Was the Sabbath given to man at creation as a special day to worship God?

pasifika said:

God gives His Spirit to whoever He desired to give, it His choice...were all people sinned? Yes apart from Jesus...

How can a man live a sinless life if we do Not know what sin is?
What can you get out from knowing sin if we are sinners? Can you still live? Can you take it away that sin or you think you can...The bible state that we all broke the law right...then the law show us the power of Sin...if we couldn't follow the law then also we couldn't stand it power that made us his slaves....ONLY GOD CAN STAND ITS POWER...Him becoming a man tells us we cannot save ourselves from Sin...

I didnt replace the definition of Sin to Hope...how can we have hope on something that puts us to death?
Our hope comes from the good news of our Saviour which had proclaimed by God to fallen man since the beginning...in this hope we stand...
We have this hope is because we know who we put our hopes on...

Click to expand...

Jer 31:31-34 under the NEW Covenant the LAW of God "written on heart and mind"
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
John 14:12 "the saints KEEP the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Rom 8:4-11 the wicked "do not and indeed CAN not submit to the Law of God"

Where that Law is the one having the 5th commandment as "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

YouAreAwesome said:

The parent who gave the new command implies to ignore the previous command.

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ok so then "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7... are we supposed to ignore it or comply ?? to show "Love for God" given that the Word of God says "Love Me and Keep My Commandments" Ex 20:6?

John does not quote it ... should it be removed?

how does that work in the scenario you suggest?

YouAreAwesome said:

We neither ignore it, nor comply,

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Interesting answer.

Would you agree that "the saints keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12?
Where the Commandments of God are the ones having the 5th commandment as "the first commandment with promise" Eph 6:1-2

because there is no command to ignore or comply with.

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"what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
Where the Commandments of God are the ones having the 5th commandment as "the first commandment with promise" Eph 6:1-2

YouAreAwesome said:

The first command is overruled by the more recent command.

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So then later commands of God are meant to destroy the previous Word of God?

===================
Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. (scripture) I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This does not appear to be the place where Christ said He is destroying the commandments of God not even the command to not take God's name in vain.

===================

Mark 7
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

This does not appear to be the place where Christ said He is destroying the commandments of God not even the command to not take God's name in vain.

===================
Matt 19
6 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said,
“You shall not commit murder; Ex 20
You shall not commit adultery; Ex 20
You shall not steal; Ex 20
You shall not bear false witness; Ex 20
19 Honor your father and mother; Ex 20:12
and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18

This does not appear to be the place where Christ said He is destroying the commandments of God not even the command to not take God's name in vain.

====================
You may think I am wrong on this point...
Or you might actually agree with me on this point.

It will be interesting to see which

YouAreAwesome said:

And no I don't preach we should look to an obsolete law for moral pointers.

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So then I assume that means you think I am wrong on this point above. Feel free to clarify.

That's fine - I am happy to have this as the point where "we differ".

klutedavid said:

Actually the old commands are automatically fulfilled by loving others as Christ loved us.
.

Click to expand...

Having one command that is so broad that is includes full compliance with those predicated upon it is not the same as destroying those commands.

But the claim made is that a command comes along that abolishes/negates/ wipes out the commands predicated upon it. So that it is no longer right to comply with those commands predicated upon it.

As if "Love God" wipes out the command to "not take God's name in vain" and makes not taking God's name in vain -- ?? what?? "wrong"?

It would be like saying I do not clean my room as my mother commanded me ... so yeah it's a mess... But I do that because I have chosen to obey another command - the command "Love your mother and show that love by obeying your mother" instead.

Andre_b said:

The command to love one another is the last 6 of the 10. It is very clear.

Romans 13:9 “For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” pretty clear it's the last of the 10. Just like he repeats in 2 John 1:5

So according to you a man loves another man so I suppose we can get married then. Jesus only says to love one another. I love everyone so I guess i can marry them all?

Also John is specifically saying that they are not NEW commandments.
2 John 1:5 “... not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another.” It's always been there from the beginning. Last 6 commandments and faith in Jesus.

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Yep.

In fact the Commandments of God include the TEN where "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment... according to Ephesians 6:1-2.

YouAreAwesome said:

Different author, different book. Best to get Johns meaning from John.

