What constitutes profaning the holy?

TLSITD

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The line between the sacred and the profane is virtually non-existent in mainstream "Protestant" Christianity today.

As far as "worship" is concerned, pretty much anything goes: If you want rock and roll, you can find it. Theatrical special effects? Lattes and snacks during the service? Wear what ever you please? Comedy? You got it. God doesn't care, as long as your intentions are good, right? And the end justifies the means.

Does it?

Contemporary Christian music sounds identical to secular music: Rap, rock, pop, R&B, country; even death metal. If you don't pay attention to the lyrics (and sometimes even if you do) you can't tell whether the song is Christian or secular. And that is the intention of the musicians who produce it.

Is there any form of music that wouldn't be an appropriate medium for worshiping or praising God? The apparent answer for most Christians is, No. You can put the lyrics of the hymn "Amazing Grace" to the tune of the rock song "House of the Rising Sun" (which is a song about a whorehouse), and Christians will not only accept it but praise it.

Once upon a time, Christians used to actually have reverence for God and made a distinction between the holy and the profane, to not mix them.

But today, no such distinction is made. Anything goes if the motives are sincere; or if the people want it.

Does God approve of this? Do the Scriptures support His approving of what so many Christians think is acceptable to Him?

Clubbing with Jesus? Rocking out in the Holy Spirit? Doing the Holy Spirit hokey pokey or electric slide?

We seem to have forgotten that we worship the very same holy God whose glory filled the temple of Solomon, and before whose throne the cherubim and all the host of heaven cry, "Holy! Holy! Holy!"

What happened to our reverence for Him? I don't mean in the form of religious rituals and ceremonies, or temples built by human hands, but in terms of the attitude toward God that David had according to the depth of the knowledge of Him that David had?

The covenant has changed, but God's holiness has not. Where is the reverence due Him of whom we say, "Hallowed be Thy name?"

Yes, David danced before the LORD with all of his might, but I can guarantee you that he wasn't busting club moves or doing the hokey pokey before the ark. The idea is ludicrous and appalling. (At least it should be.)

The cavalier modern attitude toward the profaning of the holy goes hand in hand with the adulterous and rebellious spirit of the churches in the last days, when God's people will no longer endure sound doctrine but, having itching ears, will gather to themselves teachers to tell them what they want to hear. (2 Timothy 4:3,4)

Rather than coming out of the world and being consecrated to God in mind and behavior, many Christians seem to want to be as much like the world as much as possible and to be as separate from it as little as possible; and they've fashioned a God in their minds who is like themselves, conforming God to their own ways and desires, rather than conforming to His.

"Her priests do violence to My law and profane My holy things; they not not distinguish between the holy and the common; they teach that there is no difference between the unclean and the clean..."
(Ezekiel 22:26)

Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our "God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:28,29)

 
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Sketcher

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The line between the sacred and the profane is virtually non-existent in mainstream "Protestant" Christianity today.

As far as "worship" is concerned, pretty much anything goes: If you want rock and roll, you can find it. Theatrical special effects? Lattes and snacks during the service? Wear what ever you please? Comedy? You got it. God doesn't care, as long as your intentions are good, right? And the end justifies the means.

Does it?

Contemporary Christian music sounds identical to secular music: Rap, rock, pop, R&B, country; even death metal. If you don't pay attention to the lyrics (and sometimes even if you do) you can't tell whether the song is Christian or secular. And that is the intention of the musicians who produce it.

Is there any form of music that wouldn't be an appropriate medium for worshiping or praising God? The apparent answer for most Christians is, No. You can put the lyrics of the hymn "Amazing Grace" to the tune of the rock song "House of the Rising Sun" (which is a song about a whorehouse), and Christians will not only accept it but praise it.

Once upon a time, Christians used to actually have reverence for God and made a distinction between the holy and the profane, to not mix them.

