coverings in the context of husband-wife relationships.

Endeavourer said:
You didn't refute that using the interpretation as 'source' in 1 Cor 11:3

The word kephalē, in the singular, never means "source." See here.

Endeavourer said:
To start with, to take your position, you have to contend that the Son is eternally subordinate to the Father

No, I don't. You are making strange and inaccurate guesses about what I believe.

Endeavourer said:
Then you have to address who is the head of unmarried women, widows, men who don't have wives, etc.

No, I don't. The passage is only talking about headship in the context of married women.

Endeavourer said:
Then you have to address that if that is a recital of authority hierarchy, where does the Holy Spirit come in?

OK, now this is starting to get silly.

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney · May 12, 2020

What’s going on? I’m kinda lost.

Radagast · May 12, 2020

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney said:
What’s going on? I’m kinda lost.

There was a bit of side-tracking, but my main point was that the "man is the head of the woman" language in 1 Corinthians 11 really means "husband is the head of the wife," just as it does in Ephesians 5 (in Greek, "man" and "husband" are the same word).

Therefore, whatever the head-coverings in 1 Corinthians 11 are about, they have something to do with husband-wife relationships.

Of course, there's still that stuff about "angels." I don't really understand that.

Endeavourer · May 12, 2020

Radagast said:
That was all that was needed for me to make my point.

Only if you don't address my comment. Saying so is simply a argumentative feint while you faint from the substance of the point.

You have not addressed that 5:22 is not a sentence and stands on 5:21 for its verb.

I notice you only answer the questions you want but are unable to answer the bulk of my points.

Radagast said:
No, I don't. The passage is only talking about headship in the context of married women.

This claim is spurious as you didn't acknowledge or respond to most of my points. You can certainly help yourself to a bye on all the questions you couldn't answer while declaring victory if you would like. This is the internet after all and the standards of engagement etiquette are only those you care to offer.

My observation is that you are too invested in your filters to consider how much you are reading into Scripture that is either not there or helps you prevent a nonsensical result that would otherwise be obvious.

I recommend studying a point of view different from your own to challenge yourself. My understanding of Scripture has been greatly enriched by putting on a skeptic's hat while reading things I think I agree with as much as those I think I don't agree with. An easy read with some challenging perspectives is Kevin Giles' "What the Bible Actually Teaches On Women".

Endeavourer · May 12, 2020

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney said:
What’s going on? I’m kinda lost.

Radagast said:
There was a bit of side-tracking, but my main point was that the "man is the head of the woman" language in 1 Corinthians 11 really means "husband is the head of the wife," just as it does in Ephesians 5 (in Greek, "man" and "husband" are the same word).

Therefore, whatever the head-coverings in 1 Corinthians 11 are about, they have something to do with husband-wife relationships.

Of course, there's still that stuff about "angels." I don't really understand that.

Uff. You are not even in the right ball park. By reading doctrines into v3 that Paul did not insert and not exploring who Paul's audience was, you are missing the point of the entire passage.

Radagast · May 12, 2020

PeachyKeenAndHis said:
Who supports what???? Do either of you like the idea of coverage? I’m confused in this debate.

Summary of my point of view (since there was some side-tracking):

The first part of 1 Corinthians 11 tells women to cover their heads during worship.
The command is clear (although some people say that it no longer applies).
The reason is very confusing.
- Part of the reason relates to husband-wife relationships (that's what "the head of the woman is man" or "the head of the wife is the husband" refers to)
- Part of the reason relates to long hair for women and short hair for men.
- Part of the reason relates to angels (or perhaps "messengers"). I don't get that part at all.

FutureAndAHope · May 12, 2020

Endeavourer said:
I wasn't intending to be contentious. It was a sincere question. My Bible references women praying and prophesying. How do you apply this verse to your church? Are women allowed to express the gift of prophesy in your church?

1 Cor 11: 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Romans 12
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

I am not a pastor, in our church women are allowed to speak, and without head coverings, to represent them being under authority.

However if I was a Pastor, I would insist on head coverings, but still allow women to prophecy.

Be careful with implications or assumptions. One person can imply things one way and another read it entirely differently. The historical context of the verse provides a deeper understanding of the message. As it happens, Paul and Timothy were contesting for the gospel amongst a matriarchal pagan worship, where the goddess of fertility was highly revered. They were pointing out that women do not have a special status of reverence vis a vis the men. Somehow, modern thought has twisted that into teaching the verse as though men have a special status above women.

It is not that men have a special status, they are not better than women, but in Spiritual matters, and matters of the home God has made the man the spiritual head. This is not seen favorably, but as the bible says, it is a curse put on women when Eve sinned.