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Exegeting the text of John includes taking the Bible teaching on the same doctrine from all the Bible writers -- by definition.

We do that because ultimately God is author of scripture (2 Peter 1:20-21) it is not "John's doctrine vs Paul's doctrine" as some groups/denominations and even world-religions might think -- so my bible has 66 books ... one of them in 2 Timothy.

2 Tim 3:
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Studyman said:

I have heard of this religion before.

It teaches that God didn't place a choice before man. That HE chooses which man to save and which man to destroy with everlasting destruction based on nothing men do.

What I find fascinating about this religion is that every person who preaches it, have conveniently been chosen themselves. And those who don't believe in this religious doctrine, have simply been chosen to live their entire life in deception.

This is truly "good news" for those who buy into this religious doctrine. Not so good news for me if I choose to believe God placed a choice before me.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Of course, if your religion is the Truth, then this scriptures is false and HE didn't give me a choice, and I can't "Choose Life" because you are saying the "choice" of me living or not has already been decided without any input from me.

I know Calvin and Gameliel were both very famous religious scholars, and "many" over the centuries have chosen to listen to them.

But as a brother, I would warn you against listening to these "other voices". God does place a choice and a race before us. He helps us endure by providing us with the tools and instructions on how to over come. A Spiritual power to see past all the hundreds of "Other voices" out there. To enable us to "resist" the other religious voice. We just need to trust Him and HIS Word enough to be a "doer" of them and not just a hearer.

Thanks for your reply's and your heart felt message. I hope you might consider the scriptures I have posted, as I have considered your words.

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Thank you, I don’t belong to any denominations and certain doctrines, we have the bible to teach us how to live a good life..through the gift of His Spirit...
I am not speaking for those who hold such a belief as we all hold accountable to God according to how we live our life in accordance to His Word...

I will consider those scriptures you posted, and advices also appreciated your time in sharing your understanding of scriptures...
May our Father blesses us more in wisdom and understanding in order to grow in our knowledge of Him...

BobRyan said:

Jer 31:31-34 under the NEW Covenant the LAW of God "written on heart and mind"
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
John 14:12 "the saints KEEP the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Rom 8:4-11 the wicked "do not and indeed CAN not submit to the Law of God"

Where that Law is the one having the 5th commandment as "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

Click to expand...

Hello Bob, I believe the law of God is what God puts in our mind..Romans
Also I believe the law of God is Not something that can be written down but principles that developed through direct teaching from Him about Him..hence why He gives us His Spirit so we can grow to know Him and through this knowledge we can distinguish good from evil...God is good and if we know Him we know good then anything other then good is evil...

Also, the law is spiritual but we (humans) are Unspiritual...so can we follow a spiritual law unless we have spiritual knowledge taught to us by a Spirit?

The commands to love God is the same as believing in the Son of God...You cannot separate the Father and Son, as Jesus said, the Father is in me and I am in the Father...they are One..
So if you love the Father then you also love His child...if you believe in the Son then you’re born of God...1John5

believing in the Son and Love others, keeping theses commands shows that God lives in us and us in Him..that is a promise isn’t?

BobRyan said:

Having one command that is so broad that is includes full compliance with those predicated upon it is not the same as destroying those commands.

Click to expand...

Love itself of God and man would never kill or steal by definition.

When God is saying do not take my name in vain, God is speaking to people that do take His name in vain. That is a warning Bob, that is a law.

Someone that loves Jesus is above that law of taking God's name in vain.

Someone that loves you Bob is not going to hurt you are they.

But the claim made is that a command comes along that abolishes/negates/ wipes out the commands predicated upon it.

Click to expand...

Untrue, loving others prevents you from hurting others, love is what the law demands ultimately

So that it is no longer right to comply with those commands predicated upon it.

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You misunderstand that love cannot hurt but only heals. A thief is not someone who cares about the welfare of others. A murderer is not someone who loves others. In fact, a murderer has enormous hatred of others.

As if "Love God" wipes out the command to "not take God's name in vain" and makes not taking God's name in vain -- ?? what?? "wrong"?

Click to expand...

Love is tender and respectful, love is caring and protective, love never fails. Love automatically meets the law at every point of the law.