But today, no such distinction is made. Anything goes if the motives are sincere; or if the people want it.
Personally, I sing contemporary praise songs at church, and listen to very different music recreationally during the week. If I'm driving with the radio on, and I hear music that sounds like CCM on a secular station, I immediately change it - it's church-like music without the God-honoring lyrics to give it value. While I very much like Christian rock music in its heaviest of forms, I wouldn't want it played in a church service - too many people wouldn't be edified by it. Save the mosh pits for the actual rock shows. Also: it's a common complaint that worship services resemble rock shows. I doubt that anyone who has put this forth has been to an actual rock show.

We seem to have forgotten that we worship the very same holy God whose glory filled the temple of Solomon, and before whose throne the cherubim and all the host of heaven cry, "Holy! Holy! Holy!"

What happened to our reverence for Him? I don't mean in the form of religious rituals and ceremonies, or temples built by human hands, but in terms of the attitude toward God that David had according to the depth of the knowledge of Him that David had?

The covenant has changed, but God's holiness has not. Where is the reverence due Him of whom we say, "Hallowed be Thy name?"
I'm definitely good with more reverence. Of course, one must then consider what true reverence looks like. The claims of certain teachers in years' past that it looks like playing the piano or guitar in a certain way, or that it cannot have a drum ever, were rightly rejected. Church music has evolved over hundreds of years. In the early church, the concept of even having church music at all was controversial, since they wanted to look so different from the pagans who were not shy at all about having music. However, this was not a Biblical restriction, and today it's an untenable position if you value adhering to Scripture, and consistency (I attended a non-instrumental church once - I won't get started on that yet).

Yes, David danced before the LORD with all of his might, but I can guarantee you that he wasn't busting club moves or doing the hokey pokey before the ark. The idea is ludicrous and appalling. (At least it should be.)
I'm not sure what they were exactly, but they were vigorous enough to expose areas of his body that were not considered decent. I do not recommend making this argument.

Rather than coming out of the world and being consecrated to God in mind and behavior, many Christians seem to want to be as much like the world as much as possible and to be as separate from it as little as possible; and they've fashioned a God in their minds who is like themselves, conforming God to their own ways and desires, rather than conforming to His.

Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our "God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:28,29)
Again, what does this look like? Please give New Testament examples.

"Her priests do violence to My law and profane My holy things; they not not distinguish between the holy and the common; they teach that there is no difference between the unclean and the clean..."(Ezekiel 22:26)
With the curtain to the temple being torn, that got rid of the hierarchy of restrictions that got stricter as one got closer to God. When Ezekiel spoke, that obviously hadn't happened yet. One must consider the symbolism at work in each covenant.
 
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TLSITD

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Personally, I sing contemporary praise songs at church, and listen to very different music recreationally during the week. If I'm driving with the radio on, and I hear music that sounds like CCM on a secular station, I immediately change it - it's church-like music without the God-honoring lyrics to give it value. While I very much like Christian rock music in its heaviest of forms, I wouldn't want it played in a church service - too many people wouldn't be edified by it. Save the mosh pits for the actual rock shows. Also: it's a common complaint that worship services resemble rock shows. I doubt that anyone who has put this forth has been to an actual rock show.


I'm definitely good with more reverence. Of course, one must then consider what true reverence looks like. The claims of certain teachers in years' past that it looks like playing the piano or guitar in a certain way, or that it cannot have a drum ever, were rightly rejected. Church music has evolved over hundreds of years. In the early church, the concept of even having church music at all was controversial, since they wanted to look so different from the pagans who were not shy at all about having music. However, this was not a Biblical restriction, and today it's an untenable position if you value adhering to Scripture, and consistency (I attended a non-instrumental church once - I won't get started on that yet).


I'm not sure what they were exactly, but they were vigorous enough to expose areas of his body that were not considered decent. I do not recommend making this argument.


Again, what does this look like? Please give New Testament examples.


