Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

agapelove

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In none of these vss. is there an adjective or phrase describing/defining "aionios" as a period less that "eternal." No, none, zero.
I'm not sure you understand what I am asking. An adjective a describing word, big, little, long, short etc or a phrase that defines/describes. Here are two of my verses.

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In these two verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” "Should not perish" is a quality of "aonios life." Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

By your logic "should not perish" is not an adjective either???

In Ephesians 1:21 "aion" is paired with "the one to come" signifying there is more than one aion, and the present aion will eventually end.

In Matthew 28:20, Hebrews 9:26, and Matthew 24:3 "aion" is paired with "the end of" signifying it will end therefore not eternal.

Let's use our contextual clues and common sense here. Do not even try to cry "hyperbole" because in these passages it is doing the exact opposite of what a hyperbole should be doing.

Not a vs. where something/someone that is not eternal is referred to as "olam." But a vs, where "olam" is defined/described as less than eternity.

Why? Why do you choose to ignore the verses where olam is referring to something not eternal? Especially when they come straight out of the mouth of God? God told Moses that their covenant would be "olam". Then in Jeremiah God says He will make a new covenant that will replace the old one. If "olam" meant eternal like you claim then YOU are the one making God out to be a liar and breaker of promises.

Listen mate... I never even wanted to argue about the word "aion". It is an unnecessary debate that has been put to rest long ago so why do you still dig up buried graves in an effort to reinforce eternal torment? Let's put the lexicons and grammar books away and get back to the moral argument about why that is complete BS, hm?
 
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ClementofA

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Well I still await the verse that shows where a person in the lake of fire can repent.


Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

XYZ said:
Do you agree with Vincent that aidios means everlasting?

I think it was a superior word to use relative to the ambiguous aion & aionios, if God was a believer in endless punishment. Moreover, as opposed to aion and aionios (which are often used of finite duration), God had a number of other words & expressions available that would also have better served to express endless punishment, if Love Omnipotent were a believer of such. But He never uses such of eschatological punishment. So the reasonable conclusion is that Love Omnipotent rejected using such words and expressions of a final destiny of endless punishment because He knew better & He rejected the notion that anyone will endure endless punishment. Those words & expresssions are:

1. no end (Lk.1:33)...this expression is used of God's kingdom having "no end". It is never used of anyone's torments or punishment. We never read of anyone receiving torments that will have "no end". This unambiguous phrase, "no end", would have been a superior choice to the ambiguous words aion & aionion, if Love Omnipotent had a belief in endless torments or annihilation. But He rejected its use in expressing such a fate.

2. endless (1 Tim.1:4)...Again if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments, why didn't He use this word to express it, instead of the ambiguous aion & aionion, which often refer to finite durations in ancient Greek usage?

3. never (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." Mark 9 Benson Commentary

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

4. eternal (Rom.1:16; Jude 1:6)...this word, AIDIOS, is used of God's "eternal" power & "eternal" chains that bind until the day of judgement. It is never used of anyone's final destiny. We never read of anyone being tormented for eternal ages. We never read of anyone suffering eternal (AIDIOS) punishment. If Jude believed in endless punishment, he had the perfect opportunity at Jude 1:6 by simply adding that the angels would suffer the judgement of eternal (AIDIOS) punishment or torments. Instead of warning his readers of such a horrificly monstrous fate, as he should have been morally obligated to do if it were a real possibility, instead he conveys the relatively utterly lame & insignificant info that these angelic beings will be kept in chains until judgement day. OTOH, consider:

"Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he [Jesus] used aionion kolasin..." Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment

"Nyssa defined the vision of God promised there as "life without end, eternal incorruption, undying beatitude [ten ateleuteton zoen, ten aidion aphtharsian , ten athanaton makarioteta]." ("Christianity and Classical Culture: The Metamorphosis of Natural Theology in ..." By Jaroslav Pelikan, p.165 @): Christianity and Classical Culture

5. unfading (1 Pet.1:4; 5:4)...Peter uses this word of an endless inheritance reserved in heaven & a crown of glory. It is never used of the endless pain, punishment or torments that anyone will receive. Can it be denied that this would have been a superior word (over aion & aionios) to use to express such a horrific destiny if Love Omnipotent actually had such in store for anyone? Wouldn't He want to express warnings about it in the clearest ways possible?

