Who Goes To Hell?

ClementofA · May 12, 2020

Der Alte said:
I have addressed all these out--of-context proof texts many times before

Where?

Der Alte said:
and I do not reply to long quotes from UR websites.

There were none in my post. Lots of Scripture, though.

Der Alte said:
If you can't express your beliefs in your own words don't waste my time.

A curious remark consider your many quotes from Jewish sources & fables.

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

Der Alte said:
Paul used the word "pollus"/"many" 71 times. He used the word "pas"/"all" 375 times When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas" not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used oi polloi/the many ten times where it clearly does not mean "all."
In one verse, Rom 12:4, Paul used “the many” and “all” in the same verse.
Romans 12:4, Romans 15:22, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13

Here's what you've never answered:

Der Alter said:
Lest the unwary be misled by heterodox doctrine.
Here it is being presented that "the many" in Rom 5:19 really means "all."
Paul used the word "pollus"/"many" 71 times. He used the word "pas"/"all" 375 times When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas" not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used "oi polloi"/"the many" ten times where it clearly does not mean "all."
In one verse Paul used both "all" and "pollus" in the same verse, Rom 12:4.
Romans 12:4, Romans 15:22, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13

XYZ said:
Yep did you notice the "MANY" does not mean the "ALL"? Again did you know that the "MANY" are the "JUST"?

The "many" (v.19a) are not the "just". They are those who "were constituted sinners" (v.19a) "through one offense" (v.19a), i.e. Adam's sin. That "many" is, therefore, all mankind with the exception of Christ. Hence "many", not "all" mankind.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Verse 19 uses the word "many" instead of "all" as in verse 18. Not all men have been "constituted sinners" (v.19), Christ being an obvious exception. Some would also include as exceptions those humans who have been this moment conceived, preborn babies, infants, etc. So, therefore, Paul says "many" in verse 19 rather than "all".

Rom.5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL MEN, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL MEN.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man THE MANY were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man THE MANY will be made righteous.

If Paul didn't wish to parallel both occurrences of "THE MANY" in verse 19, then he would have said "some" or "few" instead of "THE MANY" in the second occurrence. Clearly he was teaching by the parallel of two occurrences of "THE MANY" (v.19) that all those who "were made sinners" will "be made righteous".

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever [or annihilated for eternity].

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11). For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108...

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it." (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

ClementofA · May 12, 2020

thomas_t said:
I think this was rude. You can't expect anyone to read through maybe 10 pages.

It was nowhere near 10 pages. And readable in about 10 minutes.

And, again, nothing stopped you from responding to only the first part of it, which could be read in seconds. I do that myself at times in response to longish posts.

thomas_t said:
This is a discussion board. You can't discuss someone's stances when you know that for every argument you make, you might get 10 in return.

Ditto my comments above.

And FYI there are plenty of people here who read and respond to posts much longer than that.

Der Alte · May 12, 2020

ClementofA said:
Where?
There were none in my post. Lots of Scripture, though.
A curious remark consider your many quotes from Jewish sources & fables.

There is a BIG difference between copy/pasting someone else's canned argument which you did in that post and this one and quoting from a standard reference such as Greek/Hebrew lexicons, Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica, Talmud etc. which trashes your next comment. None of them are fables.

The "many" (v.19a) are not the "just". They are those who "were constituted sinners" (v.19a) "through one offense" (v.19a), i.e. Adam's sin. That "many" is, therefore, all mankind with the exception of Christ. Hence "many", not "all" mankind.
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Verse 19 uses the word "many" instead of "all" as in verse 18. Not all men have been "constituted sinners" (v.19), Christ being an obvious exception. Some would also include as exceptions those humans who have been this moment conceived, preborn babies, infants, etc. So, therefore, Paul says "many" in verse 19 rather than "all".
Rom.5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL MEN, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL MEN.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man THE MANY were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man THE MANY will be made righteous.
If Paul didn't wish to parallel both occurrences of "THE MANY" in verse 19, then he would have said "some" or "few" instead of "THE MANY" in the second occurrence. Clearly he was teaching by the parallel of two occurrences of "THE MANY" (v.19) that all those who "were made sinners" will "be made righteous".
Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.
“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever [or annihilated for eternity].
"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11). For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

I don't read or reply to copy/pastes.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

I don't read or reply to copy/pastes.

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108...

I don't read or reply to copy/pastes.

