If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

I think what Jesus meant by "world" is the old world that is pure, undefiled by humanity. He wanted to save that (restored to its pure, undefiled state.

This is the world originally created by God. The world where animals don't eat each other and everything is free (I bet the capitalists is utterly hating that part right now)

Neostarwcc said:

Why when Christ was ministering did he only refer to humanity in two categories Sheep (those who are under Gods grace and are written in the book of life) and Goats? (Those who are not written and suffer judgement for sinning against God)

Why did Jesus say in John 10 that he willingly is giving his life for the sheep? And that he will "give my life for the sheep?"

If everybody can freely come to Jesus why did Jesus plainly say that nobody can come to him unless God the Father unhardens their heart and grants it to them? John 6:44, 66.

I know John says in 1 john that Christ died for the sins of the whole world but there have been valid arguments around that for over 500 years now? Why are those arguments not considered or being considered as valid interpretations of scripture? And why is it the only verse in the bible that says that Jesus died for all?

If Christ died for the world why did he say during his famous prayer just before he was handed over to pilate in John 17:1-10 that he was not praying for the world but "for those you have given me for they are yours" and previously from that all he talks about in his prayer are those who God the Father has given him?

Why would God even have written a book of life from before the foundation of the world which contained the very sheep of God? If he didnt die for the sheep? To explain myself further what would be the point of him suffering for the sins of the whole world if only those written in his book inherit salvation?


Why does all of Roman's 9 support this point?

If God died for the entire world tgan why hasnt the entire world been given the chance ag salvation? People cannot deny that there are people called and considered "doomed" in scripture. Like the entire world in Noah's time when they refused to go into Noah's arc and believe him that the flood was coming. God said that he regretted making them and that they will perish. Also, if they had hope, why did God seal the door shut? Did they honestly have the chance at salvation? What about Judas,Pilate, the Pharisees and the very soldiers that tortured and crucified Jesus making salvation possible for you and I? True Jesus said "forgive them" but in other instances of scripture they were called without hope so that the glory of God may be revealed.

Also, notice during his 3 days in sheol Jesus only rescued the "righteous" dead and left the unrighteous dead there. If he left them there, not only why does God call them doomed but why didnt he give them the chance at salvation if everyone has the chance of getting saved? Why did Isaiah prophecy that most of israel was not Israel and would perish? Was there hope of salvation for them? When Isaiah called them doomed to destruction?

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It would help you a lot if you read the Bible without challenging what is written. You must approach God with an open heart and from faith. Study the critical behavior of the Pharisees and ask yourself if you want to be like them or be a person of faith and trust.

While "world" can be used in its natural sense John frequently employs the use of "world" in the sense of meaning that which is at enmity with God in general and Christ in particular.

When we take this meaning we have to see that God "gave" His only begotten Son, the Christ...

God "gave" the gift of His Son, in order to redeem those at enmity with Him.

The Bible is clear as to why this gift was necessary, Romans 5:10, Colossians 1:21, Romans 3:11

there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

We are all enemies of God/at emnity with God until such time as we become the recipients of God's Grace through His Son Jesus Christ.

This verse speaks of the why, God had to provide a means of salvation (because we were at emnity with God) through Christ and that He did so out of His deep love for "us", i.e. those He chooses to reconcile to Himself.

Therefore, we see "world" in the sense of understanding that it's meaning the gift is necessary for Gods people the "sheep", because there is no other means of reconciliation to Him, because we likewise fall into the realm of the world at emnity with God, so out of God's deep love, He provides this beautiful gift.

Therefore it does not mean all people... just that all people fall within the realm of those who are enemies of God - even God's people. Therefore out of a deep love a sacrifice for sin had to be given.

You could try and include all people ever born, but as we know this isn't true we have to be discerning to discover what is true about the verse... and what is true is that even the most righteous man needs Christ as Savior in order to stand before a Holy God because even the most righteous man falls far short....so short as to be able to be called enemies of God, dead in our sins until we are plucked out of them through the supernatural working of God displayed in the Sacrifice.

Neostarwcc said:

Why did Jesus say in John 10 that he willingly is giving his life for the sheep? And that he will "give my life for the sheep?"

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It is confusing. Jesus's rightousness can deal with the sins of the whole world many times over.
He knows those who will be saved, but because he knew us and because he wants us to love everyone. He does not tell us who will e saved, we have to preach to, to care fore every person.

Neostarwcc said:

Why when Christ was ministering did he only refer to humanity in two categories Sheep (those who are under Gods grace and are written in the book of life) and Goats? (Those who are not written and suffer judgement for sinning against God)

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Was Saul/Paul a sheep when he was persecuting and killing Christians? Where we not all lost at some time (goats)? We know Christ was both the shepherd and a lamb, so can we go from being a goat to being a sheep?

Neostarwcc said:

Why did Jesus say in John 10 that he willingly is giving his life for the sheep? And that he will "give my life for the sheep?"

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Jesus did give His life for His sheep, but that does not mean He did not also give His life for all those who will not be His sheep, out of Love for them? Did Christ not lay down His Life for those who hated Him?

Neostarwcc said:

If everybody can freely come to Jesus why did Jesus plainly say that nobody can come to him unless God the Father unhardens their heart and grants it to them? John 6:44, 66.

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John 6 does not talk about, God “unhardening” anyone’s heart, but we are told “Everyone who has heard the Father” so it is up to them to hear and accept. As we know from the banquet parables, everyone who went to the party heard and accepted the invitation, but some refused the invitation, so they turned a deaf ear to the invitation.