It would be like saying I do not clean my room as my mother commanded me ... so yeah it's a mess... But I do that because I have chosen to obey another command - the command "Love your mother and show that love by obeying your mother" instead.

Click to expand...

Love would have cleaned that room before the mother even asked. Love acts before the command is even given.

klutedavid said:

Love itself of God and man would never kill or steal by definition.

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Jesus said that Love for God (Deut 6:4) and Love for your neighbor (Lev 19:18) forms the solid platform for "all the law and the prophets"-- (scripture = "the Law and the prophets"). Matt 22... and the Jews agreed with him.

Instead of scripture ("The Law and the prophets") being "at war" with the Law of Moses found in Deut 6:4 and Lev 19:18 - it is upheld by it.

Someone that loves Jesus is above that law

Click to expand...

wouldn't it be great for that idea -- if that was a quote of the Bible.?

klutedavid said:

, loving others prevents you from hurting others, love is what the law demands ultimately .

Click to expand...

true. It's nice to agree on something now and then.

pasifika said:

Thank you, I don’t belong to any denominations and certain doctrines, we have the bible to teach us how to live a good life..through the gift of His Spirit...
I am not speaking for those who hold such a belief as we all hold accountable to God according to how we live our life in accordance to His Word...

I will consider those scriptures you posted, and advices also appreciated your time in sharing your understanding of scriptures...
May our Father blesses us more in wisdom and understanding in order to grow in our knowledge of Him...

Click to expand...

That is great news, these are good discussions to have among men in these evilest of times.

With HIS Love
SM.

pasifika said:

God gives His Spirit to whoever He desired to give, it His choice...were all people sinned? Yes apart from Jesus...

How can a man live a sinless life if we do Not know what sin is?
What can you get out from knowing sin if we are sinners? Can you still live? Can you take it away that sin or you think you can...The bible state that we all broke the law right...then the law show us the power of Sin...if we couldn't follow the law then also we couldn't stand it power that made us his slaves....ONLY GOD CAN STAND ITS POWER...Him becoming a man tells us we cannot save ourselves from Sin...

I didnt replace the definition of Sin to Hope...how can we have hope on something that puts us to death?
Our hope comes from the good news of our Saviour which had proclaimed by God to fallen man since the beginning...in this hope we stand...
We have this hope is because we know who we put our hopes on...

Click to expand...

Jer 31:31-34 under the NEW Covenant the LAW of God "written on heart and mind"
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
John 14:12 "the saints KEEP the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Rom 8:4-11 the wicked "do not and indeed CAN not submit to the Law of God"

Where that Law is the one having the 5th commandment as "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

pasifika said:

Hello Bob, I believe the law of God is what God puts in our mind..

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Hi Pasifika

In the Protestant Reformation a lot of Christians had different ideas "in their minds".

In Acts 15:1-3 some Christians had one idea in their mind... and other Christians had a different idea in their minds.

One of the principles that came out of the Protestant Reformation - was the idea of testing all doctrine "sola scriptura".

"They studied the scriptures to SEE IF those things spoken by the Apostle Paul - were so" Acts 17:11

An objective external 'standard' that is used to test all doctrine - scripture.

BobRyan said:

Jer 31:31-34 under the NEW Covenant the LAW of God "written on heart and mind"
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
John 14:12 "the saints KEEP the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Rom 8:4-11 the wicked "do not and indeed CAN not submit to the Law of God"

Where that Law is the one having the 5th commandment as "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2



Hi Pasifika

In the Protestant Reformation a lot of Christians had different ideas "in their minds".

In Acts 15:1-3 some Christians had one idea in their mind... and other Christians had a different idea in their minds.

One of the principles that came out of the Protestant Reformation - was the idea of testing all doctrine "sola scriptura".

"They studied the scriptures to SEE IF those things spoken by the Apostle Paul - were so" Acts 17:11

An objective external 'standard' that is used to test all doctrine - scripture.

Click to expand...

Okay Bob, thanks I will keep searching for the truth of His words...appreciate your input here.

pasifika said:

Okay Bob, thanks I will keep searching for the truth of His words...appreciate your input here.

Click to expand...

