Who Goes To Hell?

thomas_t

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That's OSAS, not UR.
Do you believe someone can lose their salvation?
That's not the topic, please.
You say: once reconciled always reconciled, since you're posting about Universal Reconciliation, if I get you right.
But what you're doing is pure speculation.
It is not fruitful to resort to speculation.
If you're right, it's bad because it's meddling in God's affairs (judgement).
If it's wrong what you say, it's even worse because it's false teaching what you're doing. You will have to answer to God in that case.
It's a lose lose situation for you, in my opinion, you can only lose.
It's not good for church either, I guess. The church should stop speculating about scripture and rather refer to what is stated in it.

How can we, by an act of our own free will, undo what only God can do in the first place?
did you notice the interaction between two sides when it comes to God's reconciliation?
In the very next verse (2 Corintheans 2:20), Paul speaks about humans having to accept reconciliation.
 
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agapelove

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I appreciate you not being docmatic about Universal Reconciliation.

but it is written in past tense and Universal Reconciliation, as I see it, teaches that once reconciled ... regardless of people's faith... it's impossible to fall out of this reconciliation in future and for all eternities.
I don't see this in the Bible.

Verb tense is not an issue for God in fact in the very same verse it says God "was reconciling", past continuous. It is an ongoing action symbolized in the single previous moment of the cross.

For those who are hindered by Hebrews 6:4-6, there is a simple explanation.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It is impossible, once saved, to save you again even if you fall away, because the work of the Cross was finished once and for all. To say crucifying Christ one time was not enough to accomplish the work of your reconciliation is to crucify to yourself the Son of God again, and put him to open shame. His death was enough to cover all sins of past, present, and future.

Hebrews 10:10: "For God's will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time."
 
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Der Alte

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Verb tense is not an issue for God in fact in the very same verse it says God "was reconciling", past continuous. It is an ongoing action symbolized in the single previous moment of the cross.
For those who are hindered by Hebrews 6:4-6, there is a simple explanation.
Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
It is impossible, once saved, to save you again even if you fall away, because the work of the Cross was finished once and for all. To say crucifying Christ one time was not enough to accomplish the work of your reconciliation is to crucify to yourself the Son of God again, and put him to open shame. His death was enough to cover all sins of past, present, and future.
Hebrews 10:10: "For God's will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time."
"IT IS IMPOSSIBLE ... If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;" This what the verse literally says. By rearranging words this verse can be made to say almost anything.
 
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ClementofA

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"IT IS IMPOSSIBLE ... If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;" This what the verse literally says. By rearranging words this verse can be made to say almost anything.


Oldmantook posted:

"Heb 6:4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen c away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Be not dismayed Malik. Based on what you have written about yourself, this passage does not apply to you. Note the present tense verbs in this passage of scripture. The reason that they cannot be brought back to repentance is that they are still crucifying and subjecting Jesus to public disgrace. They are not repentant but continue in these present tense actions of "crucifying" and "shaming" Jesus. Thus it is not possible for God to forgive them as long as they are unrepentant. Given your history and present situation/attitude, you are repentant - unlike those in Heb 6. Just ask God to forgive you for your past and start walking in a lifestyle of obedience to His commands."

{MOVED} Hebrews 6 is there hope?

Re Heb.6 see also:

Could most modern translations be in error?

and

How the universal salvation doctrine of Scripture harmonizes with Hebrews 6:

impossible to renew unto repentance (Heb.6:3-6)
 
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thomas_t

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To say crucifying Christ one time was not enough to accomplish the work of your reconciliation
Let me put it differently so then:
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:26.
No sacrifice for these types of sins, though.
Don't let Jesus pay the bill for sins committed on purpose, Hebrews 10:26 is clear enough. Jesus already paid the price for all sins that are pre-conversion. Don't make him carry more burden than that one, please. That's my take, at least.
"was reconciling", past continuous. It is an ongoing action symbolized in the single previous moment of the cross.
Don't paint "was reconciling" to be future tense at least. Thanks.
I stay with my opinion, "once reconciled always reconciled" is pure presumption.
I also noted that you jumped into the debate I was having with atheists/ doubters on faith in the other thread. Along with others, you interrupted the debate and a mod had to come to stop it (it was @Mollie1). It started off as a good debate. However, in the outreach section, posters from the Christian side debating each other's stances is discouraged.
I don't appreciate being hindered from working conversing with atheists. I don't know
where all this Universal "Reconciliation" thing comes from.
Let me work in peace, please.
 
