Judge Not: False Doctrine

Zao is life · May 9, 2020

HARK! said:
Exodus 31
12 YAHWEH said to Moshe, 13 Tell the people of Isra’el, ‘You are to observe my Shabbats; for this is a sign between me and you through all your generations; so that you will know that I am YAHWEH, who sets you apart for me. 17 It is a sign between me and the people of Isra’el forever; for in six days ADONAI made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day he stopped working and rested.’

So was Jesus wrong in His assessment of the Pharisees judgment of Him and His apostles for not resting?

HARK! · May 9, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I only quoted Jesus and the fact that He judged the Pharisees legalistic judgment of Him and Hos apostles for failing to observe sabbath.

The Pharisees judgement was not of YHWH's law; therefore it was not legalistic. If it is in opposition to the Torah; it is on opposition to YHWH's law.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I never offered any opinion.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
So it would appear to me

HARK! · May 9, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
So was Jesus wrong in His assessment of the Pharisees judgment of Him and His apostles for not resting?

The Pharisees were wrong. They were adding to the Torah. It's not against Torah to eat on Shabbat.

Zao is life · May 9, 2020

HARK! said:
The Pharisees were wrong. They were adding to the Torah. It's not against Torah to eat on Shabbat.

I see. So the Pharisees' legalism was not scriptural?

HARK! · May 9, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I see. So the Pharisees' legalism was not scriptural?

The Talmud isn't legalism according to Torah. What you are saying doesn't compute with me.

It's like saying that Satanist doctrine is legalism. I reject the assertion on its' face.

One law!

Zao is life · May 9, 2020

HARK! said:
The Talmud isn't legalism according to Torah. What you are saying doesn't compute with me.

It's like saying that Satanist doctrine is legalism. I reject the assertion on its' face.

One law!

Yep. One legalism too.

Beanieboy · May 10, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
You're right. What Jesus Christ was saying here was that we cant be hypocrites in our judgements of others as well.

If you cheat on your wife constantly than you have no right to judge somebody who cheats also. First you have to tell your wife and work it out together, never cheat on her again, and THEN you can judge the other person for cheating. Otherwise God will say on judgement day that you were a hypocrite in doing so.

Or if you judge someone for lying and cussing, and you lie and cuss up a storm.

Then why does he say to take the log from your eye before trying to remove the speck fron your brother? The log vs speck comparison implies that your obstacle is far worse than that of your brother.

Blade · May 10, 2020

We should not judge. He knew who He was talking to

. Not that we can't its well we do it based on love.. His word? First Cor 13..the whole book of Phil. And the fruits of the spirit. Is that what we are walking in? Is to help to bring them back to Christ, to focus on and give all the glory to Christ/God?

The 12 (with Paul) could.. they lived what they believed. And it was always in love and always to make sure self never ever was in it.. only God. That He alone got all the glory and praise.

So the answer is no. Why? Because.. if it is not in love.. then we force so to speak GOD to now focus on us and we then get judged exactly how we were judging others.

And I do not for one moment believe I am right when I speak.. HE alone is right. I am not. I am always willing to learn. ALL good things come from my Father.. I delight my self in Him.. and He has always given me the desire of my heart

GaveMeJoy · May 10, 2020

TLSITD said:
1 Corinthians 5:1-13

gross unrepentant and flagrant sin exists and needs to be dealt with according to scripture. This has nothing to do with the “pro judging others” mentality and is not a defense for it. The entire concept of making a topic of discourse amongst believers on why we get to judge others is a total airball and misses the entire whole point of the New Testament.

GaveMeJoy · May 10, 2020

Beanieboy said:
Then why does he say to take the log from your eye before trying to remove the speck fron your brother? The log vs speck comparison implies that your obstacle is far worse than that of your brother.

First of all, All men sin so we are all hypocrites. The point of these verses is to be careful about how we look at, talk about and treat others, and that judging others is a slap in the face to God. Discernment and admonishing other believers out of love isn’t judgement in the way the word is defined by our culture. Treating verses talking about rampant sin like the guy having sex with his mom in Corinthians as an excuse to judge others and be “pro-judging” is a swing and a miss for all Christians

GaveMeJoy · May 10, 2020

HARK! said:
No doubt. For some reason people keep equating just judgement with hypocrisy. Just judgement rebukes hypocrisy.

The word “judging” has connotations that go beyond admonishing other believers or discouraging them from sin. Using the term in a “pro-judging” way is foolish and further damages Christ’s testimony to unbelievers.