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

The BDAG entry does not say any of this. The "genitive" references are grammar terms. BDAG does not discuss grammar.

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."
"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it." (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

Two more copy/pastes. A commentary is just some "scholars" opinion. I could quote commentaries which say just the opposite.

BlessedCreator · May 12, 2020

agapelove said:
I think we should be careful adding to the work of Christ.

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

I don’t think a dead person can do anything to save themselves. If our salvation was dependent upon obedience then we cannot call it grace.

Why would be careful. They are the words of God. Without obeying God you will perish just as John 3:36 tells us. Obey and live or disobey and perish. It's that simple.

ClementofA · May 12, 2020

BlessedCreator said:
Unfortunately your teaching that all will be saved eventually is contrary to the doctrine of godliness. For if we are all gonna be saved eventually it promotes people to not care about their salvation.

The teaching of endless tortures or annihilation has led many to reject Christ, hence also reject salvation and godliness. OTOH the teaching of universalism has kept many others from following that path of rejecting Christ, salvation & godliness.

Furthermore, what kind of godliness results from a father threatening to chop off a child's fingers or torture them for years or burn them to death if they steal a cookie? Would that lead to true godliness from love in their hearts for the father (1 Jn.4:19)? Or merely a "form of godliness" (like the Pharisees had) which is due to abusive terrorizing & dread of unjust sadistic punishment? How can people truly, in their heart of hearts, respect anyone like that? For the most part they just try not to think about it or preach it anymore; out of sight, out of mind. If they took it seriously it would lead many more to go crazy than already have been driven to the nuthouse by it, or to question, research and abandon the notion as nonsense & unbiblical.

BlessedCreator said:
Also I think if you study all the verses regarding the eternal punishment and eternal life of the wicked/saints you'll find that it indeed signifies that both are unending.

I've studied the Bible for decades & never found a verse with "eternal punishment".

agapelove · May 12, 2020

BlessedCreator said:
Why would be careful. They are the words of God. Without obeying God you will perish just as John 3:36 tells us. Obey and live or disobey and perish. It's that simple.

Obedience is not the cause of your salvation. It is the outworking of your salvation.

FineLinen · May 12, 2020

BlessedCreator said:
Why would be careful. They are the words of God. Without obeying God you will perish just as John 3:36 tells us. Obey and live or disobey and perish. It's that simple.

It is a wonderful thing to know the God of glory is so simple. (lol)

In the first place faith comes by hearing. Secondly, repentance is granted. Until the Spirit of the Lord opens your poor blind eyes & deaf ears & grants you repentance, you will simply be in a quagmire of lostness.

ClementofA · May 12, 2020

Der Alte said:
There is a BIG difference between copy/pasting someone else's canned argument which you did in that post and this one and quoting from a standard reference such as Greek/Hebrew lexicons, Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica, Talmud etc.

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

What's your problem with a "canned argument":

"Canned arguments/ blocks/briefs- prepared arguments applied to a specific contention or argument or case."

Evidently you post them here often.

Der Alte said:
None of them are fables.

Really? Remember this:

Der Alter said:
The book of Enoch and Judith and others not in the Christian canon are considered scripture by the Jews.

There's no Book of Enoch or Judith listed here:
The 24 Books of the Hebrew Bible • Torah.org

Judith an "Apocryphal book".
JUDITH, BOOK OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com

"Thus forms of the Books of Judith, Maccabees and Ben Sira, as well as parts of Wisdom of Solomon were familiar to Jewish scholars. But these works never achieved wide acceptance in Judaism and remained, to a greater or lesser extent, curiosities."
The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha

"The oldest known Jewish work not included in the Bible is the Book of Enoch."
The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha

"The Book of Enoch...contradicts scripture, lies about biblical cosmology...and perverts God's mercy and plan of salvation" The Book of Enoch Debunked

"Although it was likely written by a Jewish person during the Second Temple Period, there is no evidence that the Book of Judith was ever considered authoritative or a candidate for canonicity by any Jewish group."

"The Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible does not contain it, nor was it found among the Dead Sea Scrolls or referred to in any early Rabbinic literature."
Sefer Yehudit - AbeBooks

"The content of the books of the Apocrypha is below that of canonical Scripture. Several of the books including Judith, Tobit, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon read like ***LEGENDS***. When one reads these books alongside canonical Scripture the differences become obvious." (emphasis, mine) Why Were the Books of the Old Testament Apocrypha Rejected as Holy Scripture by the Protestants?