With the curtain to the temple being torn, that got rid of the hierarchy of restrictions that got stricter as one got closer to God. When Ezekiel spoke, that obviously hadn't happened yet.

God forbade the OT priests to go up stairs to His altar so that their private parts would not be exposed (Exodus 20:26). If David had been doing any kind of lewd dance before the LORD that exposed his private parts I'm sure God would have dealt with him for it and would not have been pleased.

Michal's comment about David's dance may have had to do with the nature of the priestly garment he was wearing or with the fact that she didn't think his unrestrained behavior in public was fitting for a king. God obviously didn't share her opinion.

The rending of the curtain of the temple didn't do away with appropriate reverence for God. You won't find support for that idea anywhere in the NT. (Please refer back to what I said about this in the OP.)

Freedom from OT laws and ceremonial restrictions shouldn't be misconstrued to mean that everything and anything that isn't specifically referred to as sin or forbidden in the NT is acceptable or pleasing to God for Christians to do. This is a gross misunderstanding of Christianity and leads to error in behavior and the misrepresentation of Christianity and of God to the world.

I don't believe that there is one specific style of music that is appropriate for worship, but I do believe that there is music that isn't appropriate for it. Please refer back to what I wrote about this in the OP. Knowing what is and what is not requires, like everything else in Christianity, spiritual discernment from God.

(Regarding rock music, the origin of the name "rock and roll" was as a euphemism for the sexual act. I believe that the origins of things and the original purpose of their creation matter to God. Not everything can be sanctified or "Christianized", and not everything is acceptable to Him just because we have good intentions.)



.
 
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God forbade the OT priests to go up stairs to His altar so that their private parts would not be exposed (Exodus 20:26). If David had been doing any kind of lewd dance before the LORD that exposed his private parts I'm sure God would have dealt with him for it and would not have been pleased.

Michal's comment about David's dance may have had to do with the nature of the priestly garment he was wearing or with the fact that she didn't think his unrestrained behavior in public was fitting for a king. God obviously didn't share her opinion.
It need not be the private parts. In the Middle East, for men it's not decent to show skin between the navel and the knees. There may have been a similar idea of modesty that David's dancing flouted. Michal's rebuke centered on the uncovering, not the dancing.

The rending of the curtain of the temple didn't do away with appropriate reverence for God. You won't find support for that idea anywhere in the NT. (Please refer back to what I said about this in the OP.)

Freedom from OT laws and ceremonial restrictions shouldn't be misconstrued to mean that everything and anything that isn't specifically referred to as sin or forbidden in the NT is acceptable or pleasing to God for Christians to do. This is a gross misunderstanding of Christianity and leads to error in behavior and the misrepresentation of Christianity and of God to the world.
I didn't say the tearing of the curtain in the temple did away with appropriate reverence for God. I did say that it destroyed the heirarchy of strictness that increased as one gets closer to God. My point is that much of what the Law says about common vs. sacred was tied to that hierarchy. With that massive change that God initiated, we need to recognize that a change came about in how he chooses to relate to his people. Since reverence is about honoring God, we need to pay attention to what he is telling us to do now, in the New Covenant.

I don't believe that there is one specific style of music that is appropriate for worship, but I do believe that there is music that isn't appropriate for it. Please refer back to what I wrote about this in the OP. Knowing what is and what is not requires, like everything else in Christianity, spiritual discernment from God.
I also agree that there is music that is not appropriate for worship at church, I said as much. But without a Biblical standard to adhere to, what is and isn't acceptable simply devolves into mere matters of opinion. And many that claim to have discernment or annointing simply use that to try and give their opinion more weight. What happens when two such people disagree?

(Regarding rock music, the origin of the name "rock and roll" was as a euphemism for the sexual act. I believe that the origins of things and the original purpose of their creation matter to God. Not everything can be sanctified or "Christianized", and not everything is acceptable to Him just because we have good intentions.)
The purpose of a song is created by the songwriter and the band. I think trying to put praise lyrics to a Gorgoroth song is spiritually unproductive at best (and no, I don't listen to them). But bar songs have been co-opted to become church hymns, which later became recognized as traditional. Again, without a Biblical standard to adhere to, it's hard to make a call that is more definitive than that.
 
