Should Christian Women cover their hair?

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Billy UK said:

Love rejoices in the truth according to corinthians and not deception through scripture twisting. I love God and prefer to stand up for the truth. That means ill expose your lies

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This is a tiny matter of hair covering.....I refuse to continue this any more as I will not be disrespected by someone who is obviously not living the Truth they claim. Don't force your beliefs on someone, we're all human and we all deserve respect. I disagree with you, but I still love and respect you as a human and Christian. God bless you.

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Elisha McFarland said:

This is a tiny matter of hair covering.....I refuse to continue this any more as I will not be disrespected by someone who is obviously not living the Truth they claim. Don't force your beliefs on someone, we're all human and we all deserve respect. I disagree with you, but I still love and respect you as a human and Christian. God bless you.

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Billy UK said:

We will agree to disagree.

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fellas, this isn't the place for non-Orthodox to debate each other.

ArmyMatt said:

fellas, this isn't the place for non-Orthodox to debate each other.

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Agreed. Can we send this GT thread back to that abyss prepared for we-know-who?
If there’s one thing I hate, it’s CF’s inability or unwillingness to make it crystal clear to people that they are posting in a congregational forum.

rusmeister said:

If there’s one thing I hate, it’s CF’s inability or unwillingness to make it crystal clear to people that they are posting in a congregational forum.

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I don't think it's CF, I just wish folks would read where they are posting before they post. it'd solve a lot.

ArmyMatt said:

fellas, this isn't the place for non-Orthodox to debate each other.

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Agreed. This is not an Orthodox discussion.

I prefer my woman to cover. I also don't shave my beard. What others do isn't my business.

Paisios of Athos said:

I prefer my woman to cover. I also don't shave my beard. What others do isn't my business.

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I think we CAN have an Orthodox discussion on the topic, and don’t think the issue is necessarily only “that which is my business”, and certainly within the Church, we do not buy libertarianism as a principle, as we know that what we do affects others. Our sin affects others. Our behavior affects others. A woman rejects calls to modesty and goes in her tight jeans, and prostrates before a man who struggles with lust. Or whatever. What we do affects others.

OK, so does hair length have any effect on anything? I think it does. One clear effect, by human tradition, is that, like clothing, it has generally been used as a distinction between the sexes. (Show me an exception, and I’ll show you the exception that proves the rule.) Is that a good thing? In a world gone mad on denying the differences between the two sexes God made, yes, it is.

So the man who would be godly should wonder whether it is best for him to grow long hair, and the woman - to cut her hair short. There may be exceptional reasons to do so, and exceptions with good reason should be accepted. But the general rule I think that Orthodox Christians should follow should be to adopt whatever longstanding tradition has determined to be identifying markers of the male or female sex, and to avoid those that are generally recognized to denote the other, to say to the public, so to speak, that we embrace who God made us to be, a thing not of our choice, but which we accept in humility and gladness. To that end, in our time of imaginary “sexual orientations” and “genders”, we ought to go with what we know that human tradition to be. Scotsmen may wear kilts, but our society never has, and we can even see commentary on that from the Apostle Paul.

And the same logic applies to covering. We know, by well-established tradition, that the Church has held that we should acknowledge our sex in church. On what basis, then, do we claim that we should be an exception? I find the question to be thoroughly rooted in modern feminism, and not at all in Church Tradition - the mind of the world ever seeking to co-opt the mind of the Church. The very fact that men do not similarly clamor for a “right” to keep their hats on in church points to that feminist, non-Christian origin. And it was never about our rights, anyway, but about what is right to do, which is very often opposed to our tastes and feelings.

To stay on topic, and one that's been an Orthodox seeker - I'd say both Scripture and history say yes to this one. I know in traditional Catholicism, women would wear a veil - and they can be quite beautiful.

To go with this should be modesty. I see girls from 14 to 80 years old with skirts that are way too short, and tops cut way too low. The whole idea of modesty has been lost.

This is a problem that is much smaller in Traditional Catholicism than the post Vatican 2, folk song jams that are Sunday norms in most places.

But 90% of our clergy don't have the guts, or are too weakly formed to even see this as an issue. And so begins the erosion..................

I can't return to protestantism because debates like this are had over things like "Do we really need to be baptized???"

The practice seems to depend on where you are in the world. I've never been to Europe or the Middle East, so I can't comment on those places, but here in North America it does depend where you are.

I've seen strongly ethnic Slavic parishes that would freak out if a woman didn't have a head covering of some kind be it a veil or hat. I've seen both convert parishes and strongly ethnic parishes that have a mix of heads covered and heads not covered. Most monasteries and/or parishes will have some sort of guideline on their website, but the good ones will be diplomatic about it. I've been to one Jerusalem Vicariate parish that decided that the most important time to have one's head covered was during Communion. They even had a basket of loaner veils for Communion at the end of the line and you simply returned it after receiving.

I think the most important things are that if it's being done that it's being done sincerely and without judgment. The American in me still doesn't like the idea of imposing one practice over another because it can create a false sense of piety; "We cover our hair at this parish therefore we're holier than that parish over there". I also don't like the judgement that women can get from other people about it. "Oh look, she's the only one in the whole parish who wears a veil she must think she's so humble" or the opposite extreme "What is that tramp doing here without a head covering?" People can get pushed away from the Church in both situations. I've seen a strongly ethnic parish lose their grandkids over it; little George becomes a college student one day, brings his non-Orthodox girlfriend to church and she gets chastised for not knowing that they cover their hair in that parish (and aren't nice about it either). Years from now the old ladies are complaining to their priest about George and his family not baptizing their kids.


Would any of the ladies of TAW like to weigh in?

Right at the beginning I asked my priest, knowing how strict some Parishes/Communities are about it.

