Salvation can never be lost

Andrew98 said:

By what Good Hope says the man is still saved as it is by faith alone and anything else is works. But it’s hard to accept as the man later denies Jesus.

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Is that what you did? You know St. Peter Apostle of Christ did that three times yet he repented and still is in Christ.

Andrew98 said:

I don’t mean denying to someone else like Peter did but denying Jesus in his own heart.

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Same thing.

Hello @Andrew98, the Lord has also promised that He will sanctify us (grow us up in Christlikeness) and "preserve" those of us who are truly His in the faith .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 7:25, such that we will persevere in the faith from justification to Glory .. albeit highly imperfectly in some cases. Perseverance is therefore one of principle ways that we know that we are "in Christ" .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 13:5.

Further, if a man (in his right mind), who claimed and perhaps believed himself to be a Christian at one time, eventually leaves the Christian faith/rejects the Lord, and he dies in unrepentant sin, then the Lord tells us plainly, through the pen of the Apostle John, that he was ~never~ a Christian from the get-go .. e.g. 1 John 2:19.

Finally, St. James speaks of two 'kinds' of faith, one saving/lively (which is the kind of faith that results in good works, holy living and perseverance), and another kind of faith that is dead, that ~results~ in nothing. The demons "believe" in the latter sense (and they even "shudder" because they do) .. James 2:19, because they know exactly who Jesus is .. Mark 5:1-9 (see v7, in particular), but they are not, nor will they ever be, saved.

These are some of the reasons why we Calvinists hold to the doctrine of, "The Perseverance of the Saints" (see below), not to "OSAS", because ~many~ have claimed and even believed themselves Christians, when they are not/never were .. Matthew 7:22-23.

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - here is an excerpt from the Westminster Standards, Westminster Confession of Faith. This is what Calvinists believe (in part) concerning the Eternal Security of the believer, that all true saints/all who are 'truly' saved by God, 'will' persevere in the Christian faith because of Him.

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Andrew98 said:

Some person may feel intimated and deny Jesus but in their heart still believe in Jesus. I mean the person who decided they don’t believe in Jesus anymore.

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Unto they die they can repent and cry unto Christ for Salvation. You want a pat answer something that is permanent that says either this or that but the truth is any man anytime may repent and turn back to Christ no matter how bad they might think they are.

Christ didn't come into the world with an attitude that one must do this and if man denies Christ to bad, man did that not Christ. Christ came to offer Salvation to all if they accept it and He is always willing to take anyone back whom strays, Christ stands with opens arm ready to embrace any who come to Him with no strings attached.

charsan said:

As St. Paul says the man has to run the race and finish the fight. If this hypothetical man did this and was truly saved before he lost that free gift and unrepentant and hatred in his heart would damn himself to hell

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Some look at salvation as a get out of jail free card.

Grace does not give one license to sin. Why are we to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? We are asked to pick up our cross and follow Him.

Andrew98 said:

A) What if later in his life this same man commits adultery 20 times, rapes 100 people and murders 20 people and then kills himself.

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No one reborn in the Holy Spirit will do such thing. Once you are sealed by the Spirit you are forever saved. Just because you sin does not mean you become unsaved, that's not possible, because Jesus was already punished in your place, your sin was punished by God, He won't punish you again but discipline you instead. Does that mean you are free to sin? God forbid. Because if you want to do and still do whatever you want that's a sing you have not been reborn. Every Christian who is born in the Spirit wants to please God because that is his nature. That of course doesn't mean he won't sin but he won't be capable of such wickedness. Why? Because all of the evil, and wickedness, the rapes, wars etc. come from our wicked hearts that are like a stone, and when you are born in Spirit you get a new heart that is not capable of such things.

Andrew98 said:

what if the man did not do the above but 50 years later he denies Jesus as his saviour and converts to another religion

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Man Born in Spirit can never convert to a different religion, if he does that's a sign he wasn't born in the Spirit in first place. One of the first jobs of the Holy Spirit is to testify about Jesus and to work in you so you resemble Christ. If you starting testifying against Jesus you don't have the Spirit. It's not possible to have the Spirit and deny Jesus. Maybe doubt in some hard situations, but the Spirit will remind you, that's His job. Is it impossible for a Christian to not to be a Christian. Yes many call themselves Christian, but you are not a true Christian unless you are born in Spirit and God gives you a new heart.

Hi @Andrew98

Person A would not go to heaven. They have shown with their behaviour that they have not known Him or His ways.

Person B would not go to heaven. If they deny the Son and the Father before the face of others, they will be denied on Judgement Day.

Salvation is a gift and its precious. You cannot play about with it, ignore it or desecrate it without repercussion. Thise who won't are those who fear God. And fearing God is the start of wisdom.

I hope that helps in some way.

Love & Shalom

Basil the Great said:

As to your question, only God knows for certain, but Jesus' warning in Matthew would seem to indicate that many will call him 'Lord' and yet still not be saved!