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agapelove

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I also noted that you jumped into the debate I was having with atheists/ doubters on faith in the other thread. Along with others, you interrupted the debate and a mod had to come to stop it (it was @Mollie1). It started off as a good debate. However, in the outreach section, posters from the Christian side debating each other's stances is discouraged.
I don't appreciate being hindered from working conversing with atheists. I don't know
where all this Universal "Reconciliation" thing comes from.
Let me work in peace, please.

Sorry mate but if your work consists of trying to convince a bunch of atheists that eternal torment is reasonable then you are the only one hindering yourself.
 
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thomas_t

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that eternal torment is reasonable then you are the only one hindering yourself.
I permit myself to remind that your colleague and also you were the ones debating my stances there. This is what you can do here... but please don't do that in that section.
I'm not saying I don't make mistakes, though.
Anyways, one thing is sure ... you didn't provide any valid alternative to hades or sheol in eternity that would ensure a reasonable protection for the victims, I think.
And that's the point where Universal "Reconciliation", falsely so called, ignores them I think.
You say, in New Jerusalem there won't be perpetrators, but you can't rule out that heaven is limited to the extensions of Jerusalem!
There will be a new earth, Bible says... and why should the saved ones be restricted to never leave Jerusalem for fear of falling victim to someone again. People in heaven shouldn't be obliged to never leave a town, I think.
if your work consists of trying to convince a bunch of atheists that eternal torment is reasonable
That's not my work. It consists of inviting.
 
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1213

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...Furthermore, both verses begin with the phrase "just as" and insert the phrase "so also" between the two comparatives. So, the idea of "in the same way" drives the comparisons. Therefore "many" = "all".

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Ok, thank you. So, you believe all are righteous and get eternal life? If so, what do you think it means when Jesus says:

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 7:21
 
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ClementofA

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Let me put it differently so then:
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:26.
No sacrifice for these types of sins, though.
Don't let Jesus pay the bill for sins committed on purpose, Hebrews 10:26 is clear enough.

So you are interpreting Heb.10:26 to say there are certain "types of sins" that Jesus will never forgive, even if the sinner confesses them?


Jesus already paid the price for all sins that are pre-conversion. Don't make him carry more burden than that one, please. That's my take, at least.

Is it your opinion that sins committed post-conversion cannot be forgiven. That Jesus didn't die for those sins?
 
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Saint Steven

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Ok, thank you. So, you believe all are righteous and get eternal life? If so, what do you think it means when Jesus says:

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 7:21
I suppose Matt. 7:21 means they will not enter immediately. Although Jesus said EVERYONE will be salted with fire. So, I think we will all need some fine-tuning.


It says the many (all) will be made righteous. Justification and life has already been purchased. The making righteous is yet to come.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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ClementofA

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Ok, thank you. So, you believe all are righteous and get eternal life? If so, what do you think it means when Jesus says:

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 7:21

Following are various universalist takes on the passage:

Matthew 7:21 never enter heaven?

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
 
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agapelove

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Anyways, one thing is sure ... you didn't provide any valid alternative to hades or sheol in eternity that would ensure a reasonable protection for the victims, I think.
And that's the point where Universal "Reconciliation", falsely so called, ignores them I think.

I recently read one of George MacDonald's Unspoken Sermons on Justice. I thought it was worthwhile and relevant enough to repost here.

"Suppose my watch has been taken from my pocket; I lay hold of the thief; he is dragged before the magistrate, proved guilty, and sentenced to a just imprisonment: must I walk home satisfied with the result? Have I had justice done me? The thief may have had justice done him--but where is my watch? That is gone, and I remain a man wronged. Who has done me the wrong? The thief. Who can set right the wrong? The thief, and only the thief; nobody but the man that did the wrong. God may be able to move the man to right the wrong, but God himself cannot right it without the man. Suppose my watch found and restored, is the account settled between me and the thief? I may forgive him, but is the wrong removed? By no means. But suppose the thief to bethink himself, to repent. He has, we shall say, put it out of his power to return the watch, but he comes to me and says he is sorry he stole it and begs me to accept for the present what little he is able to bring, as a beginning of atonement: how should I then regard the matter? Should I not feel that he had gone far to make atonement--done more to make up for the injury he had inflicted upon me, than the mere restoration of the watch, even by himself, could reach to? Would there not lie, in the thief's confession and submission and initial restoration, an appeal to the divinest in me--to the eternal brotherhood? Would it not indeed amount to a sufficing atonement as between man and man? If he offered to bear what I chose to lay upon him, should I feel it necessary, for the sake of justice, to inflict some certain suffering as demanded by righteousness? I should still have a claim upon him for my watch, but should I not be apt to forget it? He who commits the offence can make up for it--and he alone.