Neostarwcc said:

I know John says in 1 john that Christ died for the sins of the whole world but there have been valid arguments around that for over 500 years now? Why are those arguments not considered or being considered as valid interpretations of scripture? And why is it the only verse in the bible that says that Jesus died for all?

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Some people at times have allowed their personal doctrine to force an interpretation of scripture, when they needed to just allow scripture to develop their doctrine.

There are verses which convey the same idea using: all, whosoever, world, and everyone with the context suggesting the whole world.

Neostarwcc said:

If Christ died for the world why did he say during his famous prayer just before he was handed over to pilate in John 17:1-10 that he was not praying for the world but "for those you have given me for they are yours" and previously from that all he talks about in his prayer are those who God the Father has given him?

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John 17: 2 “For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.” But who has God given Christ other then those who have accepted God’s charity?

You have to keep the verse in context: John 17:20 … I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message”. Jesus did not pray for those God softened the hearts of, but for all those who believe the message.

Neostarwcc said:

Why would God even have written a book of life from before the foundation of the world which contained the very sheep of God? If he didnt die for the sheep? To explain myself further what would be the point of him suffering for the sins of the whole world if only those written in his book inherit salvation?

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God and Christ out of an unbelievable huge Love for all humans will do all They can to help humans. If Christ did not go to the cross for all the “lost”, then those who refuse to accept God’s Love would have a reason not to accept, since God did not Love them enough.

Neostarwcc said:

Why does all of Roman's 9 support this point?

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Romans 9 is not talking about vessels made for hell and vessels made for heaven.

Briefly Ro. 9:

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.



The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!



This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).



Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?



If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?



This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.



Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”



The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).



How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.



Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.



Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!



The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.



If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.

Neostarwcc said:

Why when Christ was ministering did he only refer to humanity in two categories Sheep (those who are under Gods grace and are written in the book of life) and Goats? (Those who are not written and suffer judgement for sinning against God)

Why did Jesus say in John 10 that he willingly is giving his life for the sheep? And that he will "give my life for the sheep?"

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Because His sheep are included in "the whole world"

"He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

"God so loved the WORLD that he gave" John 3:16

"this life I give for the WORLD is my flesh" John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

Neostarwcc said:

If everybody can freely come to Jesus why did Jesus plainly say that nobody can come to him unless God the Father unhardens their heart and grants it to them? John 6:44, 66.

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the actual text uses "draw" not "unharden"

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

here is another text using "draw"

John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL mankind unto Me"

Hammster said:

Yes.

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So, where do you find: "persecuting Christians a description of God's sheep.

Hammster said:

Good. All will be raised on the last day.

oh...wait.

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I think we have had this discussion a few times before - but the answer is that the texts are factual - Christ died for "for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" 1 John 2:2 which is true without the need for any "downsizing" or "redefining down".

"God so loved the world" John 3:16 ... "yes really" - without the need for any "downsizing" or "redefining down".

"God sent His Son to be the savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4:14 . "yes really". - without the need for any "downsizing" or "redefining down".

"God is not willing for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2 Peter 3 "yes really". - without the need for any "downsizing" or "redefining down".

"come unto ME ALL who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest" Matt 11 "yes really". - without the need for any "downsizing" or "redefining down".

The reason that does not translate to universalism (as we have said so many times before) is that the "Atonement" doctrine that God defines in places like Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" requires not ONLY the work of Christ as the "sin offering" but also the high priestly work of Christ (which is "the main point" according to Hebrews 8:1-5) as we see in Hebrews 4 and 9 where He is our high priest in heaven making intercession for those who choose to accept the Gospel and pray for forgiveness.

We have already been through that before - but what I don't remember is -- what is your response to that conversation?

Hammster said:

You add “choose”. That’s where synergists fail. “Choose” is nowhere in John 6 or 12.

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2 Cor 5: "WE BEG YOU on half of Christ be reconciled to God"

Rev 3: "20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. "

Rom 10:9 " if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not. But to as many as received Him ..."

Luke 7: 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

Matt 23: 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Jesus suffered and died for the sins of the world, but that didn't give everyone in the world a blank check.

Some will be saved, thanks to His death, while others who have the chance for eternal life--which wasn't open to them before--still will not.

BobRyan said:

I think we have had this discussion a few times before - but the answer is that the texts are factual - Christ died for "for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" 1 John 2:2 which is true without the need for any "downsizing" or "redefining down".

"God so loved the world" John 3:16 ... "yes really" - without the need for any "downsizing" or "redefining down".

"God sent His Son to be the savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4:14 . "yes really". - without the need for any "downsizing" or "redefining down".

"God is not willing for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2 Peter 3 "yes really". - without the need for any "downsizing" or "redefining down".

"come unto ME ALL who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest" Matt 11 "yes really". - without the need for any "downsizing" or "redefining down".

The reason that does not translate to universalism (as we have said so many times before) is that the "Atonement" doctrine that God defines in places like Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" requires not ONLY the work of Christ as the "sin offering" but also the high priestly work of Christ (which is "the main point" according to Hebrews 8:1-5) as we see in Hebrews 4 and 9 where He is our high priest in heaven making intercession for those who choose to accept the Gospel and pray for forgiveness.

We have already been through that before - but what I don't remember is -- what is your response to that conversation?

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Good Day, Bob

Where do you see this statement in either Hebrews 4, or 9?

He is our high priest in heaven making intercession for those who choose to accept the Gospel and pray for forgiveness.

What we do have in Hebrews 9 is a clear statement of the work of Christ as a Priest (in being offered) for the many to put away sin, not for every one with out distinction..

Heb 9:28 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

In Him,

Bill