If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

Ilikecats · May 12, 2020

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world as stated in 1 John 2:2 but not everyone will be a believer. It’s God given faith that saves us which makes salvation dependent on God’s choice. If everyone is saved why then does John say to show love to fellow believers but to not love the world in the rest of 1 John 2? This separates believers from the world.

BobRyan · May 12, 2020

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Bob

Where do you see this statement in either Hebrews 4, or 9?

He is our high priest in heaven making intercession for those who choose to accept the Gospel and pray for forgiveness.

Heb 4:
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 9
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

BobRyan · May 12, 2020

Ilikecats said:
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world as stated in 1 John 2:2 but not everyone will be a believer. It’s God given faith that saves us which makes salvation dependent on God’s choice.

God's choice is "all"

So when that fails and someone rejects the Gospel this is God's response

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

As we see in these many examples where the choice of the person is presented in relation to salvation

BobRyan said:
2 Cor 5: "WE BEG YOU on half of Christ be reconciled to God"

Rev 3: "20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. "

Rom 10:9 " if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not. But to as many as received Him ..."

Luke 7: 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

Matt 23: 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Hammster · May 12, 2020

BobRyan said:
Heb 4:
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.unrighteousness.

The “us” is believers. We can draw near because our High Priest can sympathize. Nothing about choosing.
unrighteousness.

Heb 9
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?unrighteousness.

That’s the work Christ has done. Nothing about choosing.
unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is, again, for believers. Nothing about choosing. So how you think this explains John 6 and 12 is quite the mystery.

agapelove · May 12, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Why when Christ was ministering did he only refer to humanity in two categories Sheep (those who are under Gods grace and are written in the book of life) and Goats? (Those who are not written and suffer judgement for sinning against God)

Why did Jesus say in John 10 that he willingly is giving his life for the sheep? And that he will "give my life for the sheep?"

The Sheep and Goats parable is part of the bigger context of what Jesus is trying to teach in His Olivet Discourse, where he distinguishes between two types of people: Those who will help further the Kingdom of God (caring for the poor and needy) and those who will help further the Kingdom of this world (the opposite of caring for the poor and needy).

The sheep then became synonymous with His disciples and then eventually all believers. In John 10:16 Jesus tells us there will eventually be one flock and one shepherd.

Neostarwcc said:
If everybody can freely come to Jesus why did Jesus plainly say that nobody can come to him unless God the Father unhardens their heart and grants it to them? John 6:44, 66.

The purpose of believers and unbelievers is to glorify God in the end.
Romans 9:17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Neostarwcc said:
If Christ died for the world why did he say during his famous prayer just before he was handed over to pilate in John 17:1-10 that he was not praying for the world but "for those you have given me for they are yours" and previously from that all he talks about in his prayer are those who God the Father has given him?

"Those who the Father has given him" is referring specifically to his 12 disciples.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

The son of perdition is Judas.

Ilikecats · May 12, 2020

BobRyan said:
God's choice is "all"

So when that fails and someone rejects the Gospel this is God's response

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

As we see in these many examples where the choice of the person is presented in relation to salvation

Gods choice for salvation isn’t all. It’s whoever will believe in his son Jesus Christ as their lord and saviour. Does God choose for the unbeliever to be saved? Of course not then salvation would be unconditional. The condition is faith and it states many times in the bible that faith is not from oneself but a gift from God.

zoidar · May 12, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Why when Christ was ministering did he only refer to humanity in two categories Sheep (those who are under Gods grace and are written in the book of life) and Goats? (Those who are not written and suffer judgement for sinning against God)

Why did Jesus say in John 10 that he willingly is giving his life for the sheep? And that he will "give my life for the sheep?"

If everybody can freely come to Jesus why did Jesus plainly say that nobody can come to him unless God the Father unhardens their heart and grants it to them? John 6:44, 66.

I know John says in 1 john that Christ died for the sins of the whole world but there have been valid arguments around that for over 500 years now? Why are those arguments not considered or being considered as valid interpretations of scripture? And why is it the only verse in the bible that says that Jesus died for all?