One thing must surely be plain--that the punishment of the wrong-doer makes no atonement for the wrong done. How could it make up to me for the stealing of my watch that the man was punished? The wrong would be there all the same. I am not saying the man ought not to be punished--far from it; I am only saying that the punishment nowise makes up to the man wronged. Suppose the man, with the watch in his pocket, were to inflict the severest flagellation on himself: would that lessen my sense of injury? Would it set anything right? Would it anyway atone? Would it give him a right to the watch? Punishment may do good to the man who does the wrong, but that is a thing as different as important.

Another thing plain is, that, even without the material rectification of the wrong where that is impossible, repentance removes the offence which no suffering could. I at least should feel that I had no more quarrel with the man. I should even feel that the gift he had made me, giving into my heart a repentant brother, was infinitely beyond the restitution of what he had taken from me. True, he owed me both himself and the watch, but such a greater does more than include such a less. If it be objected, 'You may forgive, but the man has sinned against God!'--Then it is not a part of the divine to be merciful, I return, and a man may be more merciful than his maker! A man may do that which would be too merciful in God! Then mercy is not a divine attribute, for it may exceed and be too much; it must not be infinite, therefore cannot be God's own."

You may read the entire sermon here: Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice
 
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agapelove

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By what I read from the Bible, I would say many.

We must not be reading from the same Bible then.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Romans 3:10 As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one."
 
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thomas_t

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Is it your opinion that sins committed post-conversion cannot be forgiven. That Jesus didn't die for those sins?
It's my opinion that he died for pre-conversin sins only.
If believers commit sins after conversion, 1 John 1:9. Christians need to confess and He will cleanse, whatever that means. Punishment perhaps.
The unforgivable sin cannot be forgiven, see Matthew 12:31.
I don't agree with your stance "Universal Reconciliation" btw.
My stance on Hebrews 10:26 is that there is no sacrifice for sins that believers committed on purpose, as it says. So, Jesus death does not cover sins committed (by Christians) on pupose, as it says.
 
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It's my opinion that he died for pre-conversin sins only.
If believers commit sins after conversion, 1 John 1:9. Christians need to confess and He will cleanse, whatever that means. Punishment perhaps.
The unforgivable sin cannot be forgiven, see Matthew 12:31.
I don't agree with your stance "Universal Reconciliation" btw.
My stance on Hebrews 10:26 is that there is no sacrifice for sins that believers committed on purpose, as it says. So, Jesus death does not cover sins committed (by Christians) on pupose, as it says.
What good is the confession of sins if there is no sacrifice for sins? Was there a sacrifice for sins in your original confession? You put the "saved" in a worse position than the "lost".
 
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ClementofA

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It's my opinion that he died for pre-conversin sins only.
If believers commit sins after conversion, 1 John 1:9. Christians need to confess and He will cleanse, whatever that means. Punishment perhaps.
The unforgivable sin cannot be forgiven, see Matthew 12:31.
I don't agree with your stance "Universal Reconciliation" btw.
My stance on Hebrews 10:26 is that there is no sacrifice for sins that believers committed on purpose, as it says. So, Jesus death does not cover sins committed (by Christians) on pupose, as it says.

What about Peter when he denied the Lord 3 times? Or Thomas when he refused to believe the Lord was resurrected? Or King David who committed premeditated adultery and murder? Or these:

1 Tim.1:19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away, made shipwreck concerning the faith,
20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan, that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

1 Cor.5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

As for this passage:

Hebrews 10:26-27 – For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

Does that say the sacrifice of Christ is "no longer applicable" forever & ever like a fictional unpardonable sin, or "no longer applicable" as long as it is rejected & not being applied?