6. found no place for repentance (Heb.12:17)...is used in Heb.12:17 of the loss of a finite earthly blessing..."he found no place of repentance, although having earnestly sought it with tears". Never is it used regarding those in Gehenna, Hades, the lake of fire, or eschatological punishment. Never do we read of those cast into any "hell" that they will not (or never) find a place of repentance, even though they earnestly seek it with tears. God was quite capable of expressing such in His Holy Scriptures. But rather than give such a warning, as Love Omnipotent should have if such an unbelievably horrific future awaited anyone, instead we are told of the relatively lame loss of a finite earthly blessing. Such a waste of words if endless punishment were really true.

7. In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Saint Steven

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If it were true, it is so awful that it should never be spoken without tears and a broken heart. How does the mother of a murderer speak of the corning execution of her boy? Yet the prospect to her is only one of time, and in the limits of the physical. If the people believe it, then their attitude about the whole thing reveals that they could care less if the creation burns forever. The fact is, NO ONE really believes in an eternal burning hell if we are to judge by their actions. If they saw a person in a burning building, they would put forth every effort to save them; they would cry and scream for help; they would be late for work; they would not rest until the victims were rescued. Yet, those who teach eternal torment can spend their hours relaxing in front of the television screen, visiting and feasting upon rich dainties with their friends, and whole days in camping, vacationing, fishing, and playing, and then lay their heads upon a pillow every night and sleep soundly, while, according to their own teaching, countless millions are going to a place a million times worse than a burning building!

If they believed what they teach, they would never cease, day and night until they dropped, and others came to take their places, in their efforts to save men from such a place! They excuse themselves by saying, "All we can do is warn." But if they were standing before a burning building would they preach a thirty-minute sermon, then turn and walk away, saying, "All we can do is warn!" And how many do they meet day after day, and never mention their danger? Ah, precious friend of mine, if my concept of hell were what modern Christendom's is, then it is my conviction that I would not be able to wait for God to send me to preach the Gospel! I would have to spend my every wakened hour pleading, working, struggling, fighting to save men from such a fate. I would be compelled to spend hours upon hours in the chronic wards of hospitals, in rest homes, with the elderly and those working on dangerous jobs, begging men to repent and turn to Jesus before they die. And I am convinced that anyone with the love of God in his heart would do the same IF HE REALLY BELIEVED the fables that are being taught today about hell. I will say this, either those who teach eternal torture are EXTREMELY CALLOUSED or they do not believe what they teach!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
 
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Der Alte

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By your logic "should not perish" is not an adjective either???
It is not an adjective but a descriptive phrase.
In Ephesians 1:21 "aion" is paired with "the one to come" signifying there is more than one aion, and the present aion will eventually end.
Oh goody he might have found one exception.
In Matthew 28:20, Hebrews 9:26, and Matthew 24:3 "aion" is paired with "the end of" signifying it will end therefore not eternal.
Let's use our contextual clues and common sense here. Do not even try to cry "hyperbole" because in these passages it is doing the exact opposite of what a hyperbole should be doing.
Another possible exception. A few possible exceptions do not refute my conclusions.
Why? Why do you choose to ignore the verses where olam is referring to something not eternal? Especially when they come straight out of the mouth of God? God told Moses that their covenant would be "olam". Then in Jeremiah God says He will make a new covenant that will replace the old one. If "olam" meant eternal like you claim then YOU are the one making God out to be a liar and breaker of promises.
I have already addressed the verses where "olam" refers to something which cannot be "eternal." For example, the fact that "all the world" Genesis 41:57 cannot possibly mean the entire world does not change the inherent meaning of "ha eretz"/"the world." Can you find me verses which define/describe "olam" as less that eternal. For example something like this.