If Christ died for the world why did he say during his famous prayer just before he was handed over to pilate in John 17:1-10 that he was not praying for the world but "for those you have given me for they are yours" and previously from that all he talks about in his prayer are those who God the Father has given him?

Why would God even have written a book of life from before the foundation of the world which contained the very sheep of God? If he didnt die for the sheep? To explain myself further what would be the point of him suffering for the sins of the whole world if only those written in his book inherit salvation?

Why does all of Roman's 9 support this point?

If God died for the entire world tgan why hasnt the entire world been given the chance ag salvation? People cannot deny that there are people called and considered "doomed" in scripture. Like the entire world in Noah's time when they refused to go into Noah's arc and believe him that the flood was coming. God said that he regretted making them and that they will perish. Also, if they had hope, why did God seal the door shut? Did they honestly have the chance at salvation? What about Judas,Pilate, the Pharisees and the very soldiers that tortured and crucified Jesus making salvation possible for you and I? True Jesus said "forgive them" but in other instances of scripture they were called without hope so that the glory of God may be revealed.

Also, notice during his 3 days in sheol Jesus only rescued the "righteous" dead and left the unrighteous dead there. If he left them there, not only why does God call them doomed but why didnt he give them the chance at salvation if everyone has the chance of getting saved? Why did Isaiah prophecy that most of israel was not Israel and would perish? Was there hope of salvation for them? When Isaiah called them doomed to destruction?

I will answer this by a philosophical question.

Do you think God could offer someone salvation without having jesus borne their sins? Do you think it would be just and righteous to do so?

Scott Husted · May 12, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Why when Christ was ministering did he only refer to humanity in two categories Sheep (those who are under Gods grace and are written in the book of life) and Goats? (Those who are not written and suffer judgement for sinning against God)

Why did Jesus say in John 10 that he willingly is giving his life for the sheep? And that he will "give my life for the sheep?"

If everybody can freely come to Jesus why did Jesus plainly say that nobody can come to him unless God the Father unhardens their heart and grants it to them? John 6:44, 66.

I know John says in 1 john that Christ died for the sins of the whole world but there have been valid arguments around that for over 500 years now? Why are those arguments not considered or being considered as valid interpretations of scripture? And why is it the only verse in the bible that says that Jesus died for all?

If Christ died for the world why did he say during his famous prayer just before he was handed over to pilate in John 17:1-10 that he was not praying for the world but "for those you have given me for they are yours" and previously from that all he talks about in his prayer are those who God the Father has given him?

Why would God even have written a book of life from before the foundation of the world which contained the very sheep of God? If he didnt die for the sheep? To explain myself further what would be the point of him suffering for the sins of the whole world if only those written in his book inherit salvation?

Why does all of Roman's 9 support this point?

If God died for the entire world tgan why hasnt the entire world been given the chance ag salvation? People cannot deny that there are people called and considered "doomed" in scripture. Like the entire world in Noah's time when they refused to go into Noah's arc and believe him that the flood was coming. God said that he regretted making them and that they will perish. Also, if they had hope, why did God seal the door shut? Did they honestly have the chance at salvation? What about Judas,Pilate, the Pharisees and the very soldiers that tortured and crucified Jesus making salvation possible for you and I? True Jesus said "forgive them" but in other instances of scripture they were called without hope so that the glory of God may be revealed.

Also, notice during his 3 days in sheol Jesus only rescued the "righteous" dead and left the unrighteous dead there. If he left them there, not only why does God call them doomed but why didnt he give them the chance at salvation if everyone has the chance of getting saved? Why did Isaiah prophecy that most of israel was not Israel and would perish? Was there hope of salvation for them? When Isaiah called them doomed to destruction?

God calls everyone to reason with him ... when we reason with him we become him ... or one spirit ... or are you then that Seed.

He started out with one, and in the end all will be summed up in one.

To be caught between two fruits of a tree only serves to reveal our nakedness ...

Bruce Leiter · May 12, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Why when Christ was ministering did he only refer to humanity in two categories Sheep (those who are under Gods grace and are written in the book of life) and Goats? (Those who are not written and suffer judgement for sinning against God)

Why did Jesus say in John 10 that he willingly is giving his life for the sheep? And that he will "give my life for the sheep?"