Here's one opinion in that regard:

"The verb "sin" in this verse is present tense (as are the verbs "remains" and "will consume"). Since present tense in Greek typically indicates an ongoing, continuous action, the passage can better be translated as: "For if we continuously sin deliberately, after having once received the knowledge of the truth, there continuously remains no further sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will continuously consume the adversaries." "

"So if one ceases to continuously sin by remaining apart from the Messiah, then Messiah's sacrifice for one's sins becomes operative again. It is now available for one since one has stopped the continuous sin of apostasy and can now be united with Christ. (Note the parallelism of the continuous sinning with the continuous remaining of no further sacrifice; when the former vanishes, the latter does as well—and the same is true of a person who continuously fails to repent of sin in general.) Thus if an apostate (to Judaism or whatever else) ceases to be an apostate, he can be saved. There is no unforgivable sin taught in this text."

Hebrews 10 and 6

Another comment from the same thread says:

"My understanding of Heb 10:26 is simple. There is no further sacrifice for sins. Jesus provided the only sacrifice, and if we don't want that sacrifice, well -- there's nothing else. There is no further sacrifice for sins. That's it; take it or leave it (but eventually you WILL decide to take it because the alternative simply makes no sense at all.) The fearful judgment (v.27) will consume the adversaries; it will not consume the beloved (the world for whom God gave His only begotten Son). The last adversary is death and that too will be consumed, leaving nothing but life!"

You might also find the following discussions re the context of Hebrews 10 of interest, including commentary by Jason Pratt:

Hebrews 10:28-29

Hebrews 6 and 10 - A Universalist Reaction?

Hebrews 10:26-27

Heb.10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. (NASB)
Heb.10:18 But where there [is] remission of these, [there is] no longer a sacrifice for sin. (DBY)
Heb.10:18 and where forgiveness of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (YLT)

Heb.10:26 there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, {RSV}
Heb.10:26 there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,{AV}

"There is no more offering for sin...there is left no place for the Levitical sacrifices under the new covenant." (Vincent's Word Studies)

Heb.10:12 But when this Priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God.
Heb.7:27 Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer daily sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people;
He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself.

"there is no more offering for sin; there may be other offerings, as of praise and thanksgiving, but none for sin; "there is no need", as the Syriac version; or there is not required, as the Arabic version; there is no need of the reiteration of Christ's sacrifice, nor will he be offered up any more, nor of the repetition of legal sacrifices, nor ought they to continue any longer. The Jews themselves say (w), that

"in the time to come (i.e. in the times of the Messiah) all offerings shall cease, but the sacrifice of praise.''

And one of their writers says (x), when

"the King Messiah, the son of David, shall reign, there will be no need of "an atonement", nor of deliverance, or prosperity, for all these things will be had;'' (Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible)

Hebrews 10:18 Commentaries: Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

The NIV Study Bible notes to Heb.10:18 say that "no additional sacrifice for sins is needed" {p.1870}.

Heb.10:26 For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the full knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains in reserve any other sacrifice for sins. {WEY}

"there remains no further sacrifice for sin": since Christ's work on the cross dying for the world's sins is the sacrifice that ends all sacrifices for sin, there is no other place to go but Christ for the forgiveness we all need, both at salvation as unbelievers and thereafter as members of His Body.

This is allegedly from Marvin Vincent's commentary in his New Testament Word Studies:

"The writer does not touch the question of the possibility of God’s renewing such to repentance. He merely puts his own hypothetical case, and says that, in the nature of such a case, the ordinary considerations and means which are applied to induce men to embrace the gospel no longer appeal to the subjects supposed. He contemplates nothing beyond such agencies, and asserts that these are powerless because the man has brought himself into a condition where they can no longer exert any power."

"Whether God will ever reclaim by ways of his own is a point which is not even touched. Destruction of the faculty of spiritual discernment is the natural outcome of deliberate and persistent sin, and the instrument of its punishment. Note, “renew unto repentance.” God promises pardon on penitence, but not penitence on sin."