GaveMeJoy · May 10, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
1 John 3:9. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
John 3:7. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must all be born from above.'
We need to know the Law to be born from above? Does that follow?
He was instructing an expert on the Law, and Nicodemus had no idea what Yeshua was saying.
John 3:10. Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
Romans 2:27. And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?
Romans 14:
10 Now why are you judging your brother? Or why are you also scorning your brother?
For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God,
11 for it is written: Living am I, the Lord is saying, For to Me shall bow every knee,
And every tongue shall be acclaiming God!"
12 Consequently, then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God."
13 By no means, then, should we still be judging one another, but rather decide this,
not to place a stumbling block for a brother, or a snare."
Luke 24:49. Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.
Mark 10:15. Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.
Acts 2:38. Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 3: All scripture is inspired by God, and is beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be equipped, fitted out for every good act."
instruction in righteousness=towrah, from yarah-to teach.
Study to show yourself approved.
The scriptures tell us what the Father expects. The Holy Spirit empowers to succeed.
That is "under Grace".
How are you and the Beatitudes? This is not Law. Not commandments.
This is evidence that the Holy Spirit is at work in you,
meeting the righteous requirements of God's Word.
If you say "you must know Torah", you must also say "you must be born from above".
To know the Lord, who is the Spirit of Truth, of Life. That is the FULL Gospel.
No way do you need to know 613 laws to judge righteous judgment.
You need a conscience without offense to the Father, and a "hearing heart" toward the Holy Spirit.
Love your neighbor and the Holy Spirit trumps 613 laws every time. At least in my Bible.

If someone thinks they have a conscience without offense toward the Holy Spirit than congrats on their sinless lifestyle, or they need to google the sin of pride.

GaveMeJoy · May 10, 2020

HARK! said:
The Pharisees judgement was not of YHWH's law; therefore it was not legalistic. If it is in opposition to the Torah; it is on opposition to YHWH's law.

Peters dream and the subsequent teaching of the New Testament that it’s permissible to eat unclean animals is in direct violation of the Torah.

HARK! · May 10, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
Peters dream and the subsequent teaching of the New Testament that it’s permissible to eat unclean animals is in direct violation of the Torah.

...but that's not what Peter's vision was about; therefore it's a false teaching.

Peter's Vision

Mr. M · May 11, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
If someone thinks they have a conscience without offense toward the Holy Spirit than congrats on their sinless lifestyle, or they need to google the sin of pride.

John 16:8. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
When the Holy Spirit convicts your conscience, you must repent. That is a Christian lifestyle that cleanses us from sin, to maintain a conscience without offense toward God and man.
Matthew 5:23, 24. “Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

TLSITD · May 11, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
gross unrepentant and flagrant sin exists and needs to be dealt with according to scripture. This has nothing to do with the “pro judging others” mentality and is not a defense for it. The entire concept of making a topic of discourse amongst believers on why we get to judge others is a total airball and misses the entire whole point of the New Testament.

There is no connection between Jesus' reprimand of the scribes and Pharisees who condemned the adulteress and His teaching on not being hypocritical in exercising and rendering appropriate judgments of sin. One does not have to be without any sin oneself to exercise appropriate judgment according to God's judgments. No Christian never sins, but we are to make righteous judgments on sinful behavior. Please reread my post if you are confused.

Incidentally, the man who Paul told the church in Corinth to expel for his immorality later repented and, like the adulteress Jesus pardoned---whose contrition is implicit and was obviously known to Jesus---was forgiven.

I'm always suspicious of people who are intensely anti-judgment. The gospel, and all of the New Testament, is very "judgmental".

People who don't want to be convicted of sin and don't hate sin don't really want to be Christians. They may want to avoid hellfire, but being afraid of the punishment is not the same as being contrite in heart and wanting to follow after righteousness and do the will of God.

Anyone who loves his sin and wants to make excuses for it and continue in it isn't ready to come to Christ. If people like this mix in with sincere Christians, they contaminate them. (These are the sort described as "roots of bitterness" in Hebrews 12:15.)

CaspianSails · May 11, 2020

Cbowles said:
He is referring to Angel's and the affairs of the church. Paul says avoid debates about the law. The Holy Spirit needs to sanctify believers. You help through edification.

Following the steps of Paul when confronting a brother who has sinned includes a judgement that the person is living a life which requires an intervention. How does one reconcile that with an absolute rule to not judge. One must surely and certainly be aware that the standard with which you judge will be one which you will be judged by. However, I would take issue with stating if one does not judge at all he or she will escape judgement altogether. All the works of Christians will be tried and many of those works will be found wanting.

GaveMeJoy · May 12, 2020

TLSITD said:
There is no connection between Jesus' reprimand of the scribes and Pharisees who condemned the adulteress and His teaching on not being hypocritical in exercising and rendering appropriate judgments of sin. One does not have to be without any sin oneself to exercise appropriate judgment according to God's judgments. No Christian never sins, but we are to make righteous judgments on sinful behavior. Please reread my post if you are confused.

Incidentally, the man who Paul told the church in Corinth to expel for his immorality later repented and, like the adulteress Jesus pardoned---whose contrition is implicit and was obviously known to Jesus---was forgiven.

I'm always suspicious of people who are intensely anti-judgment. The gospel, and all of the New Testament, is very "judgmental".

People who don't want to be convicted of sin and don't hate sin don't really want to be Christians. They may want to avoid hellfire, but being afraid of the punishment is not the same as being contrite in heart and wanting to follow after righteousness and do the will of God.