Gen 3:16 To the woman he said, Great will be your pain in childbirth; in sorrow will your children come to birth; still your desire will be for your husband, but he will be your master.

Today we live in a society that pushes women's liberation, and that is fine in the context of the work place, for we see in proverbs the picture of a virtuous woman, is one who trades, buys and sells. Yet in the context of the church and family, the man should be the "Spiritual" head of the woman.

Paul stresses that having a family should be a woman's focus, not a pure speaking role in the church. This I believe is far more fulfilling for a woman, I know my wife loves the idea of children, and has them by the way. Her desire is 100% toward family things, and her work, but she has no or very little desire for ministry.

Yet the church today seems to delight in putting women into preaching ministry roles, a role Paul did not let women have. It is not wrong for women to have ministries, be they to the poor, and needy, but I believe it is wrong to push them towards speaking roles in the church. According to the scriptures blue print. It should not be the focus of the church anyway.

So the exception proves the 'rule' incorrect. God certainly used wise women, including Deborah and Hulda in the OT, as you referenced above. Did you know that Isaiah's wife was a prophetess?

I don't believe women can not have ministry roles, they can. But according to the New Testament, the leadership and headship in the church should be the men.

Have you ever studied skeptical views of what you believe, to test your beliefs to make sure they are of God? When I did that on this very issue I was blown away at how quickly my position crumbled over things I had never considered. I noticed you never did answer my question about the fish and the lion.....

I have no done so. Maybe you could direct me to some.

Junia · May 25, 2020

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney said:
Meh, to be honest I haven’t done a good job of even practicing it. I do Pray a lot without a cover and I still feel close to God, yet at the same time I wonder if maybe there is something wrong in my heart to reject this at times.

Go for it, if you feel led to do it. I wouldn't talk you out of it either. But I will share my story on this issue

I had a lot of fear issues (to the point I was clinically OCD with it) around religious rules. i grew up under one type of legalism and then after getting saved as an adult i drifted int other kinds. because i believed God could never love me, I sough tto try get clean before God and became drawn to Hebrew roots type teachings (nothing wrong with in and of itself but i was not doing it from a place of being secure in my faith, so it was not good for me) and amongst things like Sababth keeping and kosher i became drawn intot he more new testament leglalism as well. i began feeling i should pray with my head covered and being the type of person who i was, i became obsessive about it. i felt i coul dnot approach God at all wihtout my head covered, so it could be 2AM and i'd wake up wanting to pray and then i would be like "i cant unless i get the cover on" but i thought ok, will try again. some weeks later i began learning about how we are saved by faith in Christ's finished work on the cross alone. it took a few months before i really got o grips with it and i discussed with my church about head covering and they told me "it was for the custom of the times because of the asscociations." then i asked about hair length and explained my texture of hair needs regular trims and also layering otherwise i would have 2 feet of "wings" of hair sticking out side of my head lol and she was like "length doesn't matter anymore they can see you are woman!" they explined the context, about temple prostitute shaving shorn hair etc

well one day i was praying to God "am i decieved about covering?" and i git just one word. "witchcraft." i did not understand it. then i stumbled across a passage in Galatians about the early church being told they had to eb circumcised and suddenly it clicked into place "who has bewitched you?" Paul asks the Galatians. "who (paraphrasing here) is putting you back under bondage to the law???" and i just knew then God was speaking..

when this happened i used to get this feelign my throat was being choked like a snake was round my neck. as soon as resolved this issue re; headcovering it went although sometimes i have felt it crep back at other times, usually when a, imposing some guilt on myself or burden, rather than resting in what the Lord has doen for me- basically i was trying to sty "saved" by being good enough. and that doesn't work.

so for me, i do not believe apropriate to cover until am more secure in my faith until am certain that i am heaven bound just by having received Jesus. untilt hat point i can go no further.

i admit th eother day my OCD had been bad, i have been very low these past few weeks and to be honest i think i ned ot be back on a stronger dose of medication. and i was gettign upset regarding someoen teling me that only people who dress holy will be saved and that most women were going to hell because of wearing adornments etc so i got into an OCD flap over it and stupidly posted or read posts on here on this topic. urghhhh.

i am feeling bad for anyone whom i have put in bondage due to my own issues. i sincerely apologise .

Junia · May 25, 2020

i will honeslty say that i do not believe these issues are "fundamentals" of christianity they cannot damn us nor save us. but of course some peopel feel they honouring God by doing them and that is fine. we have all got to work out our own walk with awe and trembling

ivy may · Aug 14, 2022

SeekingGloryOnThisJourney said:
Should Christian women cover their hair? In 1 Corinthians 11:2-16, it states that we should. Even if it’s just a thin headband it is still covering, so should we?
Tell me what you think.
I made this in another post as well.

in Corinthian culture, head coverings were worn as a sign of submission to their husbands. head coverings have a different cultural significance today. if the Holy Spirit directs you in this path, then by all means, do so. but let's make sure our focus is on glorifying God.