Hebrews 10 and 6

"The assertion of Kurtz, that, if this remark were true, the author would be expressing “a dogma in its consequences truly subversive, and destructive of the whole Christian soteriology,” inasmuch as it would “imperatively follow therefrom, that even under the New Covenant only those who transgressed from ignorance and error could find forgiveness with God for Christ’s sake, while all who had been guilty of a conscious and intentional sin must beyond hope of deliverance fall victims to the judgment of everlasting damnation,” is a precipitate one, since the special limitation within which the expression ἑκουσίως ἁμαρτάνειν was used was naturally afforded to the reader, quite apart from the investigation already preceding at Hebrews 6:4 ff., even from our section itself." (Meyer's NT Commentary)

"there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins] Lit., “no sacrifice for sins is any longer left for them.” They have rejected the work of Christ, and it cannot be done for them over again. There is one atoning sacrifice and that they have repudiated. He does not say that they have exhausted the infinite mercy of God, nor can we justly assert that he held such a conclusion; he only says that they have, so long as they continue in such a state, put themselves out of God’s covenant, and that there are no other covenanted means of grace. For they have trampled under foot the offer of mercy in Christ and there is no salvation in any other (Acts 4:12)." (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges)

"There remaineth no more sacrifice for sins (οὐκέτι περὶ ἁμαρτιῶν ἀπολείπεται θυσία)"

"Of course not. For the Levitical sacrifices are abolished. It is Christ's sacrifice or none." (Vincent's Word Studies)

Hebrews 10:26 Commentaries: For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Those who had thrust away faith with a good conscience, and had made shipwreck of the faith, were given over to Satan that they may be trained not to blaspheme {1 Tim.1:19-20}. This seems to be an example of willfully sinning after knowing the truth, as in Hebrews 10, yet those who do such were still being trained or disciplined for their own good. The NIV Study Bible says such action was more remedial than punitive. Similarly is 1 Corinthians 5:4-5:

4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord

1 Tim.1:19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away, made shipwreck concerning the faith,
20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan, that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

Psa.119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.
68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.

In Hebrews chapter 2 we read of a "fair reward" for the disobedient:

2:1 Therefore we must more exceedingly be heeding what is being heard, lest at some time we may be drifting by. 2 For if the word spoken through messengers came to be confirmed, and every transgression and disobedience obtained a fair reward

Heb 10:26b no longer a sacrifice for sin (NAS). Compare the same Greek words at Mk.9:8 translated "any longer":

Mk.9:8 And suddenly, looking around, they saw no one any longer, but Jesus alone with themselves.

Did they not see any man "any longer" after that time except Jesus? Obviously they did see other men, so the words "any longer" does not support the contention re Heb.10:26 that God would "never" again allow some to be beneficiaries of the sacrifice of Christ.

26 For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins, 27 but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, about to be eating the hostile. (CLV) Hebrews 10 For the law, having a shadow of the impending good things, not the selfsame image of the matters, they, with their same sacrifices which they are offering year by year, are never able to perfect to a finality those approaching."

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejecters would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

As regards the so-called unpardonable sin:

Spirit blasphemy in harmony with universal salvation:

http://evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7264
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ure-supports-it.8072784/page-38#post-73116566
http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...ves-holy-spirit-blasphemers.html#post53259200
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ernal-damnation.8092770/page-20#post-73457405
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...aspheming-the-Holy-Spirit&highlight=blasphemy
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-of-the-holy-spirit-is.8051949/#post-72382882
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...emy-of-the-holy-spirit.8041939/#post-72139044
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-penalty-for-blasphemy-of-the-holy-spirit-is.8051949/
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...a-universalism.8070242/page-106#post-73480564
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...a-universalism.8070242/page-106#post-73480564
 
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agapelove

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It's my opinion that he died for pre-conversin sins only.
If believers commit sins after conversion, 1 John 1:9. Christians need to confess and He will cleanse, whatever that means. Punishment perhaps.
The unforgivable sin cannot be forgiven, see Matthew 12:31.
I don't agree with your stance "Universal Reconciliation" btw.
My stance on Hebrews 10:26 is that there is no sacrifice for sins that believers committed on purpose, as it says. So, Jesus death does not cover sins committed (by Christians) on pupose, as it says.

Hi Thomas, I think it’s helpful for you to know the history of sacrificial practices.

In Leviticus 4 we read about what the Israelites called the “Sin Offering”. It outlines for their community what kind of offerings must take place if someone were to “sin unintentionally”.