You are welcome... I love Bible details and doctrine that is tested "sola scriptura" because the Word of God can be trusted. always.

YouAreAwesome said:

Of Noah I believe he had a clear conscience in the same way Nathaniel had a clear conscience. Noah had a clear conscience and listened to God. I believe a person can also have a clear conscience while under the Mosaic Law. I'm not sure if Nathaniel was a jew or not, that wasn't my point. I was just trying to explain how I see it, that a pure conscience (and the desire for a clear conscience) is the opening of our hearts to God.



I thought @pasifika answered this nicely,

I believe the law of God is Not something that can be written down but principles that developed through direct teaching from Him about Him..hence why He gives us His Spirit so we can grow to know Him and through this knowledge we can distinguish good from evil...God is good and if we know Him we know good then anything other then good is evil...
​

Our spiritual hearts live and breath from God's Spirit teaching us and loving us. Those Ten are no longer for us to stare at. They are the ministry of death. May we remain in the ministry of life! It's not about what not to do, it's about loving! If we walk in love, we do well.

Click to expand...

Hello, I think 1Corinthians 2:10-13 explain how we can know the mind of God so we can live accordingly...

1Corinthians 2:10-13...these are the things God has revealed to us by His Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way No one knows the thought of God except the Spirit of God.
What we have received is Not the spirit of this world but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom BUT in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with spiritual taught words...

If we don’t have the Spirit then scripture cannot come to life...it is the Spirit that brought the scripture into life within us..so we can live, acts and be true disciples of Jesus Christ...
Without the Spirit then the Bible is just like any other normal book..

anyway great post from you...
God bless

BobRyan said:

right! Not in that Matthew 19 quote...

So also --
No "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
No "do not worship other gods" Ex 20
No "do not make idols" Ex 20
No "Remember the Sabbath... th seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD YWHW" Ex 20:8-11
No "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:4

In Matt 19 it is only the Commandments of God that are founded on "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

Click to expand...

Do you believe the commandments originated with Moses?



Wasn’t Lucifer thrown out because he coveted a position of authority that was not his to have?


Wasn’t Cain banished because he murdered?


Didn’t Abraham walk in obedience to His commandments before Moses was born?


Aren’t there many more commandments than 10?



The Point:


Just because the law of Moses was abolished doesn’t mean His commandments were abolished.



We are not obligated to observe the Sabbath as required by the law of Moses. The Sabbath was simply a day for man to rest.

What requirements were given in Genesis for man concerning the Sabbath?




JLB

YouAreAwesome said:

Hi, I would like to challenge Christians who keep a weekly Sabbath. I plan to start a new thread for each of the questions. To begin I would like to ask, was the Sabbath given to man at creation as a special day to worship God?

Let's look at the relevant text:

By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work he had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. (Genesis 2:2-3)​

Here God rested after He worked and blessed His day of rest. There is no command for humanity. There is no explicit instruction that every seventh day thereafter is blessed, nor is there instruction for mankind to respond in any particular way.

In the same vein, is there any record of mankind keeping a Sabbath day from Adam to Moses? There are a few places where the bible teaches God gave the Sabbath as a sign in the Mosaic Covenant:

“Also I gave them [Israel] My Sabbaths...” (Ezekiel 20:12-13)​

“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy. Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you.’” (Exodus 31:13-14)​

“‘It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’” (Exodus 31:17)​

In support of this, Judaism itself has always taught that the Sabbath was given in the Mosaic Covenant, not at creation. For example Judaism teaches of the Seven Laws of Noah which are for Jews and Gentiles. But these do not include a Sabbath. So while there is a first mention of a Sabbath in Genesis, it seems the first instructions to keep it were introduced through Moses.

What do you think about this?

(Please stay on this point only and do not give other arguments promoting a Sabbath. I would like this thread to be about the one question, was there a seventh-day Sabbath for mankind originating with God and given to Adam? Or was it given to Moses and the Israelites? I would also prefer that you make logical arguments rather than preaching or posting multiple Bible verses that are only vaguely applicable).

I look forward to learning more and being challenged.

Peace.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I ever replied to this....
Too many pages to check...so I'll say this:

You're right!

A sign in the Covenants is very important....
A sign is a visible sign which God gives mankind to seal an agreement that God has with him. A sign is given by God...but is SEEN by man.

