Is the weekly Sabbath an eternal moral law for humanity?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 43.8%
  • No

    Votes: 9 56.3%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I can't answer because I need to explain my position

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    16
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BobRyan

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Hi, I would like to once again challenge those Christians who keep a weekly Sabbath.

For clarification - is this a challenge to Christians that keep the Bible Sabbath as Saturday as well as to all Sunday keeping Christians that affirm all TEN of the Ten commandments as being included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant??

So then your challenge is also to those who agree with the following sources where they affirm the Bible detail that the TEN (all TEN) are included in the moral law of God binding on all mankind since Eden.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

Is that your intent?

To show the Sabbath is a moral obligation for all Sabbath keepers generally argue the Ten Commandments embody the principles of morality. They draw on ideas such as, “These Ten were written with the finger of God”

I take that as "a yes" from your OP.

from: The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (with Modern Features)
Chapter 19. Of the Law of God
1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart, and a particular precept of not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; 1 by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; 2 promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it. 3

1. Genesis 1:27; Ecclesiastes 7:292. Romans 10:5
3. Galatians 3:10, 12
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall, 4 and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables, the four first containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man. 5

4. Romans 2:14-15
5. Deuteronomy 10:4
3. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; 6 and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties, 7 all which ceremonial laws being appointed only to the time of reformation, are, by Jesus Christ the true Messiah and only law-giver, who was furnished with power from the Father for that end abrogated and taken away. 8

6. Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:177. 1 Corinthians 5:7
8. Colossians 2:14,16-17; Ephesians 2:14,16
4. To them also he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any now by virtue of that institution; their general equity only being of modern use. 9

9. 1 Corinthians 9:8-10
5. The moral law does for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, 10 and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; 11 neither does Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation. 12

10. Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-1211. James 2:10, 11
12. Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:31
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, 13 yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; 14 together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise show them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace. 15

13. Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16; Romans 8:1, 10:414. Romans 3:20, 7:7, etc.
15. Romans 6:12-14; 1 Peter 3:8-13

7. Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, 16 the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done. 17

16. Galatians 3:2117. Ezekiel 36:27

Which is pretty much the same reading as we find in the Westminster Confession of Faith section 19 , and is the same argument D.L. Moody makes for the Sabbath in Eden etc.

Similarly Sabbath keepers believe because nine of the Ten commandments remain unchangeable, the Sabbath law also remains unchangeable. In other words because it is listed with moral laws, it must be moral.

Just to clarify terms -- are you including all the Sunday keeping groups I have just listed as "Sabbath keepers" for the sake of your topic?

So then the "New Covenant" is the one where the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - which includes the WORD of God spoken at Sinai to Israel and "written on stone" -- is written on heart and mind under the NEW Covenant.

As I have pointed out many times before.
#243
#207

These ten are the ones where the "first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment as Paul points out in Eph 6:1-2

As I have pointed out many times before.

===========================

As for the Sabbath for all eternity for all the saints in the NEW Earth -

"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 -- the scope for Sabbath even in the OT.

Isaiah 56:6-8 even gentiles were singled out in the OT for Sabbath blessing if they chose not to profane "the Sabbath of the LORD thy God"
 
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BobRyan

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On the contrary, Deuteronomy 27 describes plenty of immoral examples not addressed by the Ten such as bribes, sexual relations with family and animals

I always use the term "included" - the TEN are "included" in the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers in Jer 31:31-34. The objection on this area of the board seems to always come in the form of objecting to one of the TEN if not to the TEN themselves.
 
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BobRyan

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What other differences do you teach are between Old Covenant and New Covenant other than Jesus replacing Moses?

In the broadest sense the "Old Covenant" is of the form "obey and live" this was the covenant that Adam and Eve were under as sinless beings. Thy became "lost" when they sinned.

It is the covenant under which all mankind is condemned as sinners "every mouth" and "all the world" Rom 3:19-20

By contrast the NEW Covenant is the New Birth and "saved by grace through faith" the "ONE Gospel" that was preached to Abraham Gal 3:8 - with the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers written on heart and mind.

Everyone lost is lost under the "obey and live" rule of the Old Covenant.
Everyone saved - is saved under the "new Creation, saved by grace" condition of the New Covenant.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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I would like to once again challenge those Christians who keep a weekly Sabbath.

Would you be so kind as to answer the questions at the end of this post for us, so we know where you are coming from in your opposition of the fourth commandment of GOD?