If you were to sin intentionally, there was no animal that could atone, and you would have to rely on good faith to believe that you were forgiven.

Hebrews 10:26 is talking about forgiveness and sacrifice in the same context, notice how the section is titled “The Just Live By Faith”.
 
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thomas_t

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What about Peter when he denied the Lord 3 times? Or Thomas when he refused to believe the Lord was resurrected? Or King David who committed premeditated adultery and murder? Or these:

1 Tim.1:19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away, made shipwreck concerning the faith,
20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan, that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

1 Cor.5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

As for this passage:

Hebrews 10:26-27 – For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

Does that say the sacrifice of Christ is "no longer applicable" forever & ever like a fictional unpardonable sin, or "no longer applicable" as long as it is rejected & not being applied?

Here's one opinion in that regard:

"The verb "sin" in this verse is present tense (as are the verbs "remains" and "will consume"). Since present tense in Greek typically indicates an ongoing, continuous action, the passage can better be translated as: "For if we continuously sin deliberately, after having once received the knowledge of the truth, there continuously remains no further sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will continuously consume the adversaries." "

"So if one ceases to continuously sin by remaining apart from the Messiah, then Messiah's sacrifice for one's sins becomes operative again. It is now available for one since one has stopped the continuous sin of apostasy and can now be united with Christ. (Note the parallelism of the continuous sinning with the continuous remaining of no further sacrifice; when the former vanishes, the latter does as well—and the same is true of a person who continuously fails to repent of sin in general.) Thus if an apostate (to Judaism or whatever else) ceases to be an apostate, he can be saved. There is no unforgivable sin taught in this text."

Hebrews 10 and 6

Another comment from the same thread says:

"My understanding of Heb 10:26 is simple. There is no further sacrifice for sins. Jesus provided the only sacrifice, and if we don't want that sacrifice, well -- there's nothing else. There is no further sacrifice for sins. That's it; take it or leave it (but eventually you WILL decide to take it because the alternative simply makes no sense at all.) The fearful judgment (v.27) will consume the adversaries; it will not consume the beloved (the world for whom God gave His only begotten Son). The last adversary is death and that too will be consumed, leaving nothing but life!"

You might also find the following discussions re the context of Hebrews 10 of interest, including commentary by Jason Pratt:

Hebrews 10:28-29

Hebrews 6 and 10 - A Universalist Reaction?

Hebrews 10:26-27

Heb.10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. (NASB)
Heb.10:18 But where there [is] remission of these, [there is] no longer a sacrifice for sin. (DBY)
Heb.10:18 and where forgiveness of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (YLT)

Heb.10:26 there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, {RSV}
Heb.10:26 there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,{AV}

"There is no more offering for sin...there is left no place for the Levitical sacrifices under the new covenant." (Vincent's Word Studies)

Heb.10:12 But when this Priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God.
Heb.7:27 Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer daily sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people;
He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself.

"there is no more offering for sin; there may be other offerings, as of praise and thanksgiving, but none for sin; "there is no need", as the Syriac version; or there is not required, as the Arabic version; there is no need of the reiteration of Christ's sacrifice, nor will he be offered up any more, nor of the repetition of legal sacrifices, nor ought they to continue any longer. The Jews themselves say (w), that

"in the time to come (i.e. in the times of the Messiah) all offerings shall cease, but the sacrifice of praise.''

And one of their writers says (x), when

"the King Messiah, the son of David, shall reign, there will be no need of "an atonement", nor of deliverance, or prosperity, for all these things will be had;'' (Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible)

Hebrews 10:18 Commentaries: Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

The NIV Study Bible notes to Heb.10:18 say that "no additional sacrifice for sins is needed" {p.1870}.

Heb.10:26 For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the full knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains in reserve any other sacrifice for sins. {WEY}

"there remains no further sacrifice for sin": since Christ's work on the cross dying for the world's sins is the sacrifice that ends all sacrifices for sin, there is no other place to go but Christ for the forgiveness we all need, both at salvation as unbelievers and thereafter as members of His Body.

This is allegedly from Marvin Vincent's commentary in his New Testament Word Studies:

"The writer does not touch the question of the possibility of God’s renewing such to repentance. He merely puts his own hypothetical case, and says that, in the nature of such a case, the ordinary considerations and means which are applied to induce men to embrace the gospel no longer appeal to the subjects supposed. He contemplates nothing beyond such agencies, and asserts that these are powerless because the man has brought himself into a condition where they can no longer exert any power."