Anyone who loves his sin and wants to make excuses for it and continue in it isn't ready to come to Christ. If people like this mix in with sincere Christians, they contaminate them. (These are the sort described as "roots of bitterness" in Hebrews 12:15.)

There is a difference between applying scriptural principles regarding sin/discernment/exhortation/encouragement and judging others (both Christian and unbelievers). The term "judge" and the phrase "judging others" has obvious and objective connotations which make it a poor descriptive term for the concept you are referring to and are referred to in scripture. That is why it's a bad idea to become a "judge others" champion. You can post a thread about standing up against sin in the church and in other believers without making "Thou Shalt Judge" be your mandate. I understand why judgy Christians want to protect the term and concept. Many are prideful and enjoy taking God's place as judge and standard bearer. That is why the emphasis on the term is important to them, and why anyone who approaches this discussion with grace and hope is immediately tagged as a "sin excuser." When discussing important topics that impact our testimony and have the ability to hurt others, it is important to be mindful of the terms they use, not just by their dictionary definition, but by underlying meaning and connotation. Judge not, lest ye be judged" is not talking about scriptural principles regarding sin/discernment/exhortation/encouragement, it cannot be because it expressly forbids judging others, and the word can't contradict itself. Therefore, it is important to take into account the verses that talk about the emphasis and >spirit< behind the scriptural principles and discernment we are discussing. Unfortunately, its low hanging fruit to embrace pride and campaign for the "right" to judge. It's like looking at a black and white picture of a rainbow: you can still tell it's a rainbow but you miss what it really is. The correct response to verse that talk about not judging others is not to explain them away with other proof verses or bogus interpretations to protect the right to judge. We are called to not judge others, and to have discernment and take sin seriously in our own lives and the lives of other believers. It's not an either or, and it's not two camps. It's being proud or being humble. I've never discussed this topic with a "pro judgement" person that approached the discussion this way. If I do, I would hope they wouldn't use the term judge because it's a stupid word to use to address the issue.

GaveMeJoy · May 12, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
John 16:8. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
When the Holy Spirit convicts your conscience, you must repent. That is a Christian lifestyle that cleanses us from sin, to maintain a conscience without offense toward God and man.
Matthew 5:23, 24. “Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

ok?

TLSITD · May 12, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
There is a difference between applying scriptural principles regarding sin/discernment/exhortation/encouragement and judging others (both Christian and unbelievers). The term "judge" and the phrase "judging others" has obvious and objective connotations which make it a poor descriptive term for the concept you are referring to and are referred to in scripture. That is why it's a bad idea to become a "judge others" champion. You can post a thread about standing up against sin in the church and in other believers without making "Thou Shalt Judge" be your mandate. I understand why judgy Christians want to protect the term and concept. Many are prideful and enjoy taking God's place as judge and standard bearer. That is why the emphasis on the term is important to them, and why anyone who approaches this discussion with grace and hope is immediately tagged as a "sin excuser." When discussing important topics that impact our testimony and have the ability to hurt others, it is important to be mindful of the terms they use, not just by their dictionary definition, but by underlying meaning and connotation. Judge not, lest ye be judged" is not talking about scriptural principles regarding sin/discernment/exhortation/encouragement, it cannot be because it expressly forbids judging others, and the word can't contradict itself. Therefore, it is important to take into account the verses that talk about the emphasis and >spirit< behind the scriptural principles and discernment we are discussing. Unfortunately, its low hanging fruit to embrace pride and campaign for the "right" to judge. It's like looking at a black and white picture of a rainbow: you can still tell it's a rainbow but you miss what it really is. The correct response to verse that talk about not judging others is not to explain them away with other proof verses or bogus interpretations to protect the right to judge. We are called to not judge others, and to have discernment and take sin seriously in our own lives and the lives of other believers. It's not an either or, and it's not two camps. It's being proud or being humble. I've never discussed this topic with a "pro judgement" person that approached the discussion this way. If I do, I would hope they wouldn't use the term judge because it's a stupid word to use to address the issue.

Your response is too convoluted for me to sort out, and I don't believe that my attempting to do so would have any benefit to you.

But I will recommend this to you: Go through all of the New Testament scriptures that speak about judging, in this way or that, and compare what they say. If one of those scriptures contradicts your interpretation of Matthew 7:1-5, your interpretation is incorrect. Scripture never contradicts itself.

Having a correct understanding of scriptural teachings requires comparing Scripture with Scripture on the same subject (besides the Holy Spirit's interpreting of what we read to us).

Remember, with this subject and all other matters of doctrine, our goal should be knowing the truth in order to live the truth to please God, not to win a debate or to be a know it all. There's no benefit to us in winning a debate if we're still wrong. (And yes, that can be done).

(God also knows our motives and heart attitude in seeking understanding from His word, and He can and does withhold understanding from the proud, from those who are living in known disobedience, and from those whose motives are impure.)

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