You are correct that this sign of the Sabbath was given to Moses in the Mosaic Covenant in Exodus 31:12

The problem, as I see it, is that all the other signs of Covenants,
angels with flaming swords --- Adamic
rainbow --- Noahic
Cicumcision--- Abrahamic
ec.....

were NOT part of the 10 commandments....
The sign of the Sabbath was made a part of the 10 commandments.

God said this would b e a sign forever.
Exodus 31:13
“You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.

So I could agree that the Sabbath is no longer valid because we are under the New Covenant....

But this conflicts with the 10 commandments not having been abolished by Jesus.
In fact, ONLY the Moral Law (decalogue) was not abolished.

YouAreAwesome said:

Of Noah I believe he had a clear conscience in the same way Nathaniel had a clear conscience. Noah had a clear conscience and listened to God. I believe a person can also have a clear conscience while under the Mosaic Law. I'm not sure if Nathaniel was a jew or not, that wasn't my point. I was just trying to explain how I see it, that a pure conscience (and the desire for a clear conscience) is the opening of our hearts to God.



I thought @pasifika answered this nicely,

I believe the law of God is Not something that can be written down but principles that developed through direct teaching from Him about Him..hence why He gives us His Spirit so we can grow to know Him and through this knowledge we can distinguish good from evil...God is good and if we know Him we know good then anything other then good is evil...
​

Our spiritual hearts live and breath from God's Spirit teaching us and loving us. Those Ten are no longer for us to stare at. They are the ministry of death. May we remain in the ministry of life! It's not about what not to do, it's about loving! If we walk in love, we do well.

Click to expand...

That all sounds real nice. And goodness knows it is the prevailing religious belief in the land I was born into 61 years ago.

And I do appreciate the discussion that you and pasifika have shared with me.

But to be honest, God's Instructions, including the "10", were never given just to stare at and not take to heart. In fact, according to the Holy scriptures, it is man refusing to take God's Words to heart that caused their death to begin with.

You call God's 10 Commandments the "ministration of death". Another very popular religious interpretation I do not believe the Gospel of Christ is promoting.

Rom. 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Transgression of God's Instructions is really, really, exceedingly wicked and bad and evil. So evil that God placed the ultimate death penalty for rejecting His Words. Not to kill us as Paul said, but that we might understand HOW Wicked and EVIL it is to treat God in such a disrespectful way as to follow a religious path where God's Commandments are no longer important, replaced by doctrines and traditions of religious men. Replaced my men's definition of righteousness and men's definition of Good and men's definition of Doing Well and men's definition of Love.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

But we are flesh and blood, carnal, so we don't believe God's Law is Spiritual. We don't see breaking a Commandment of God as "Exceedingly Sinful" as Paul teaches.

This is why Jesus said to "Deny our self" our carnal understanding, and follow HIS definition of these Spiritual matters. This is why Jesus said man "Lives By" Every Word of God, not just those Word's promoted by this or that religious voice. This is how Abel and Noah and Abraham achieved righteousness. Not by their submitting to their own conscience, but submitting to the Word's of their Creator.

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

My disagreement is with much of the religious doctrines of the land I was born into, that preach God's Commandments are a burden and yoke of Bondage. That God's Commandments are the "Ministration of Death".

The ministration of death is this;

Ex. 12:21Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.

Num. 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

But now we have the Blood of the Christ once and for all. The Ministration of the Spirit.

Though the ministration of death was truly "Glorious", the ministration of the Spirit is much more Glorious.

The reason why I believe God's Instructions still matter, is because it seems important to God that we "live by" HIS definition of Love, HIS definition of Good, HIS definition of "doing well", and not the definition of "other religious voices".

In my view that is why Paul placed so much trust and emphasis on studying and knowing the Holy scriptures, and why Jesus told me to "Live by" every Word of God.

I really do appreciate the conversation. I wanted to express what striving to "walk even as He walked" for 30 years has shown me by reason of use. I know this understanding or "way" was rejected by the Pharisees and religious Jews, except for folks like Zechariahs and Simeon and Nathaniel as well as every example of the faithful given in Heb. 11.. And I also know it is unpopular today. I just want to post the belief so that others, who may also question modern religious doctrines and traditions, can know they are not alone. Some may be offended, but that is not the intent of the post.