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Noxot

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The feeling of sacredness is an evolutionary adaptation that helps people bond with their tribe. That's also largely what religious rituals are, outward displays that you are obedient to the laws of God and that you belong to the tribe and that you are a good tribe member because you do the things that the tribe thinks are good. And so when someone deviates from those who have a specific feeling of sacredness, this is a sin against that which they hold to be holy in their heart.

God knows mans nature, so he seeks to sanctify us in our doings. God wants us to worship Him in spirit and in truth.

When something is reduced to being an mere evolutionary/fleshly habit is when profanity seeps in. What one holds to be sacred is important. Sacredness and Truth have a lot of similarity. those whose truth seems to disagree with another will naturally provoke offense, because they are attached to that which they believe is good. So if they cannot find goodness in this thing that appears to be alien to their own tribe, they must resist that which is profane and defiling to them.

So it is very important that we hold the very most beloved and special things as holy, least we hold the tail to be the head and the head the tail. I think a good start would be the greatest Commandments that Jesus spoke of. For instance human Fellowship is very sacred, since it is one of the main desires that God showed us that he has. Wisdom and righteous acts are sacred, because God wills and gives us those things. Praying and seeking God is sacred because God is the most important one. In general sacredness should be God focused. But not in the spirit of hypocrites and Pharisees, Jesus said our righteousness must exceed theirs.

Since God is a creator and we are made in His image it means that man is also a creator and so we should use that to cling to and worship God. He told us to love him with all that we are, who am I to tell another man how he should praise or worship God? The ideal is that whatever I do I will do for and with God and secondarily to his Everlasting Kingdom that he loves.
 
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Noxot

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Jesus already told us what defiles and what makes clean. I don't have to arbitrarily offend those who think I need to be restricted by their standards, duties and Joys. But I won't be hanging around those people. Let them serve God how they wish, if what they do is good then they will be okay. It's their own fault if they were lazy and refused to seek after God. Good on them if they are walking and doing things with the Lord, but as for me I ought rather to obey God than men.

If I give in to what other people tell me to do then I have forsaken my fellowship with God. It is not heteronomy or autonomy but a Free theonomy in the Holy Spirit that should be guiding and conducting all of us. God and men must be close and walk hand-in-hand. Therefore it is a sin to act as if God is someone far away. It would be evil of me to blindly conform to authoritarian whims when I am God's very Temple. Should I sacrifice myself for what I think is shallow? That would be a spit on the face to God. My conscience must be clear in God. Be warned that God is a jealous God and if you try to take his people away from him he will be against you and he will burn up all the thorns.

So it is my duty to resist the Antichrist no matter if he is from the left, the right, or the center.
 
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TLSITD

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It need not be the private parts. In the Middle East, for men it's not decent to show skin between the navel and the knees. There may have been a similar idea of modesty that David's dancing flouted. Michal's rebuke centered on the uncovering, not the dancing.


I didn't say the tearing of the curtain in the temple did away with appropriate reverence for God. I did say that it destroyed the heirarchy of strictness that increased as one gets closer to God. My point is that much of what the Law says about common vs. sacred was tied to that hierarchy. With that massive change that God initiated, we need to recognize that a change came about in how he chooses to relate to his people. Since reverence is about honoring God, we need to pay attention to what he is telling us to do now, in the New Covenant.


I also agree that there is music that is not appropriate for worship at church, I said as much. But without a Biblical standard to adhere to, what is and isn't acceptable simply devolves into mere matters of opinion. And many that claim to have discernment or annointing simply use that to try and give their opinion more weight. What happens when two such people disagree?


