Another take on the Rapture

SeventyOne

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How can "all Israel" mean all when another scirpture tells us only 1/3 will make it through the fire?

The 1/3 is all Israel.

For the sake of this example, imagine "all Israel" has 30 people entering judgment. Twenty, or 2/3rds of Israel, perishes during that judgment. Now 1/3 of Israel remains, 10 people. At the point after judgment, who are "all Israel"? These 10 people.
 
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jgr

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The 1/3 is all Israel.

For the sake of this example, imagine "all Israel" has 30 people entering judgment. Twenty, or 2/3rds of Israel, perishes during that judgment. Now 1/3 of Israel remains, 10 people. At the point after judgment, who are "all Israel"? These 10 people.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27, 11:1-5), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.
 
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SeventyOne

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Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27, 11:1-5), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

He's referencing passages that deal with national Israel, not the substitute offered by replacement theology. It was in that reference I was responding.
 
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jgr

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He's referencing passages that deal with national Israel, not the substitute offered by replacement theology. It was in that reference I was responding.

He's referencing saved Israel, and lost Israel.
 
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FredVB

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So we'll see Judas in heaven?

You are so set on seeing Judas Iscariot who betrayed Christ, for a few coins that would be the value of an animal then, again, you might, but it wouldn't be in heaven. It would have been better if he had never ever been born (Matthew 26:24). Going to heaven would be better than not being born, no matter what. That indicates Judas Iscariot does not go to heaven, and was never saved with faith in Christ, and perishes. It really is not indicated that all people of Israel through all time are all saved, that is an interpretation that really stretches the meaning unrealistically.
 
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jgr

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You are so set on seeing Judas Iscariot who betrayed Christ, for a few coins that would be the value of an animal then, again, you might, but it wouldn't be in heaven. It would have been better if he had never ever been born (Matthew 26:24). Going to heaven would be better than not being born, no matter what. That indicates Judas Iscariot does not go to heaven, and was never saved with faith in Christ, and perishes. It really is not indicated that all people of Israel through all time are all saved, that is an interpretation that really stretches the meaning unrealistically.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Judas was a member of "all Israel".
 
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FredVB

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jgr said:
Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Judas was a member of "all Israel".

You really have to ignore anything and all things said about it to have that conclusion that it is all those of Israel of all time. See it shown that Judas could not be included.

Judas Iscariot betrayed Christ, for a few coins that would be the value of an animal then, he wouldn't be in heaven. It would have been better if he had never ever been born (Matthew 26:24). Going to heaven would be better than not being born, no matter what. That indicates Judas Iscariot does not go to heaven, and was never saved with faith in Christ, and perishes.

How could it be better to never have been born than to go still to heaven and enjoy that for eternity with being in the presence of God with that blissful relationship? It could not possibly be better to not be born. So Jesus was wrong, according to you, or otherwise Jesus was right meaning Judas would not be going to heaven but was to perish.

It is your own interpretation that all Israel being saved must mean all descendants of Israel through all time, when nothing in scriptures calls for that interpretation and it really isn't making sense.

It really is not indicated that all people of Israel through all time are all saved, that is an interpretation that really stretches the meaning unrealistically.

Many in Israel were disobedient, and were shown to be perishing in scriptures. Scriptures do show there is only a remnant to be left of Israel, who Yahweh would save. You were shown scriptures about this.

Zechariah 13:7-9
“Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
and against the man who is close to me,” says Yahweh of Armies.
“Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered;
and I will turn my hand against the little ones.
It shall happen that in all the land,” says Yahweh,
“two parts in it will be cut off and die;
but the third will be left in it.
I will bring the third part into the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will test them like gold is tested.
They will call on my name, and I will hear them.
I will say, ‘It is my people;’
and they will say, ‘Yahweh is my God.’ ”

Only a remnant is going to be left and there is nothing to show those perishing are saved. All those left of Israel, all those left in the whole world, from then on, are all Israel that will be saved, they are still saved in Christ who was promised to them, they will be witnesses of Christ to the world from then on.
 