If everybody can freely come to Jesus why did Jesus plainly say that nobody can come to him unless God the Father unhardens their heart and grants it to them? John 6:44, 66.

I know John says in 1 john that Christ died for the sins of the whole world but there have been valid arguments around that for over 500 years now? Why are those arguments not considered or being considered as valid interpretations of scripture? And why is it the only verse in the bible that says that Jesus died for all?

If Christ died for the world why did he say during his famous prayer just before he was handed over to pilate in John 17:1-10 that he was not praying for the world but "for those you have given me for they are yours" and previously from that all he talks about in his prayer are those who God the Father has given him?

Why would God even have written a book of life from before the foundation of the world which contained the very sheep of God? If he didnt die for the sheep? To explain myself further what would be the point of him suffering for the sins of the whole world if only those written in his book inherit salvation?

Why does all of Roman's 9 support this point?

If God died for the entire world tgan why hasnt the entire world been given the chance ag salvation? People cannot deny that there are people called and considered "doomed" in scripture. Like the entire world in Noah's time when they refused to go into Noah's arc and believe him that the flood was coming. God said that he regretted making them and that they will perish. Also, if they had hope, why did God seal the door shut? Did they honestly have the chance at salvation? What about Judas,Pilate, the Pharisees and the very soldiers that tortured and crucified Jesus making salvation possible for you and I? True Jesus said "forgive them" but in other instances of scripture they were called without hope so that the glory of God may be revealed.

Also, notice during his 3 days in sheol Jesus only rescued the "righteous" dead and left the unrighteous dead there. If he left them there, not only why does God call them doomed but why didnt he give them the chance at salvation if everyone has the chance of getting saved? Why did Isaiah prophecy that most of israel was not Israel and would perish? Was there hope of salvation for them? When Isaiah called them doomed to destruction?

I became a Christian in a Baptist church, where the emphasis was on making a decision to believe in Christ, and attended Calvin College (now University), where the Reformed faith was taught. I had the same struggle that you have described. Christ's death is for the whole world and his salvation is given only to the sheep, as Matthew 25 says.

So what's the biblical truth? On the one hand, everyone is born dead, that is spiritually stillborn, to God (Ephesians 2:1-3) and alienated from him. So we're all on our way to hell at birth. On the other hand, God makes us alive through the new birth (Ephesians 2:4-9) by grace through God's free gift of faith. The inevitable result is that we will do God-prompted works (Ephesians 2:10).

The best explanation that I accepted was that God's salvation is sufficient for all people but efficient for only those whom God has chosen (Ephesians 1:3-14).

BobRyan · May 12, 2020

I posted this

BobRyan said:
Ilikecats said:

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world as stated in 1 John 2:2 but not everyone will be a believer. It’s God given faith that saves us which makes salvation dependent on God’s choice.

Click to expand...

God's choice is "all"

So when that fails and someone rejects the Gospel this is God's response

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

As we see in these many examples where the choice of the person is presented in relation to salvation

BobRyan said:

2 Cor 5: "WE BEG YOU on half of Christ be reconciled to God"

Rev 3: "20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. "

Rom 10:9 " if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not. But to as many as received Him ..."

Luke 7: 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

Matt 23: 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Click to expand...

And your response is

Ilikecats said:
Gods choice for salvation isn’t all. It’s whoever will believe in his son Jesus Christ as their lord and saviour. Does God choose for the unbeliever to be saved? Of course not then salvation would be unconditional. The condition is faith and it states many times in the bible that faith is not from oneself but a gift from God.

thanks for that comment ..

my statement "God's choice" about who should be saved is that "ALL" should be saved... He is not willing that any should perish. However the choice of the person is then made and the quotes I show there in my post - demonstrates how that person's choice can change God's "plan for them" to be fail instead of heaven.

As in the case of Luke 7 where it says that the Jewish leaders "rejected God's purpose for them" as I noted when I quoted this #17 in my post.

Hammster · May 12, 2020

BobRyan said:
my statement "God's choice" about who should be saved is that "ALL" should be saved...