Hab_3:6 and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: [which were soon to pass away.]
Listen mate... I never even wanted to argue about the word "aion". It is an unnecessary debate that has been put to rest long ago so why do you still dig up buried graves in an effort to reinforce eternal torment? Let's put the lexicons and grammar books away and get back to the moral argument about why that is complete BS, hm?
Plenty of specious arguments but nothing has been put to rest. No problem mate. I'll make a deal with you stop claiming that "olam"/"aionios" do not mean "eternal" and I will quit proving it does.
 
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NO ONE really believes in an eternal burning hell if we are to judge by their actions.

If I had a dime for every poor infernalist who's called me 'thou fool' for singing about UR...seems 'we' can conveniently sweep Matt 5:22 aside when it suits.
 
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FineLinen

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Nope, see I read the whole counsel of God!

Noli: this is exciting information! (lol)

What is the whole council of God in your new understanding?

Does especially = only?

Is the Author of the all, the Finisher of the all?

Does the whole of created life experience being set free from the bondage of sin, or only believers?
 
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So you are claiming that Jesus is an eternal failure then?
Father God sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Did he succeed, or fail?
...

I don’t think he has failed. He is the savior, but not all want to receive salvation. If person rejects salvation (forgiveness), it is not same as failing, if the plan was not to force people to accept it. Jesus is the savior, because he can save and he offers salvation. If no one would accept it, Jesus still would be the savior.
 
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Saint Steven

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I don’t think he has failed. He is the savior, but not all want to receive salvation. If person rejects salvation (forgiveness), it is not same as failing, if the plan was not to force people to accept it. Jesus is the savior, because he can save and he offers salvation. If no one would accept it, Jesus still would be the savior.
I have to laugh when Damnationists come with their gun-to-the-head, "believe or burn" dogma and then say that "the plan was not to force people to accept it." Seriously?

I think you have mistaken Father God for the gangster godfather with his "Offer you can't refuse."

As if to say, "No biggie, take it or leave it... but if you reject it, you will burn for all eternity with no hope of escape. No pressure, take your time deciding. But you better do it before you die, 'cause after that, it's burn baby, burn."
 
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Der Alte

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I have to laugh when Damnationists come with their gun-to-the-head, "believe or burn" dogma and then say that "the plan was not to force people to accept it." Seriously?
I think you have mistaken Father God for the gangster godfather with his "Offer you can't refuse."
As if to say, "No biggie, take it or leave it... but if you reject it, you will burn for all eternity with no hope of escape. No pressure, take your time deciding. But you better do it before you die, 'cause after that, it's burn baby, burn."
How many, if any, sermons preaching "believe or burn" have you or any other UR-ite ever heard? I think I can can safely say none. I have been attending church since FDR and a Christian since LBJ and I have only heard one and I preached it, more than 2 decades ago. So UR-ites are building and destroying their own straw men.
 
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FineLinen

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I don’t think he has failed. He is the savior, but not all want to receive salvation. If person rejects salvation (forgiveness), it is not same as failing, if the plan was not to force people to accept it. Jesus is the savior, because he can save and he offers salvation. If no one would accept it, Jesus still would be the savior.

The Saviour of all mankind is not a potential Saviour sitting on His perch while the drowning ones go glub, glub, glub.

He never fails.

This is no offer & is not based upon any of us but is entirely out of Himself.
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
The Saviour of all mankind is not a potential Saviour sitting on His perch while the drowning ones go glub, glub, glub.
He never fails.
This is no offer & is not based upon any of us but entirely out of Himself.
If God sending many into "eternal punishment" or casting many into "the Lake of fire" would be considered a failure then God "failed" several times before.
Genesis 19:24-25 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Numbers 21:3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.
Deuteronomy 20:16-17 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
Deuteronomy 7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
Romans 1:24
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Psalms 81:11-12
11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.
12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.