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jgr

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You are wrong, all of israel shall be saved. Isaiah 45:17

Isaiah and Paul disagree. (Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27)

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27, 11:1-5), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.
 
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jgr

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You really have to ignore anything and all things said about it to have that conclusion that it is all those of Israel of all time. See it shown that Judas could not be included.



How could it be better to never have been born than to go still to heaven and enjoy that for eternity with being in the presence of God with that blissful relationship? It could not possibly be better to not be born. So Jesus was wrong, according to you, or otherwise Jesus was right meaning Judas would not be going to heaven but was to perish.

It is your own interpretation that all Israel being saved must mean all descendants of Israel through all time, when nothing in scriptures calls for that interpretation and it really isn't making sense.



Many in Israel were disobedient, and were shown to be perishing in scriptures. Scriptures do show there is only a remnant to be left of Israel, who Yahweh would save. You were shown scriptures about this.

Zechariah 13:7-9
“Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
and against the man who is close to me,” says Yahweh of Armies.
“Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered;
and I will turn my hand against the little ones.
It shall happen that in all the land,” says Yahweh,
“two parts in it will be cut off and die;
but the third will be left in it.
I will bring the third part into the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will test them like gold is tested.
They will call on my name, and I will hear them.
I will say, ‘It is my people;’
and they will say, ‘Yahweh is my God.’ ”

Only a remnant is going to be left and there is nothing to show those perishing are saved. All those left of Israel, all those left in the whole world, from then on, are all Israel that will be saved, they are still saved in Christ who was promised to them, they will be witnesses of Christ to the world from then on.

I concur fully; I was playing the "dispensational devil's advocate".

Judas will not be saved, and only the faithful obedient believing remnant out of the nation of Israel will be saved. (Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27).

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27, 11:1-5), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.
 
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Broken Fence

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Isaiah and Paul disagree. (Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27)

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27, 11:1-5), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.
And who is The Remnant of Israel.
Isaiah and Paul disagree. (Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27)

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27, 11:1-5), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.
 
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keras

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Romans 11:26-27, And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
The quotation Paul uses is from Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob

When the Bible says that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved in Romans 11:26-27, it refers to only a remnant of the Jewish people and all true Christians, now the Israel of God.


The message to the individual is that he or she must “turn from transgression” to the Lord. There will be a remnant that will turn to him. All of them will be saved. He speaks of the saved remnant as the nation Israel.

Are the Jews still God's people? Yes, but only those who are both ethnic and spiritual Jews. Saved Gentiles have also been grafted into the tree and are now co-heirs of the promises of God to Israel. Galatians 3:26-29 The apostle Paul was a remnant Jew...

Romans 11:1, I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Paul was an ethnic Israelite. Paul says that it's all by God's grace... Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Romans 9:27

In other words, by grace through faith, plus or minus nothing, in the Lord Jesus Christ. Only through faith in Jesus can anyone be a child of God. Confirmed by:
Galatians 3:26-29, For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then are you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Clearly, Galatians 3:26-29 states that unsaved Jews cannot be Abraham's spiritual seed, nor are they heirs of the promises of God made to Israel in the Bible. The Bible is very plain on this subject that only born-again Christian believers of any ethnicity are heirs of the promises of God. True, righteous Christians from every race, nation and language are God's people; the Israelites of God.


There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. So we can divide all humanity into one or other of these two groups:
1/ Every godless unbeliever including the non-Christian Jews and

2/ All Christian believers, Jews and Gentiles.; people from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9-10

God never blesses wicked evildoers. When the Jews rejected Jesus, God gave them into the hands of their enemies, as in 70 AD. Then, for continuing in their disbelief; the many pogroms and the Holocaust. Now they face the third swing of the Sword, Ezekiel 21:1-16


Romans 11:1-2 and 19-23, I say then, Has God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away his people which he foreknew…..You may say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and we Christians stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, blessing, so keep your faith: otherwise you also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they change their ways, shall be grafted back in: for God is able to graft them in again.