God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him. if wearing a head covering is a further expression in your satisfaction with His Will, then wear one if you'd like.
however, the change in our hearts is the same that took place in the hearts of the Corinthian women all those years ago.

hair is not such a glorified thing by our culture like it was back then. if you want to cover your hair for modesty... i would consider examining how you view your body. it is not a sensual object. if the men around you are tempted because you have your hair down, then they are clearly struggling big-time with their lust. that is something they need to take up with their Mediator and Savior Jesus. it is not your responsibility to cater to a lustful man.

walk worthy of the calling by which you have been called, and fix your eyes on Jesus.

ivy may · Aug 14, 2022

Junia said:
Go for it, if you feel led to do it. I wouldn't talk you out of it either. But I will share my story on this issue

I had a lot of fear issues (to the point I was clinically OCD with it) around religious rules. i grew up under one type of legalism and then after getting saved as an adult i drifted int other kinds. because i believed God could never love me, I sough tto try get clean before God and became drawn to Hebrew roots type teachings (nothing wrong with in and of itself but i was not doing it from a place of being secure in my faith, so it was not good for me) and amongst things like Sababth keeping and kosher i became drawn intot he more new testament leglalism as well. i began feeling i should pray with my head covered and being the type of person who i was, i became obsessive about it. i felt i coul dnot approach God at all wihtout my head covered, so it could be 2AM and i'd wake up wanting to pray and then i would be like "i cant unless i get the cover on" but i thought ok, will try again. some weeks later i began learning about how we are saved by faith in Christ's finished work on the cross alone. it took a few months before i really got o grips with it and i discussed with my church about head covering and they told me "it was for the custom of the times because of the asscociations." then i asked about hair length and explained my texture of hair needs regular trims and also layering otherwise i would have 2 feet of "wings" of hair sticking out side of my head lol and she was like "length doesn't matter anymore they can see you are woman!" they explined the context, about temple prostitute shaving shorn hair etc

well one day i was praying to God "am i decieved about covering?" and i git just one word. "witchcraft." i did not understand it. then i stumbled across a passage in Galatians about the early church being told they had to eb circumcised and suddenly it clicked into place "who has bewitched you?" Paul asks the Galatians. "who (paraphrasing here) is putting you back under bondage to the law???" and i just knew then God was speaking..

when this happened i used to get this feelign my throat was being choked like a snake was round my neck. as soon as resolved this issue re; headcovering it went although sometimes i have felt it crep back at other times, usually when a, imposing some guilt on myself or burden, rather than resting in what the Lord has doen for me- basically i was trying to sty "saved" by being good enough. and that doesn't work.

so for me, i do not believe apropriate to cover until am more secure in my faith until am certain that i am heaven bound just by having received Jesus. untilt hat point i can go no further.

i admit th eother day my OCD had been bad, i have been very low these past few weeks and to be honest i think i ned ot be back on a stronger dose of medication. and i was gettign upset regarding someoen teling me that only people who dress holy will be saved and that most women were going to hell because of wearing adornments etc so i got into an OCD flap over it and stupidly posted or read posts on here on this topic. urghhhh.

i am feeling bad for anyone whom i have put in bondage due to my own issues. i sincerely apologise .

hello Junia!! i hope you are having an incredible day my sister. thank you so much for your edifying and honest words, i can't thank you enough for sharing such important truths.

i look forward to the day when we will be in Heaven together because of what Jesus has done for us. we are clothed in His righteousness and we will see that on that day. our faith will be sight. i hope to give you the biggest hug then!

i inherited OCD from my dad's side, and it has manifested in many ways but moral scrupulosity OCD was no exception. when i read some of your words, i can envision myself too- from the past- trapped in fear about the same things. ughhh.. i don't know a worse feeling. it is the lies of the Devil trying to convince you that God's grace is not powerful enough.

i'm not gonna lie, your apology at the end made me tear up a bit, actually your post did in general. i really feel your genuine intentions and sincerity from the way you write. "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted". i hope you feel God's love and comfort more than you ever have. you are His precious child and creation.

i am repulsed by those people who make women fear that they will be condemned for something as silly as some metal or fabric on their body. there is no one but Satan and their own sinful Flesh propelling them to tell such lies. "Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved".

the Law shows us our sin, but the Gospel shows us our Savior. you are free, for you have accepted Him!

i feel so so sorry that you once thought God could never love you. He loves you. so much.

and i do too, as your sister in Christ!!

Should women cover their hair?

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