Speaking of legends:

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Der Alte said:
The BDAG entry does not say any of this. The "genitive" references are grammar terms. BDAG does not discuss grammar.

You didn't understand what was posted, namely:

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

Der Alte said:
Two more copy/pastes.

What gives you that idea?

Der Alte said:
A commentary is just some "scholars" opinion. I could quote commentaries which say just the opposite.

Feel free to see if you can find any that refute the opinion posted.

Der Alte · May 12, 2020

ClementofA said:
What's your problem with a "canned argument":
"Canned arguments/ blocks/briefs- prepared arguments applied to a specific contention or argument or case."

If it is another's work and you post it as your own it is dishonest. I don't intend to read let alone respond to every UR writer you decide to quote. If you can't express your own views you should not be here.

Evidently you post them here often.

Wrong. I never quote an argument written by another person. I only ever quote standard references. Subject encyclopedias. lexicons, grammars etc.

There's no Book of Enoch or Judith listed here:
The 24 Books of the Hebrew Bible • Torah.org
Judith an "Apocryphal book".
JUDITH, BOOK OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com
"Thus forms of the Books of Judith, Maccabees and Ben Sira, as well as parts of Wisdom of Solomon were familiar to Jewish scholars. But these works never achieved wide acceptance in Judaism and remained, to a greater or lesser extent, curiosities."
The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha
"The oldest known Jewish work not included in the Bible is the Book of Enoch."
The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha
"The Book of Enoch...contradicts scripture, lies about biblical cosmology...and perverts God's mercy and plan of salvation" The Book of Enoch Debunked
"Although it was likely written by a Jewish person during the Second Temple Period, there is no evidence that the Book of Judith was ever considered authoritative or a candidate for canonicity by any Jewish group."
"The Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible does not contain it, nor was it found among the Dead Sea Scrolls or referred to in any early Rabbinic literature."
Sefer Yehudit - AbeBooks
"The content of the books of the Apocrypha is below that of canonical Scripture. Several of the books including Judith, Tobit, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon read like ***LEGENDS***. When one reads these books alongside canonical Scripture the differences become obvious." (emphasis, mine)

Why Were the Books of the Old Testament Apocrypha Rejected as Holy Scripture by the Protestants?

Wrong! Rubbish! Nonsense! Irrelevant. None of this proves anything about what I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud.
I quoted from Jewish sources which showed what Jewish leaders believed before and during the time of Jesus.
Enoch and Judith were included in the LXX. See link. Now try to refute or argue with it .'
The Septuagint Bible Online

You didn't understand what was posted, namely:

I understood perfectly. I have BDAG

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

This is a copy/paste from an unidentified source. In red not in BDAG. Cf. BDF 92 (S166) refers to either a footnote or a source that was identified elsewhere in the source which was plagiarized without identification.
ETA: This plagiarized quote is a footnote from Paul's Letter to the Romans pg. 229 Arland J. Hultgren

What gives you that idea?

I just showed you.

Feel free to see if you can find any that refute the opinion posted.

I don't have the time or inclination to respond to every ridiculous opinion of every heterodox group who posts here.

Saint Steven · May 12, 2020

BlessedCreator said:
We're saved by a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3:21). Which allows us to trust (have faith) in Him. Only they that obey God can have a good conscience toward Him.

Also Jesus Himself tells us He will cast our the unprofitable servant in Matthew 25:30.

So saved by our own efforts? Yes our own effort to obey God. Obeying God is a choice we must all make.

... not by works, so that no one can boast. - Ephesians 2:9

Saint Steven said: ↑
Saved by your own efforts then?

BlessedCreator · May 12, 2020

Saint Steven said:
... not by works, so that no one can boast. - Ephesians 2:9

Saint Steven said: ↑
Saved by your own efforts then?

Is doing what commands us considered our own works or His?

Does not scripture say "faith without works is dead"?

BlessedCreator · May 12, 2020

ClementofA said:
The teaching of endless tortures or annihilation has led many to reject Christ, hence also reject salvation and godliness. OTOH the teaching of universalism has kept many others from following that path of rejecting Christ, salvation & godliness.