The purpose of a song is created by the songwriter and the band. I think trying to put praise lyrics to a Gorgoroth song is spiritually unproductive at best (and no, I don't listen to them). But bar songs have been co-opted to become church hymns, which later became recognized as traditional. Again, without a Biblical standard to adhere to, it's hard to make a call that is more definitive than that.
This is my opinion: If you can't imagine a particular kind of music or song being sung or played in the courts of heaven before the throne of God, it shouldn't be used for worship here on earth.

What we choose to listen to for our own enjoyment is another issue; but even in that case, we ought to be considering whether what we introduce into the temple of the Holy Spirit through our ears is acceptable to Him.

As Christians, we are supposed to put God before all things and be primarily concerned with what is pleasing to Him, not what is pleasing to us. Those two things aren't always mutually exclusive, but if we live our Christian lives with ourselves at heart, thinking of God as an impediment to our happiness and our life rather than the source and purpose of it, we will be very deficient in our judgments about all things. And as those judgments of faith have both immediate and eternal consequences for us, we are wise to give them serious weight.
 
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...if the motives are sincere...

I think in addition to motive, also attitude is crucial in this. If motive and attitude is right, I believe God can accept many things. But I believe also that some things may be not good in any case, I just don’t know at the moment any such thing.
 
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Sketcher

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This is my opinion: If you can't imagine a particular kind of music or song being sung or played in the courts of heaven before the throne of God, it shouldn't be used for worship here on earth.
I can imagine a wider variety of what I listen to stylistically being played before God than what I believe is acceptable for church. I believe 1 Corinthians 14 gives us general concepts that are equally valid for music as they are for tongue-speaking, and I believe Paul wrote it because we humans are limited in what we can process simultaneously, and what we can understand, and he taught that the church should be built up through the worship service. In Heaven, those barriers will be irrelevant. To sum it up, here are my personal rules for what is appropriate for worship at church, derived in part from the chapter:
- Clear, clean vocals.
- The words to the songs should be provided.
- If anything is in a foreign language to most of the congregation, translation should be provided.
- The songs should direct us to at least one attribute of God or action by God, so that God may be worshiped for it.
- The more the focus is on God rather than our reaction to God, the better. Not everyone reacts/relates to God the same way, and it frees more people to sing more sincerely.

There's a wide array of music that falls within these bounds. Contemporary music is included in this, as long as the right songs are picked.

What we choose to listen to for our own enjoyment is another issue; but even in that case, we ought to be considering whether what we introduce into the temple of the Holy Spirit through our ears is acceptable to Him.
Of course. For instance, I don't like to listen to songs that blaspheme my God recreationally.

As Christians, we are supposed to put God before all things and be primarily concerned with what is pleasing to Him, not what is pleasing to us. Those two things aren't always mutually exclusive, but if we live our Christian lives with ourselves at heart, thinking of God as an impediment to our happiness and our life rather than the source and purpose of it, we will be very deficient in our judgments about all things. And as those judgments of faith have both immediate and eternal consequences for us, we are wise to give them serious weight.
Yes, of course. There is also value in allowing God to penetrate into all of our lives, however. This doesn't mean trying to sanctify activities that are explicitly sinful according to the New Testament, but it does mean Christianizing the areas of our lives that we should not get rid of entirely. And one of the things that can look like is Christian rock.
 
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Noxot

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I have actually been a bit disappointed with the Christian versions of various kinds of music. Some Christian's manage to do very well in both preserving the spirit of the music but also the Christian spirit. Being able to do both well is a great thing, and it would be a sin against God to waste such talent.

Some kinds of music do better for certain kinds of people and certain kinds of conditions. Not all music should be joyful. Catharsis in music has a great value. Some bands in fact say I will not go work but then go to work, just as that one parable of Jesus said. God is the savior of all men, especially Christians. some people are inwardly Christians even if they outwardly reject Christianity which was perhaps due to a weakness of some Christians.

I know many Christians would disagree with me, but the Bible has already explained it pretty well.
 
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