 
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Saint Steven

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George Hawtin has so aptly written: "Is it any wonder that in the face of such sadistic humbug there has been a wholesale manufacture of infidels? All these statements (by eternal hell-fire preachers) may be a show of oratorical eloquence, but they are nothing more. They hold no part of truth. They deny every attribute of God. They make wisdom foolishness, turn eternal love into exasperated hate, make omnipotence helplessness, and make the justice of God the grossest injustice in the universe. To say that I believe in such repugnance would be a lie of the first order. I do not believe it because it is contrary to the nature of God. It is contrary to the love of God. It is contrary to the justice of God. It is contrary to the power of God. It is contrary to the Word of God and it puts God in the ridiculous position of being the almighty King of kings and Lord of lords yet having in His dominion a vast pocket of hate and resistance that even He cannot overcome. Further than this it makes the mighty sacrifice of Christ that was made for all the world to be almost impotent in its power and scope. Worst of all, it frustrates the purpose of God laid down in the beginning when He said, 'Let us make man in our image and after our likeness.' Some will immediately ask me whether I do not believe in hell. My answer is very definite on this point. I most certainly DO BELIEVE in hell, but the hell of the Bible and the hell of human tradition are not the same thing at all. The hell of tradition is hopeless and eternal, while the hell of the Scripture like every judgment of God is corrective, remedial, and restorative." -end quote.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
 
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George Hawtin has so aptly written: "Is it any wonder that in the face of such sadistic humbug there has been a wholesale manufacture of infidels? All these statements (by eternal hell-fire preachers) may be a show of oratorical eloquence, but they are nothing more. They hold no part of truth. They deny every attribute of God. They make wisdom foolishness, turn eternal love into exasperated hate, make omnipotence helplessness, and make the justice of God the grossest injustice in the universe. To say that I believe in such repugnance would be a lie of the first order. I do not believe it because it is contrary to the nature of God. It is contrary to the love of God. It is contrary to the justice of God. It is contrary to the power of God. It is contrary to the Word of God and it puts God in the ridiculous position of being the almighty King of kings and Lord of lords yet having in His dominion a vast pocket of hate and resistance that even He cannot overcome. Further than this it makes the mighty sacrifice of Christ that was made for all the world to be almost impotent in its power and scope. Worst of all, it frustrates the purpose of God laid down in the beginning when He said, 'Let us make man in our image and after our likeness.' Some will immediately ask me whether I do not believe in hell. My answer is very definite on this point. I most certainly DO BELIEVE in hell, but the hell of the Bible and the hell of human tradition are not the same thing at all. The hell of tradition is hopeless and eternal, while the hell of the Scripture like every judgment of God is corrective, remedial, and restorative." -end quote.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Great quote imho. Sadistic humbug...wholesale manufacture of infidels.

I'd further suggest an industrial kitchen brewing up hell's children, on the strength of Matt 23:15:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

I keep leaving comments on that Ray Comfort's YT channel trying to get him to stop doing it. He's one that convinces unbelievers of God's existence with a very effective argument from design, then basically threatens them with eternal punishment if they don't sign up.
 
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How many, if any, sermons preaching "believe or burn" have you or any other UR-ite ever heard? I think I can can safely say none. I have been attending church since FDR and a Christian since LBJ and I have only heard one and I preached it, more than 2 decades ago. So UR-ites are building and destroying their own straw men.

There's still a few 'hellfire' preachers around. But now it goes largely unmentioned in 'seeker-friendly' churches, (like the Roman pillar which supports Christ the Redeemer statue in Rio). I found out the hard way when I brought it up in the hyper-grace pentecostal church I was going to...oh I was the dangerous enemy very quickly.

The message? Just keep paying your tithes and feel the happy happy joy joy of the 'Spirit', and everything will be copacetic. But here is truth:

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (Isa 53:3)

Btw, what happened to the 'r', Der Alte?
 