"Whether God will ever reclaim by ways of his own is a point which is not even touched. Destruction of the faculty of spiritual discernment is the natural outcome of deliberate and persistent sin, and the instrument of its punishment. Note, “renew unto repentance.” God promises pardon on penitence, but not penitence on sin."


Hebrews 10 and 6

"The assertion of Kurtz, that, if this remark were true, the author would be expressing “a dogma in its consequences truly subversive, and destructive of the whole Christian soteriology,” inasmuch as it would “imperatively follow therefrom, that even under the New Covenant only those who transgressed from ignorance and error could find forgiveness with God for Christ’s sake, while all who had been guilty of a conscious and intentional sin must beyond hope of deliverance fall victims to the judgment of everlasting damnation,” is a precipitate one, since the special limitation within which the expression ἑκουσίως ἁμαρτάνειν was used was naturally afforded to the reader, quite apart from the investigation already preceding at Hebrews 6:4 ff., even from our section itself." (Meyer's NT Commentary)

"there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins] Lit., “no sacrifice for sins is any longer left for them.” They have rejected the work of Christ, and it cannot be done for them over again. There is one atoning sacrifice and that they have repudiated. He does not say that they have exhausted the infinite mercy of God, nor can we justly assert that he held such a conclusion; he only says that they have, so long as they continue in such a state, put themselves out of God’s covenant, and that there are no other covenanted means of grace. For they have trampled under foot the offer of mercy in Christ and there is no salvation in any other (Acts 4:12)." (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges)

"There remaineth no more sacrifice for sins (οὐκέτι περὶ ἁμαρτιῶν ἀπολείπεται θυσία)"

"Of course not. For the Levitical sacrifices are abolished. It is Christ's sacrifice or none." (Vincent's Word Studies)

Hebrews 10:26 Commentaries: For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Those who had thrust away faith with a good conscience, and had made shipwreck of the faith, were given over to Satan that they may be trained not to blaspheme {1 Tim.1:19-20}. This seems to be an example of willfully sinning after knowing the truth, as in Hebrews 10, yet those who do such were still being trained or disciplined for their own good. The NIV Study Bible says such action was more remedial than punitive. Similarly is 1 Corinthians 5:4-5:

4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord

1 Tim.1:19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away, made shipwreck concerning the faith,
20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan, that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

Psa.119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.
68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.

In Hebrews chapter 2 we read of a "fair reward" for the disobedient:

2:1 Therefore we must more exceedingly be heeding what is being heard, lest at some time we may be drifting by. 2 For if the word spoken through messengers came to be confirmed, and every transgression and disobedience obtained a fair reward

Heb 10:26b no longer a sacrifice for sin (NAS). Compare the same Greek words at Mk.9:8 translated "any longer":

Mk.9:8 And suddenly, looking around, they saw no one any longer, but Jesus alone with themselves.

Did they not see any man "any longer" after that time except Jesus? Obviously they did see other men, so the words "any longer" does not support the contention re Heb.10:26 that God would "never" again allow some to be beneficiaries of the sacrifice of Christ.

26 For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins, 27 but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, about to be eating the hostile. (CLV) Hebrews 10 For the law, having a shadow of the impending good things, not the selfsame image of the matters, they, with their same sacrifices which they are offering year by year, are never able to perfect to a finality those approaching."

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejecters would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

As regards the so-called unpardonable sin:

Spirit blasphemy in harmony with universal salvation:

Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin
Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?
http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...ves-holy-spirit-blasphemers.html#post53259200
Question about eternal damnation
God loves those who are blaspheming the Holy Spirit - Theology Online
the penalty for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...
Universalism in harmony with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
the penalty for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...
The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism
The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism
This is hurling Elephants. You don't agree, but instead of a reasonable debate you're engaging walls of text. Studying what you have written is not my only purpose for this week.
 
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FineLinen

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By what I read from the Bible, I would say many.

Perhaps you should read the rest of the Theos equation?

The identical many "made sinners / accounted sinners" =

The many (polus) "made righteous/ accounted righteous."

Every last one!
 
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