This Scripture plainly teaches that ONLY Jews who believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ will be grafted back into the tree as God's people. Jeremiah 12:14-16 proves this.


God cut off Judah in 586 BC for their continuous and stiffnecked rebellion against His Word, even killing the prophets. Many prophesies tell of their virtual demise on the Day of the Lords fiery wrath.

God still loves His people, His true people who obey Him, and any Jew can be grafted back into the tree, but all Christ-rejecting Jews are NOT GOD'S PEOPLE. The Parable of the Vineyard shows how the ethnic Jewish people have lost their status. Matthew 21:33-46, Luke 19:27


Less than .025% of the Jews living in Israel today profess to be a Christian. Only a fool thinks that God loves the apostate, atheistic, gay pride, Christ rejecting Jews. These types are NOT God's people.

So only the saved Jews are part of God's people, but most are saved Gentiles. Only believers in Jesus Christ can claim to be heirs of the promises of God originally given to Israel, but now applicable to every faithful Christian.

Galatians 3:29 proclaims this truth...And if you be Christ's, then are you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Romans 8:16-17
 
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Davy

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And who is The Remnant of Israel.

He (jgr) doesn't really know. He's just leading you on.

Those who don't really study their Bible history don't understand that The Gospel was given to the Patriarchs early on. Apostle Paul shows this clearly in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 about Abraham who believed God's Promise and it was counted as righteousness. That is by Faith on The Gospel, even as Jesus showed at the end of John 8 that Abraham saw His day, and rejoiced. So The Promise by Faith was always... FIRST, before the giving of any law. All those of Faith have thus become the children of Abraham, according to Paul in Gal.3.

God gave certain Blessings along with The Gospel Promise by Faith.
When Jacob's time came, all that was transferred from Isaac to Jacob.

The new name 'Israel' which God gave to Jacob was to represent The Gospel by Faith. This is very important to understand, because even the seed of national Israel MUST also believe The Gospel Promise by Faith to truly be part of God's Israel. Just being born of the seed is not enough. This Paul showed in Romans 9 and Romans 11.

Here's a quick summary of the Bible history many are missing in their study:

1. Because of what Solomon did with allowing his many wives to bring pagan idols into Israel, God split the old nation of Israel into two separate kingdoms, or houses.

2. God gave ten tribes for Jeroboam (of the tribe of Ephraim), as king, to reign over in the northern lands, the capital at Samaria, called the "kingdom of Israel" or "house of Israel". At this time the name Israel was mainly applied to these only.

3. The other kingdom was Solomon's son Rehoboam as king of Judah over the tribes of Judah and Benjamin at Jerusalem/Judea in the southern lands, called the "kingdom of Judah", or "house of Judah". These became known as Jews, that title coming from the tribe of Judah, and only applying to those of the southern "kingdom of Judah".

4. Because true worship at the time involved going to Jerusalem, king Jeroboam setup two golden calf idols in the northern for the ten northern tribes to worship, to keep them from going south and possibly augmenting the southern kingdom of Judah. Jeroboam also setup common priests of the people, which prevented the Levites in the north from doing their duties, so the Levites migrated south and joined with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. A small remnant of the ten tribes also refused the calf idols and migrated south to join with Judah, but the majority of the ten tribes stayed in the north under Jeroboam. The tribe of Ephraim became the head tribe over the northern kingdom.

5. Both kingdoms had war against each other.

6. Eventually God got fed up with the calf idols among the northern kingdom of Israel, and brought the kings of Assyria upon the ten tribes and removed them all to the lands of Assyria and the Medes. The kings of Assyria then moved pagan peoples from five cities in Babylon to the northern lands where the ten tribes were. These were the Gentile Samaritans of Jesus' day. Only the "house of Judah" was left in the land. To this day, the ten northern tribes of the house of Israel have never returned, and have become lost to the world, and to the Jews of the house of Judah.