For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
— Luke 19:10

If you are correct, then Jesus is an abject failure.

Sam81 · May 12, 2020

I hold to the doctrines of grace. The heart of man is entirely corrupted and opposed to God, and therefore, completely incapable of contributing to his own salvation.

From eternity past, God chose those whom He would redeem.

In His love for us, while we were still sinners, He provided an atonement sufficient for everyone, but limited to the sheep in it's effectiveness.

The elect cannot resist the grace of God, as there is no part of our salvation dependent on ourselves.

Those who are truly saved will, by the grace of God, persevere to the end, as there is no part of our salvation dependent upon ourselves.

BobRyan · May 12, 2020

Bruce Leiter said:
The best explanation that I accepted was that God's salvation is sufficient for all people but efficient for only those whom God has chosen (Ephesians 1:3-14).

Which makes it look like "arbitrary selection" rather than "God so loved the World" -- to an arminian.

BobRyan · May 12, 2020

I posted this

BobRyan said:
Ilikecats said:

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world as stated in 1 John 2:2 but not everyone will be a believer. It’s God given faith that saves us which makes salvation dependent on God’s choice.

Click to expand...

God's choice is "all"

So when that fails and someone rejects the Gospel this is God's response

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

As we see in these many examples where the choice of the person is presented in relation to salvation

BobRyan said:

2 Cor 5: "WE BEG YOU on half of Christ be reconciled to God"

Rev 3: "20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. "

Rom 10:9 " if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not. But to as many as received Him ..."

Luke 7: 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

Matt 23: 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Click to expand...

Which includes this
Luke 7: 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

And this

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

The many of Matt 7 lost... the few of Matt 7 saved

Your response:

Hammster said:
For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
— Luke 19:10

If you are correct, then Jesus is an abject failure.

Hammster · May 12, 2020

BobRyan said:
I posted this

Which includes this
Luke 7: 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

And this

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

The many of Matt 7 lost... the few of Matt 7 saved

Your response:

I know what my response what. I don’t know what you’re is, though.

bling · May 12, 2020

Hammster said:
I don’t. Why do you ask?

Your saying when Saul/Paul was persecuting Christians he was a sheep and not a goat.
Does that not mean: Saul/Paul was never "lost" or not a sheep?

BobRyan · May 12, 2020

Sam81 said:
The elect cannot resist the grace of God, as there is no part of our salvation dependent on ourselves.

Those who are truly saved will, by the grace of God, persevere to the end, as there is no part of our salvation dependent upon ourselves.

Which is not what we find in 1 Cor 6 or Romans 11

1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

All these sorts of warnings and reprimands always point to the danger of not listening to the warning and taking action.

How very different from "no matter what you may choose or wish - if God ordains it, you will persevere and if He does not, you will not persevere -- so just relax and enjoy the ride".

zoidar · May 12, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Why when Christ was ministering did he only refer to humanity in two categories Sheep (those who are under Gods grace and are written in the book of life) and Goats? (Those who are not written and suffer judgement for sinning against God)

Why did Jesus say in John 10 that he willingly is giving his life for the sheep? And that he will "give my life for the sheep?"

If everybody can freely come to Jesus why did Jesus plainly say that nobody can come to him unless God the Father unhardens their heart and grants it to them? John 6:44, 66.

I know John says in 1 john that Christ died for the sins of the whole world but there have been valid arguments around that for over 500 years now? Why are those arguments not considered or being considered as valid interpretations of scripture? And why is it the only verse in the bible that says that Jesus died for all?

If Christ died for the world why did he say during his famous prayer just before he was handed over to pilate in John 17:1-10 that he was not praying for the world but "for those you have given me for they are yours" and previously from that all he talks about in his prayer are those who God the Father has given him?

Why would God even have written a book of life from before the foundation of the world which contained the very sheep of God? If he didnt die for the sheep? To explain myself further what would be the point of him suffering for the sins of the whole world if only those written in his book inherit salvation?

Why does all of Roman's 9 support this point?