Furthermore, what kind of godliness results from a father threatening to chop off a child's fingers or torture them for years or burn them to death if they steal a cookie? Would that lead to true godliness from love in their hearts for the father (1 Jn.4:19)? Or merely a "form of godliness" (like the Pharisees had) which is due to abusive terrorizing & dread of unjust sadistic punishment? How can people truly, in their heart of hearts, respect anyone like that? For the most part they just try not to think about it or preach it anymore; out of sight, out of mind. If they took it seriously it would lead many more to go crazy than already have been driven to the nuthouse by it, or to question, research and abandon the notion as nonsense & unbiblical.

I've studied the Bible for decades & never found a verse with "eternal punishment".

That is what God teaches us He will do, he will separate His sheep on one side, the goats on the other, one will receive an eternal blessing, the other an eternal curse. He will cast all the wicked into outer darkness. The tortures of the damned are from themselves, not from God. Yes God will not make hell a pleasant place to be. For why should the wicked and vile have a home in a pleasant place. But the actual pains and terrors and true miseries will be brought upon themselves by themselves. Demons torturing humans as far as I have witnessed.

There will be two types people on judgment day. One group being those that obey God and do His will, the other being those that live contrary to God and His commandments and do their own will.

They that love God and fear Him and obey Him will enter His kingdom.

The other group that love to live how they want and do their own wills will all go to to a place where they can continue to live like that. But it's not just humans down there, you have extremely powerful and intelligent fallen angels (demons) in that place as well who like to do what they want, and they love nothing more than to cause extreme pain and suffering.

If people have rejected God because they dont want to fear Him, that's not His fault. He is merciful, He let's the wicked do what they want in this life and after. Why should He protect them from themselves (in hell) if they want to live wickedly? If you like to do evil and live contrary to God you can do so hereafter as well, but you're not gonna be the only wicked being there.

I fear God and I also love God very much. He Has forgiven my vile sins and has been the only true friend I have ever had and can depend on. He has taken my shame and guilt and taught me the ways of life and lifted up my countenance. But I also fear Him because I know that nobody us saved until the day of judgment. Only those that endure to the end in obedience unto Him will be saved. Therefore I will continue to obey Him, not doing what I want but He wants, so I can have eternal joy and blessings after this short life of misery and self denial. I have respect of the reward.

You've never found a verse signifying that the states of the damned and saved will be forever, eternal, unending, always?
Check this out: Is "for ever and ever" eternal?

As much as I want everyone to be saved from hell, as far as we know right now God is not going to let them out. But that does not mean that God does not have it in His eternal plans to at one point grant mercy to the wicked. But right now, there is no sign that that is in His plans. And why would He want to tell us that if that were in His plans. The effect of such information would only lead more souls to hell if we all knew we would all be saved one day.

FineLinen · May 13, 2020

BlessedCreator said:
That is what God teaches us He will do, he will separate His sheep on one side, the goats on the other, one will receive an eternal blessing, the other an eternal curse. He will cast all the wicked into outer darkness. The tortures of the damned are from themselves, not from God.

Good grief! ! ! Wake up: the sheep are His, the goats are His. Both are clean animals, not one clean the other unclean.

The foundation for everlasting punishment =

I was hungry and you gave Me no meat.
I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink:
I was a stranger and you took Me not in.
I was naked and you did not clothe Me.
I was in prison and you did not visit Me.

Upon this foundation rests the doctrine of “everlasting punishment”, the cornerstone text for the same.

ClementofA · May 13, 2020

Der Alte said:
If it is another's work and you post it as your own it is dishonest.

You shouldn't do that. Did you?

BTW that's called plagiarism.

Der Alte said:
If you can't express your own views you should not be here.

I'm quite sure i express my own views very often. And with the support of many knowledgeable experts & excellent commentaries. And of course lots of Scripture.

Der Alte said:
Wrong! Rubbish! Nonsense! Irrelevant. None of this proves anything about what I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud.
I quoted from Jewish sources which showed what Jewish leaders believed before and during the time of Jesus.
Enoch and Judith were included in the LXX. See link. Now try to refute or argue with it .'
The Septuagint Bible Online

Did you see any Book of Enoch listed there? Or either of them in the Jewish canon? Do you consider them Scripture & have them in your favorite Bible version that you read?

Did you realize you called my quote rubbish which quotes the Jewish Encyclopedia which you've called an irrefutable source?

Der Alte said:
I understood perfectly. I have BDAG

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."
This is a copy/paste from an unidentified source.

It's from the source i identified in my post & copied out from the same source sitting on my bookshelf.