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Der Alte

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There's still a few 'hellfire' preachers around. But now it goes largely unmentioned in 'seeker-friendly' churches, (like the Roman pillar which supports Christ the Redeemer statue in Rio). I found out the hard way when I brought it up in the hyper-grace pentecostal church I was going to...oh I was the dangerous enemy very quickly.
The message? Just keep paying your tithes and feel the happy happy joy joy of the 'Spirit', and everything will be copacetic. But here is truth:
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (Isa 53:3)
Btw, what happened to the 'r', Der Alte?
Yeah, right! I'm sure some preacher said "Just keep paying your tithes and feel the happy happy joy joy of the 'Spirit', and everything will be copacetic."
Hell is For Real | Sermons | First Baptist Church of Lafayette, Louisiana


Der Alter was grammatically incorrect. I have wanted to change it for some time but only recently was it so easy.
 
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Yeah, right! I'm sure some preacher said "Just keep paying your tithes and feel the happy happy joy joy of the 'Spirit', and everything will be copacetic."
Hell is For Real | Sermons | First Baptist Church of Lafayette, Louisiana

That was indeed the sub-text. I even emailed a senior pastor a few questions re UR and the Lake of Fire etc, he didn't even dignify it with a response. UR messes with 'big church business', they hate it and can't wait to see the back of you, no matter how much you gave in tithes and offerings previously.

But where's the 'r' gone?
 
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ClementofA

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How many, if any, sermons preaching "believe or burn" have you or any other UR-ite ever heard? I think I can can safely say none. I have been attending church since FDR and a Christian since LBJ and I have only heard one and I preached it, more than 2 decades ago. So UR-ites are building and destroying their own straw men.

So you've never heard anyone preach a sermon on Rev.21:8, or Gehenna, Lk.16:19-31, & many other similar passages?

Actually, you yourself often refer here on these forums to such passages.

You even repeatedly (many dozens of times) post stuff from Jewish fairy tales/myths such as this "gem" of a quote:

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)."

Evidently stuff like this is "your thing".
 
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ClementofA

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If God sending many into "eternal punishment" or casting many into "the Lake of fire" would be considered a failure then God "failed" several times before.

When has God ever already sent anyone to "eternal punishment" in this universe in the verses you posted?

Or do you believe in alternate, or other, universes where that has happened?

 
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FineLinen

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When has God ever already sent anyone to "eternal punishment" in this universe in the verses you posted?

Or do you believe in alternate, or other, universes where that has happened?


Where do these old rascals come from? Dearest Abba must break into their world of broke & busted!

Turning eternal love into exasperated hate.

George Hawtin has so aptly written: "Is it any wonder that in the face of such sadistic humbug there has been a wholesale manufacture of infidels?

All these statements (by eternal hell-fire preachers) may be a show of oratorical eloquence, but they are nothing more. They hold no part of truth. They deny every attribute of God. They make wisdom foolishness, turn eternal love into exasperated hate, make omnipotence helplessness, and make the justice of God the grossest injustice in the universe.

To say that I believe in such repugnance would be a lie of the first order. I do not believe it because it is contrary to the nature of God. It is contrary to the love of God. It is contrary to the justice of God. It is contrary to the power of God. It is contrary to the Word of God and it puts God in the ridiculous position of being the almighty King of kings and Lord of lords yet having in His dominion a vast pocket of hate and resistance that even He cannot overcome.

Further than this it makes the mighty sacrifice of Christ that was made for all the world to be almost impotent in its power and scope. Worst of all, it frustrates the purpose of God laid down in the beginning when He said, 'Let us make man in our image and after our likeness.' Some will immediately ask me whether I do not believe in hell.

My answer is very definite on this point. I most certainly do believe in hell, but the hell of the Bible and the hell of human tradition are not the same thing at all.

The hell of tradition is hopeless and eternal, while the hell of the Scripture like every judgment of God is corrective, remedial, and restorative."

-J. Preston Eby-
 
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FineLinen

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Listen mate... I never even wanted to argue about the word "aion". It is an unnecessary debate that has been put to rest long ago so why do you still dig up buried graves in an effort to reinforce eternal torment? Let's put the lexicons and grammar books away and get back to the moral argument about why that is complete BS, hm?

Dear Agape: Digging up "buried graves" is the only dimension of life some mates see. It is time the Master of ephathatha walked down their road for a visit of epic proportions!

"This is life aionios that we may know You.."
 
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