Pope demands Sunday to be a day of Rest!!! - Forerunner Chronicles

"In closing, take a look this of inquiry to Pope Pious XII, and its response from the editor of the CATHOLIC EXTENSION MAGAZINE:

Thomaston, Georgia
May 22, 1954

Pope Pius XII
Rome, Italy

Dear Sir;
Is the accusation true, that Protestants accuse you of? They say you
changed the Seventh Day Sabbath to the, so-called, Christian Sunday:
Identical with the First Day of the week. If so, when did you make the
change, and by what authority?

Yours very truely,
J. L. Day

THE CATHOLIC EXTENSION MAGAZINE
180 Wabash Ave., Chicago, Illinois
(Under the Blessing of Pop Pius XII)
Dear sir:
Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:

(1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith
and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath. The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe Sunday, stultifies them in the eyes of every thinking man.

(2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith.
Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church, as a rule to guide us. We say, this Church instituted by Christ, to teach and guide men through life, has the right to change the Ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, “yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other laws, for instance, the Friday Abstinence, the unmarried priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the regulation of Catholic marriages, and a thousand other laws.

(3) We also say that of all Protestants, the Seventh-day Adventists are the only group that reason correctly and are consistent with their
teachings. It is always somewhat laughable to see the Protestant Churches, in pulpit and legislature, demand the observance of Sundays of which there is nothing in the Bible.

With best wishes
Peter R. Tramer, Editor'

Questions
1) Do you accept the Bible as the only rule of faith and religion?

2) Do you Agree with this statement "We say, this Church instituted by Christ, to teach and guide men through life, has the right to change the Ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, “yes, the Church made this change, made this law," ?

3) do you agree with this statement "demand the observance of Sundays of which there is nothing in the Bible."(to support it)?

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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in my above post in the article copied and pasted this word is used by the editor. I thought it would be appropriate to post its definition.

stultifies
stul·ti·fy
(stŭl′tə-fī′)
tr.v. stul·ti·fied, stul·ti·fy·ing, stul·ti·fies
1.
To cause to lose interest or feel dull and not alert: The audience was stultified by the speaker's unchanging monotone.
2. To render useless or ineffectual: "[She believed] that the requirements of conventional academic life can stultify imagination, stifle enthusiasm and deaden prose style" (Robert K. Massie).
3. To cause to appear stupid, inconsistent, or ridiculous: "Should he now stultify himself in all those quarrels by admitting he had been cruel, unjust, and needlessly jealous?" (Anthony Trollope).
4. Law To claim incapacity as setting aside or preventing enforcement of (a deed or contract).
 
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BobRyan

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Would you be so kind as to answer the questions at the end of this post for us, so we know where you are coming from in your opposition of the fourth commandment of GOD?

Pope demands Sunday to be a day of Rest!!! - Forerunner Chronicles

"In closing, take a look this of inquiry to Pope Pious XII, and its response from the editor of the CATHOLIC EXTENSION MAGAZINE:

Thomaston, Georgia
May 22, 1954

Pope Pius XII
Rome, Italy

Dear Sir;
Is the accusation true, that Protestants accuse you of? They say you
changed the Seventh Day Sabbath to the, so-called, Christian Sunday:
Identical with the First Day of the week. If so, when did you make the
change, and by what authority?

Yours very truely,
J. L. Day

THE CATHOLIC EXTENSION MAGAZINE
180 Wabash Ave., Chicago, Illinois
(Under the Blessing of Pop Pius XII)
Dear sir:
Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:

(1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith
and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath. The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe Sunday, stultifies them in the eyes of every thinking man.

(2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith.
Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church, as a rule to guide us. We say, this Church instituted by Christ, to teach and guide men through life, has the right to change the Ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, “yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other laws, for instance, the Friday Abstinence, the unmarried priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the regulation of Catholic marriages, and a thousand other laws.

(3) We also say that of all Protestants, the Seventh-day Adventists are the only group that reason correctly and are consistent with their
teachings. It is always somewhat laughable to see the Protestant Churches, in pulpit and legislature, demand the observance of Sundays of which there is nothing in the Bible.

With best wishes
Peter R. Tramer, Editor'

Questions
1) Do you accept the Bible as the only rule of faith and religion?

2) Do you Agree with this statement "We say, this Church instituted by Christ, to teach and guide men through life, has the right to change the Ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, “yes, the Church made this change, made this law," ?

3) do you agree with this statement "demand the observance of Sundays of which there is nothing in the Bible."(to support it)?

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

A claim to change the Sabbath is not a claim to "delete the Sabbath" or a claim that "The Sabbath was merely ceremonial -- we left it as-is since we are not keeping ceremonial laws".