With HIS Love,

SM

Studyman said:

Actually Jesus Specifically stated HE didn't come to destroy the "LAW and Prophets".

That would include Genesis through Malachi. I respectfully disagree with your statement here. And yes, Moses told us a Prophet like him would come, and God's People will listen to HIM. This is why I know the Law and Prophets are not "switched off", because the Christ said "after those days" HE would write His Laws on our minds, and then, knowing there would be more and more deceivers, and declared "Think not that I came to destroy the Law and Prophets".

When was the Law and Prophets switched off?

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Exactly, we both agree, The Law (Torah) is Genesis to Deuteronomy, and The Prophets, begin with Joshua and ends with Malachi. My argument is that you and some others, use certain quotes from Christ out of context. He is talking about every word that is written in the Old testament about Him, but you're Highlighting the law.

In all due respect, I don't think you are properly discerning this verse from Jesus. Please allow me to add more scriptures so we can more completely understand the message Jesus is portraying her.

Luke 16: 13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

On this agrees the entire Law and Prophets.

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I would agree that verse 17 is in the same context with 16, but 13-14 is one lesson, 15 is another lesson.
You just made my point by highlighting LAW in red. You're not talking about the book of the law, you're implying the law.

Cribstyl said:

Exactly, we both agree, The Law (Torah) is Genesis to Deuteronomy, and The Prophets, begin with Joshua and ends with Malachi. My argument is that you and some others, use certain quotes from Christ out of context. He is talking about every word that is written in the Old testament about Him, but you're Highlighting the law.

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No, we don't agree. The Law and Prophets were never divided by God or anyone in the Bible. Only by religious men.

Are you preaching that when Jesus said "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.", that HE really meant the Prophets will fail, but not the Law? I don't really believe that is the message HE was giving to us in Luke. I am open to scriptures which you believe support your religious views on this matter though. I'm sure you mean well, but there is too much at stake just to take some random religious man's word for it. Surely you understand.

This is why I post so many scriptures. Not to promote any religious franchise doctrines or teachings, but to go directly to the Holy Scriptures God created which can make us wise unto salvation, which is Faith/Belief in the Holy Christ and HIS Word's which HE Declares are Spirit and Life.

The implication of your religion it seems, is that Jesus only believed and taught the parts of the Holy Scriptures that were written about Him, as if, as the Word of God, HE created everything, except God's Commandments and Statutes.

Are you really preaching that Jesus only believed and taught those Word's of God which you believe were written about HIM?

I would agree that verse 17 is in the same context with 16, but 13-14 is one lesson, 15 is another lesson.

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Well I can see how you might think that. But to me it seems all those verses were teaching the difference between listening and trusting God alone, or mixing some of HIS Words with other religious voices. It seems a man can only serve one master. I think Paul understood exactly what Jesus was teaching here, and I certainly believe them as well..

Rom. 6:15 What then? shall we sin, (Continue to Transgress God's Laws) because we are not under the law, (No longer held by the penalty of transgressions, which is death) but under grace? (Alive because Jesus' Blood cleansed us from the Death we were under) God forbid. (That means no)

Why??? Could it be because it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass, than for the smallest of God's Words to Fail? I believe this to be the case, and apparently so does Paul.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin (Transgression) unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You just made my point by highlighting LAW in red. You're not talking about the book of the law, you're implying the law.

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If you are somehow trying to separate God's Words that He Spoke in Genesis from God's Word HE Spoke in Leviticus, or Isaiah, or Malachi, then I have not made your point. "Think not that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets". How can you have one without the other?

Are they not both part of "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" that Jesus said man shall live by?

Am I to believe that this instruction HE gave to show us how to overcome the temptations of this world, were only valid for a few months?

There is a fundamental disconnect between many religious doctrines taught by the religious voices of this world, and what the Word's of the Bible actually say, in my view.

I think you know this and this is the reason why you are not a JW or a Catholic. Because you have compared some of their religious doctrines to the Holy Scriptures and have found there is a disconnect. This is why I asked you that question.

I believe these are good discussions to have in this evil time to discern them.