Der Alte said:
In red not in BDAG.

Of coure the red is not BDAG. You erroneously assumed that it was being alleged that it is from BDAG.

Der Alte said:
Cf. BDF 92 (S166) refers to either a footnote or a source that was identified elsewhere in the source which was plagiarized without identification.

Der Alte said:
ETA: This plagiarized quote is a footnote from Paul's Letter to the Romans pg. 229 Arland J. Hultgren

If you had read my original post (#361 cf #363) it already identified the source when i quoted all this & more:

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108...

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it." (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

Hopefully that clears up your confusion.

thomas_t · May 13, 2020

ClementofA said:
It was nowhere near 10 pages. And readable in about 10 minutes.

read #337. This is ten days of reading for me.
And if I respond to part of your post... I might get 10 pages in return and I don't want to opt out of the debate only then, so I don't discuss this topic with you to begin with.
I hope this is fine. Nothing against you personally, though.
Maybe (part of) what you say is reasonable.

Saint Steven · May 13, 2020

BlessedCreator said:
Is doing what commands us considered our own works or His?

Does not scripture say "faith without works is dead"?

Sounds like you have the cart before the horse. @agapelove said it best.
"Obedience is not the cause of your salvation. It is the outworking of your salvation." - agapelove

Furthermore, what commands are you referring to? Written commands, or commands in real time, like the ones Jesus was obeying?

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

thomas_t · May 13, 2020

Saint Steven said:
The UNITY is not in the opinions of humankind, it is unity of all created things in heaven and on earth. The universal reconciliation of ALL things.

Unity - not reconciliation. Says Bible.
unity of opinon is important though.
There are two manners to read your passage:
1.)it is unity of {all created things in heaven and on earth}.
2.){it is unity of all created things} in heaven and on earth.
You propose the second one: all created things being sent to heaven and (New) earth, you seem to be suggesting.
I propose the first option: for all things in heaven and on earth unity. All else ends up in hades/sheol or whatever you call that. It literally says unity for all things under Christ. In my opinion, some reject Christ's invitation.

Now that we have been discussing for a while, let me ask you a question.
There are people who destroy the earth. They dump waste into the oceans, birds come and "eat" it dying from starvation despite of their stomachs being full.
You want to grant all these people full access to New Earth so they can kill everything again?

Saint Steven · May 13, 2020

thomas_t said:
Now that we have been discussing for a while, let me ask you a question.
There are people who destroy the earth. They dump waste into the oceans, birds come and "eat" it dying from starvation despite of their stomachs being full.
You want to grant all these people full access to New Earth so they can kill everything again?

UR isn't a get-out-of-hell-free card. In fact we will ALL be salted with fire.

Those ocean-polluters will need to be corrected before they go to heaven.

Romans 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice,
but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself
will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought
into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Saint Steven · May 13, 2020

thomas_t said:
Unity - not reconciliation. Says Bible.
unity of opinon is important though.
There are two manners to read your passage:
1.)it is unity of {all created things in heaven and on earth}.
2.){it is unity of all created things} in heaven and on earth.
You propose the second one: all created things being sent to heaven and (New) earth, you seem to be suggesting.
I propose the first option: for all things in heaven and on earth unity. All else ends up in hades/sheol or whatever you call that. It literally says unity for all things under Christ. In my opinion, some reject Christ's invitation.

Unity means the restoration or renewal of all things.

Matt 19:28:
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Der Alte · May 13, 2020

Saint Steven said:
UR isn't a get-out-of-hell-free card. In fact we will ALL be salted with fire.
Those ocean-polluters will need to be corrected before they go to heaven.
Romans 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice,
but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself
will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought
into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

UR-ites quote Mar 9:49, out-of-context, as if it is concrete proof that UR is true.

Mark 9:42-50
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

First vs. 42 begins with a warning of a fate worse than death so it hardly follows that in vs. 49 Jesus is saying all mankind will be saved, righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death.
Then Jesus describes a place where the fire is not quenched and the worm of each person in that place never dies.
Then Jesus states "every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." What does that mean?

Ezekiel 43:25
25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
Leviticus 2:13
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.

Every offering must be without blemish before they are salted, they are not made "without blemish" by the fire/salt. So vs. 49 refers to followers of Jesus not all mankind.

49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Who Goes To Hell?

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Salvation=Obedience

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Salvation=Obedience

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