If God died for the entire world tgan why hasnt the entire world been given the chance ag salvation? People cannot deny that there are people called and considered "doomed" in scripture. Like the entire world in Noah's time when they refused to go into Noah's arc and believe him that the flood was coming. God said that he regretted making them and that they will perish. Also, if they had hope, why did God seal the door shut? Did they honestly have the chance at salvation? What about Judas,Pilate, the Pharisees and the very soldiers that tortured and crucified Jesus making salvation possible for you and I? True Jesus said "forgive them" but in other instances of scripture they were called without hope so that the glory of God may be revealed.

Also, notice during his 3 days in sheol Jesus only rescued the "righteous" dead and left the unrighteous dead there. If he left them there, not only why does God call them doomed but why didnt he give them the chance at salvation if everyone has the chance of getting saved? Why did Isaiah prophecy that most of israel was not Israel and would perish? Was there hope of salvation for them? When Isaiah called them doomed to destruction?

I came to think of one more thing. If Jesus didn't bear all sins in the world, how could he have power over all sin in the world? Was his victory on the cross a partial victory over evil or a complete victory over all works of the devil?

Hammster · May 12, 2020

bling said:
Your saying when Saul/Paul was persecuting Christians he was a sheep and not a goat.
Does that not mean: Saul/Paul was never "lost" or not a sheep?

He was lost sheep.

BobRyan · May 12, 2020

I posted this

BobRyan said:
Ilikecats said:

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world as stated in 1 John 2:2 but not everyone will be a believer. It’s God given faith that saves us which makes salvation dependent on God’s choice.

Click to expand...

God's choice is "all"

So when that fails and someone rejects the Gospel this is God's response

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

As we see in these many examples where the choice of the person is presented in relation to salvation

BobRyan said:

2 Cor 5: "WE BEG YOU on half of Christ be reconciled to God"

Rev 3: "20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. "

Rom 10:9 " if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not. But to as many as received Him ..."

Luke 7: 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

Matt 23: 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Click to expand...

Which includes this
Luke 7: 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

And this

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

The many of Matt 7 lost... the few of Matt 7 saved

Your response:

Hammster said:
For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
— Luke 19:10

If you are correct, then Jesus is an abject failure.

Hammster said:
I know what my response what. I don’t know what you’re is, though.

You may not have actually read what I posted.

I just enjoy reading the comparison. The text does not change simply because someone reads it and then does his/her own summation of the form "well then God is a big failure". You did not give a Bible objection.. just your summation which of course you are welcomed to all day long with no complaints from me.

Your argument is that a God who so loved the actual world should have robotized the world so not one is going to hell. His other choice in your scenario is that He never really cared about the rest therefore His outcome is 100% successful in what He wanted to have saved.

But in that sorta world He shoulda thought of that robotize-solution a long time ago - in fact one tiny little tweak of Lucifer's thought cycle and you have
no Lucifer to Satan transformation
No loss of 1/3 of the angels of heaven
No loss of mankind with 99.9999% of mankind killed at the flood
No horrific crimes on Earth
No death and torture of God the Son on the cross - so this is where God would save Himself a lot of grief.
No dark ages
No torture of women children and victims of all sorts.

the list is endless for "not" performing that one single clandestine robotized-tweak at the key moment. Your model already has God "in that sorta business" and once you put him in that role - then He clearly missed his golden opportunity at the very start to exercise that particular skill your POV seems to claim that he is using every day.

You are ready to claim that all of the saints were zapped-in just as God "selected" out the few to escape the eternal torture of hell and the many to get kicked into it.

As Luther said "if the Pope did have the power to get someone out of Purgatory he should have gotten everyone out".

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By contrast the bible texts I pointed out show that God enables choice even for the lost - supernaturally enables it. God's entire universe is founded on that prime directive for choice and free will. Even when man totally loses it by falling into sin and having a depraved nature - God supernaturally "draws all mankind unto him" John 12:32 thus enabling the choice for the gospel that depravity disabled.

And then the "choice" element we saw in scripture as I pointed it out - shines clear.. the same God who enables choice today - does so for all eternity.

If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

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Psalm 144:1

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loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

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A sinner saved by God's astounding grace and love

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Jesus is everything

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loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

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