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Everyone born in the Spirit is saved, it is impossible to unsafe yourself once you are sealed by the Spirit. Why? Because the seal of the Spirit is a sign that Jesus was punished by death for your sin and God doesn't punish twice. It is done, your sin has been punished, you have become righteous in Jesus name. The whole world, every demon, satan himself can accuse you of something but you always have two defenders in Holy Spirit and Jesus, one testifies of Jesus, and Jesus Himself testifies to Father that He took your judgement that He took your punishment and that the debt for the sin was paid for. You have been therefore been made righteous by God, and hence no one is above God, you are forever saved.

Now, yes there will be many that call Him 'Lord Lord' and not be saved - but these are the Christians that call them self Christians but they are not, because they haven't been reborn in Spirit and God hasn't given them new hearts, so they go to hell. Christian is only someone who is reborn in Spirit. And who decides that? God. You can be born to a Christian family, pray everyday, visit church and I don't know what but you are not truly a Christian unless you are born in Spirit.

Andrew98 said:

Obedience is not required.

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If you are not obeying God, you are not a Christian. The problem is that no one wants to obey God because of our wicked hearts. So He has to have a grace on us and save us by giving us new hearts and give us a Holy Spirit to dwell in us. The Spirit will do the works in you so you obey God more and more because for you on your own are not capable of obeying God.

Andrew98 said:

Is scripture not clear? How can one know if one is saved?

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Because the Spirit testifies in him that he is saved. That's why Christians who are born in Spirit for example don't doubt that they are saved and where they are going even when they are dying, and only have hours left. I for example in difficult circumstances even when I'm hurt I still know where my destination is because the Spirit testifies in me that Jesus took my punishment for sin and I am made righteous in His name and I am saved. I can have fights in my mind, I can have doubts or even don't like what God allowed in my life (but I trust Him nonetheless) but I always know that I am saved. And not because I ever done a single thing to be saved, that all of the works of the Spirit that does the work in God's name. Even that I know this is because the Spirit has revealed this to me.

Andrew98 said:

A) What if later in his life this same man commits adultery 20 times, rapes 100 people and murders 20 people and then kills himself.

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Then he was never saved to begin with. Read James 2:19

Andrew98 said:

B) what if the man did not do the above but 50 years later he denies Jesus as his saviour and converts to another religion

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Then he was the seed planted in the rocky soil. See parable of the sower.

Michie said:

Grace does not give one license to sin.

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Hello Michie, you are correct, in fact, when we are born again, God gives us a new heart and a new spirit, AND the indwelling of Holy Spirit .. Ezekiel 36:26-27, such that we receive from Him a new self/new nature .. cf Ephesians 4:22-24, with a new 'desire' to not sin (as well the power not to sin, which is given to us by the indwelling of the HS).

For His glory He makes us, "His workmanship", as "new creatures" in Christ, created in Christ Jesus for/unto good works (as well holy living, perseverance.....) .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:8-10.

This is also why I believe theologian/pastor A. W. Pink was correct when he said this concerning evangelism:

So @Andrew98, one of the marks of being a 'true' believer is seen in our desire to not sin, as well to be grieved by it/feel shame because of it whenever we do sin. Another mark of a true Christian is seen in repentance from and confession of our sins, as we seek both His forgiveness and His restoration to full fellowship with Him .. e.g. 1 John 1:9.

On the other hand, those who reject the Savior and continue (or quickly return to) living a sinful, unrepentant lifestyle bear the mark of the truly unregenerate (and if such a person claims to have been a Christian sometime ago, their "claim" should be regarded as nothing more than that ) .. cf Hebrews 10:26-27.

Blessings to you (both) in Christ

--David

Andrew98 said:

I don’t get the relevance of the first verse. Acts 17:31 says “And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” This verse does not mention believing on Jesus but believing in one God. Demons, Muslims, Jews etc. all believe in one God but they do not believe on the Lord Jesus. So this verse doesn’t say believing on Jesus alone is not enough.

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Forgive me. I am trying to keep it as simple as possible. James 2:19 suggest that it isn't enough to merely believe in the existence of Jesus. Because "even demons believe in Jesus and tremble." It is one thing to believe that Jesus is your savior. But have you submitted to His Lordship by dying to self? In both examples you have provided, the answer is no.

Andrew98 said:

Hypothetical:

Suppose a man hears the gospel, believes in it 100% and that day asks Jesus to be his saviour.

A) What if later in his life this same man commits adultery 20 times, rapes 100 people and murders 20 people and then kills himself.

B) what if the man did not do the above but 50 years later he denies Jesus as his saviour and converts to another religion

God cannot lie and in John 3:16, Jesus says that the man will not perish but will have everlasting life.

Does that mean the man in both circumstances will die and go to heaven?

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No ... one can't take one verse from His Word and apply it to every circumstance and person "across the board".

One needs to study His Word and understand it as a whole. One can take one verse and/or statement and make it mean just about whatever they want it to.

You are correct ... God can not lie .... but His truth can certainly be skewed, misunderstood, taken out of context and/or misused.

One accepts Jesus as their savior ... then they pursue having a continuous relationship with Him ... that happens largely by learning all about Him and all of His teachings through study of His entire Word, adhering to His teachings and maintaining that relationship with Him.