So if asked "do you accept or reject all TEN of the TEN Commandments" the logic in the post above seems to respond with "We accept all TEN with one of them edited"
 
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Hazelelponi

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I suppose your going after those who believe in keeping the 7th day as a day of physical rest, which I do not believe.. but the Sabbath absolutely is 100% an eternal moral law for all eternity... so I voted yes on your poll because it is a law that so long as men walk this earth shall never pass away, and all men will be judged by.

I just believe not in the shadow, but the fulfilled and now known reality that we find in Christ Jesus, my Lord and Savior, it's no longer a representative mystery, it's reality is made known to all mankind.

And it's a moral law, in my point of view because skip it and your going to hell...
 
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HARK!

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Ok, so what is the the difference between YHWH and Yahshua?

What is the difference between a father and a son?

I look not so much for differences between them, but more to just knowing them. We are to be one.

Be that as it may be; a married couple are to be one. If Bob and Jane come to my home; and Jane, Bob's wife, trips in her heels; I don't say that Bob tripped in his heels.

What other differences do you teach are between Old Covenant and New Covenant other than Jesus replacing Moses?


Why would you say that I teach? I didn't say that Yahshua replaced Moses. There was a transference of the High Priesthood.
 
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HARK!

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A claim to change the Sabbath is not a claim to "delete the Sabbath" or a claim that "The Sabbath was merely ceremonial -- we left it as-is since we are not keeping ceremonial laws".

I see nothing in scripture that defines ceremonial laws; nor do I see anything that says that they were don away with,
 
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BobRyan

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In summary, there is no reason to keep a Sabbath based on where it is listed. Rather all ceremonial law was moral in nature at the time it was in force simply because God said to keep it. If we attempt to distinguish moral and ceremonial laws in an effort to preserve moral law from the Mosaic Covenant, we find the Sabbath has the attributes of a ceremony and therefore is obsolete to Christians today even if they believe the other moral laws are not obsolete.

Do you agree?

I suppose your going after those who believe in keeping the 7th day as a day of physical rest, which I do not believe..

A thread that would have started out with "we all agree that the Sabbath commandment is one of the moral commands of God that defines what obedience is vs sin - but on which day should we keep the Sabbath? Was it changed ? Did that moral law of God regarding the weekly day of worship start out as the 7th day and then get changed to the first day of the week?" would be along the lines of what you are stating above. But I don't see any language like that at all in the OP for this thread.


but the Sabbath absolutely is 100% an eternal moral law for all eternity

... so I voted yes on your poll because it is a law that so long as men walk this earth shall never pass away, and all men will be judged by.

I just believe not in the shadow, but the fulfilled and now known reality that we find in Christ Jesus, my Lord and Savior, it's no longer a representative mystery, it's reality is made known to all mankind.

And it's a moral law, in my point of view because skip it and your going to hell...

If you look closely at the argument in the OP it is specifically against the Sabbath commandment itself - regardless of which day you keep it.

So it appears that in the POV you take - that voting "yes" on the poll goes to the point.
 
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Hazelelponi

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If you look closely at the argument in the OP it is specifically against the Sabbath commandment itself - regardless on which day you keep it.

So it appears that in the POV you take - that voting "yes" on the poll is to the point.


Yeah that was the feeling I got, which is definitely why I answered yes. The law hasn't passed... our understanding of it is just complete now, and it's a moral law.
 
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BobRyan

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Yeah that was the feeling I got, which is definitely why I answered yes. The law hasn't passed... our understanding of it is just complete now, and it's a moral law.


Section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith appears to agree with your statement -- as I posted it here -
#21
 
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timothyu

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Daniel 7:25
Revelation 14:12.

"Let all the judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades rest on the venerable day of the sun" Edict of March 7, 321 A.D. Corpus Juris Civilis Cod., lib. 3, tit. 12, Lex. 3.

"We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea, transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, Third edition, pg. 50.

Can anyone find a Bible verse saying Sunday is holy and must be observed rather than the Sabbath Saturday?
 
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Andre_b

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Great post, thanks for adding it. Now if I also may add to what you wrote,

The people's promise to obey was the "wife's" vow in the "Marriage-Covenant".​

This makes Jesus the husband and Israel the wife. Their marriage covenant is known as the Mosaic Covenant. Paul says in Romans 7:1-6,

Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.​

So the death of Jesus ended the marriage covenant, the covenant between God and Israel. Then in Hebrews 8:13:

By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.​

And it did soon disappear when in 70AD the temple system was completely destroyed.

The New Covenant still has many elements of the Old Covenant. You pick and choose yourself which verses may seem to say something that it doesn't.