7. After about 130 years that the ten northern tribes had been removed, the "house of Judah" kingdom also rebelled against God, and He brought the king of Babylon Nebuchadnezzar upon them, and removed them captive to Babylon for 70 years. This was Daniel's and Jeremiah's time.

8. After the 70 years, a small remnant of the Jews returned to Jerusalem to build the city, wall, and 2nd temple, starting up old covenant worship again. Ezra 2 gives us the list of those tribes that returned. None of the ten tribes are mentioned. And one of the problems among the house of Judah remnant were the crept in Canaanites among them, and foreigners that had become temple servants and priests (see Ezra 8 & 9).

9. The majority of the house of Judah remained in Babylon of their own choice. God had promised to take care of them there, and He did, even increased their numbers. These were eventually further scattered through the countries like the ten tribes were, God keeping His promises of Deuteronomy 4 & 28 of what He'd do if His people rebelled.

10. God through His prophet Hosea showed about the ending of the ten northern tribe kingdom of Israel, and that He would scatter them and hedge up their paths so they couldn't find their way back. At the same time, He said they would become an innumerable number of people. And eventually where it was said to them, 'Lo ammi' (not My people), it would be said to them that they are the children of the living God (Hosea 1). Apostle Paul quoted that to Roman Gentile believers in Romans 9.

11. Because Paul showed The Gospel Promise was always first through Abraham, and that the name 'Israel' is about The Gospel, even for the Gentiles (i.e., "commonwealth of Israel" per Eph.2), Bible prophecy reveals that the ten tribes would receive The Gospel of Jesus Christ among the Gentiles, and both together would believe and become Christ's Church.

12. Jesus did say that He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, which is really per Bible history about the ten northern tribes that were scattered and lost. We can see the reality of this once The Gospel was preached and rejected at Jerusalem, and then was preached to peoples in the West, and the formation of the western Christian nations took place. This fulfilled the Genesis 35 and Genesis 48 prophecy that Jacob's seed would become "a company of nations" and that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations". And remember, Ephraim was the head reigning tribe over the ten tribes.

So there it is, Christ's Church is made up of believers from ALL 12 tribes of Israel, and believing Gentiles, together, as one body. And it was Old Testament prophecy.
 
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jgr

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Those who don't really study their Bible history don't understand that The Gospel was given to the Patriarchs early on. Apostle Paul shows this clearly in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 about Abraham who believed God's Promise and it was counted as righteousness. That is by Faith on The Gospel, even as Jesus showed at the end of John 8 that Abraham saw His day, and rejoiced. So The Promise by Faith was always... FIRST, before the giving of any law. All those of Faith have thus become the children of Abraham, according to Paul in Gal.3.

God gave certain Blessings along with The Gospel Promise by Faith.
When Jacob's time came, all that was transferred from Isaac to Jacob.

The new name 'Israel' which God gave to Jacob was to represent The Gospel by Faith. This is very important to understand, because even the seed of national Israel MUST also believe The Gospel Promise by Faith to truly be part of God's Israel. Just being born of the seed is not enough. This Paul showed in Romans 9 and Romans 11.

Amen brother.

Couldn't have expressed it better myself.

You've compellingly captured the essence, meaning, and identity of the remnant.
 
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Broken Fence

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John 14
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus was wrong. Imagine that.

Some of us do.
Jesus was not wrong, He was raised from the dead. He sits at God's right hand making intercession. Arise in your heart. The Son of God shall awaken you from the grave.
 
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Broken Fence

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Hell is for sinners! They will remain alive and enter the Millennial kingdom in natural bodies - as people who can rebuild the human race again. The church will be there too, but with resurrection bodies - and as judges.
A holy priesthood, a royal generation.
 
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Amen brother.

Couldn't have expressed it better myself.

You've compellingly captured the essence, meaning, and identity of the remnant.
Correction;
Davy captured the essence, meaning and identity of every faithful Christian believer. The people 1 Peter 2:9-10, describes.
 
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