You seem so confused because the grace only theology you hold on to. Do you believe you can do whatever you want in life because there's no point of trying not to sin because you will anyways? Paul is very clear that this is NOT TRUE specifically talking to WHO ASSUME OTHERWISE:

(Rom 6:1-2) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

(Rom 6:15-16) Further, he says “What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness”.

Clearly the law is still there (Romans 13:9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Most of your reasoning is circular and doesn't explain since you try and avoid any verse that speak about laws. Simply because another verse may say we are are not under the law. That's simply being saved and we have everlasting life. That doesn't mean the law doesn't exist in the believers anymore.

James 2:14-26 was also 100% clear that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD. Can't get any simpler that that.

Grace = Salvation
Works = Obedience to God
We are not saved by works, continued works are the RESULT of being saved and live a holy life.

You also avoid 100% clear simple verse in Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." -> He specifically says MAN not Israel, not Jews, etc. it says MAN as in HUMANS/MANKIND. It doesn't matter who he is speaking to here because he says it's for MAN, anyone that follows GOD.

You then take a long parabolic/symbolic verse and try to change the meaning of it. We then have to try and explain it to you because you massacre the verses. Take the simple verses as what it means then try to figure out the other verse to align with the simple ones. Yet you seem to do the opposite.
 
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BobRyan

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Daniel 7:25
Revelation 14:12.

"Let all the judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades rest on the venerable day of the sun" Edict of March 7, 321 A.D. Corpus Juris Civilis Cod., lib. 3, tit. 12, Lex. 3.

"We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea, transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, Third edition, pg. 50.

Can anyone find a Bible verse saying Sunday is holy and must be observed rather than the Sabbath Saturday?

Let's say that nobody finds such a text - but the OP would not change. It does not claim the Sabbath is one of the moral commands of God "as long as you edit it to point to a different day" . Rather the OP POV appears to be that no matter what your reason may be for editing it or not editing the day -- the Sabbath commandment is not part of the moral law of God.

I keep pointing out that painting with such a broad brush wipes out a great deal more pro-Sunday scholars than Sabbath keeping ones that do not edit the command.

So even though the OP starts out using the "form" -- "hey you Sabbath keeping Christians" -- what it does in detail is call out "hey you Saturday and Sunday keeping Christians who claim that you observe in some way the 4th commandment... I have some things to ask you".
 
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timothyu

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Rather the OP POV appears to be that no matter what your reason may be for editing it or not editing the day -- the Sabbath commandment is not part of the moral law of God.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

God gave Moses the 10 C's which He said would last forever. He also handed out ceremonial law, which of course no longer applies as the ceremony represented a sacrifice that would someday be made by the Saviour. That having been accomplished the ceremonial laws no longer apply. God also gave the health laws, and according to James gentiles were to retain the stipulations to abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled. However as a side note and health wise it might be prudent to avoid the unclean foods mentioned in the OT. Nothing like eating toxin digesting critters.
 
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HARK!

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Daniel 7:25
Revelation 14:12.

"Let all the judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades rest on the venerable day of the sun" Edict of March 7, 321 A.D. Corpus Juris Civilis Cod., lib. 3, tit. 12, Lex. 3.

"We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea, transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, Third edition, pg. 50.

Can anyone find a Bible verse saying Sunday is holy and must be observed rather than the Sabbath Saturday?

"Examining the New Testament from cover to cover, critically, we find the sabbath referred to sixty-one times. We find too, that the Saviour invariably selected the Sabbath (Saturday) to teach in the synagogues and work miracles. The four Gospels refer to the Sabbath fifty-one times. In one instance , the Redeemer refers to Himself as 'Lord of the Sabbath' as mentioned by Matthew and Luke, but, during the whole record of His life, while invaribly keeping and utilizing the day, (Saturday), He never once hinted at a desire to change it. "- The Catholic Mirror Nov. 25 1893. J. Cardinal Gibbons.
 
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HARK!

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God gave Moses the 10 C's which He said would last forever.

Yes, but some of these guys even go so far as to say that forever doesn't mean forever anymore.

It amazes me, the steps they'll take to get around keeping an appointment with their creator.
 
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He also handed out ceremonial law, which of course no longer applies as the ceremony represented a sacrifice that would someday be made by the Saviour.
I see nothing in scripture that makes a distinction for ceremonial law.

Despite the High Priesthood being transferred, the Levitical Priesthood will be making sacrifices in the kingdom to come. YHWH made an eternal covenant with the Levitical Priesthood.

Until YHWH calls Israel back into the land....
 
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