His comment was that he felt it was more important that we were present at Liturgies than we fussed about having a head covering. If I go elsewhere I do have a scarf with me but I prefer not to wear one as it interferes with my hearing aids [ bilateral ] and the constant rustling noise is far too distracting

E.C. said:

The practice seems to depend on where you are in the world. I've never been to Europe or the Middle East, so I can't comment on those places, but here in North America it does depend where you are.

I've seen strongly ethnic Slavic parishes that would freak out if a woman didn't have a head covering of some kind be it a veil or hat. I've seen both convert parishes and strongly ethnic parishes that have a mix of heads covered and heads not covered. Most monasteries and/or parishes will have some sort of guideline on their website, but the good ones will be diplomatic about it. I've been to one Jerusalem Vicariate parish that decided that the most important time to have one's head covered was during Communion. They even had a basket of loaner veils for Communion at the end of the line and you simply returned it after receiving.

I think the most important things are that if it's being done that it's being done sincerely and without judgment. The American in me still doesn't like the idea of imposing one practice over another because it can create a false sense of piety; "We cover our hair at this parish therefore we're holier than that parish over there". I also don't like the judgement that women can get from other people about it. "Oh look, she's the only one in the whole parish who wears a veil she must think she's so humble" or the opposite extreme "What is that tramp doing here without a head covering?" People can get pushed away from the Church in both situations. I've seen a strongly ethnic parish lose their grandkids over it; little George becomes a college student one day, brings his non-Orthodox girlfriend to church and she gets chastised for not knowing that they cover their hair in that parish (and aren't nice about it either). Years from now the old ladies are complaining to their priest about George and his family not baptizing their kids.


Would any of the ladies of TAW like to weigh in?

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Well, I'm not a lady, and I would reject the idea that it is an issue for only women to decide - again, I feel it necessary to repeat that men might as well start wearing their hats in church. They don't demand that, because, in my opinion, (speaking generally and allowing for exceptions) men don't have as much of a problem with obedience as women do - men have a harder time with self-sacrificial love, and this is an issue of obedience. I think that both men and women ought to both obey and self-sacrificially love, but the Apostle Paul nailed the thing that each sex needs to struggle with more in telling husbands to love their wives and wives to obey their husbands. We all need reminders of the thing that is harder for us.

I think the heart of the problem in what you are describing about people judging others is an extreme that, of course, goes wrong, but it is no cure to run to the opposite extreme and in fearing one sin, commit an opposite sin. I think the attitude of teaching those that humbly want to know what is best, and don't start out by thinking they know better, and not worrying about people who don't understand these things yet is best. "You'll understand when you're older" is a more patient attitude towards people who haven't yet come to understand why it's really better that women not wear clothing that makes their anatomy apparent, especially in the positions we sometimes assume in church. Metropolitan Anthony was right that we should not drive people away who aren't "there" yet, but we should ourselves desire to know the best practice that does not spiritually puff us up while helping us toward modesty and humility.

But saying or implying that "it doesn't matter" (not that you are) is just wrong. Perhaps in an Islamic society that stresses the difference of the sexes these practices are much less important and less necessary, but in secular Western society, bent on denying those differences, we need those practices more than ever.

I don't mean to sound rude, but it's just something I noticed. Why are nonOrthodox people commenting in a solely Orthodox forum? Have the rules changed?

Rigatoni said:

I respectfully disagree. Christians will not be judged for sin, because Jesus became sin for us. All of our sins were nailed to the cross and taken away forever (Psalms 103:12). Unbelievers will be judged for sin, we will be judged by what we did the knowledge of the Gospel.

In other words, Christians will be judged by their works and faith, and their personal relationship with God; it'll be a judgment of reward. The Christian journey is described as being like a race, and at the end every one receives their reward at the "bema seat" judgment (1 Corinthians 9:24-25). The bema seat is what a judge would sit on hand out rewards from based on how well every athlete performed, in the ancient Greek Olympics.

We are no longer bound to the law. Although, bad decisions in this life do have consequences. We are in training for righteousness here on earth, and sometimes God allows us to experience negative consequences as a form of divine discipline. Also, I do believe that the evidence of a true Christian is that they naturally grow in obedience in keeping God's commands, but that doesn't mean we should all stumble into strict legalism. God works in us to obey Him automatically (Philippians 2:13).

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Jesus never "became sin". He took on the world's sins. He is sinless. And yes. ALL people, including Christians will be judged by our sins. The more you know, the more accountable to God you are. I'm wondering why you are talking about such things in an Orthodox forum.

In my tradition, we don't usually wear headscarves. Although yiayias do. I did try wearing one a couple of times, the last time causing my head to sweat so badly, I became faint and disoriented while trying to venerate Saints' relics. It was both a scary and distracting feeling where I didn't know who's relics I was kissing. So, if I ever try again, I may try lace scarf with lots of breathable holes in it.

E.C. said:

The practice seems to depend on where you are in the world. I've never been to Europe or the Middle East, so I can't comment on those places, but here in North America it does depend where you are.

I think the most important things are that if it's being done that it's being done sincerely and without judgment. The American in me still doesn't like the idea of imposing one practice over another because it can create a false sense of piety; "We cover our hair at this parish therefore we're holier than that parish over there". I also don't like the judgement that women can get from other people about it. "Oh look, she's the only one in the whole parish who wears a veil she must think she's so humble" or the opposite extreme "What is that tramp doing here without a head covering?" People can get pushed away from the Church in both situations. I've seen a strongly ethnic parish lose their grandkids over it; little George becomes a college student one day, brings his non-Orthodox girlfriend to church and she gets chastised for not knowing that they cover their hair in that parish (and aren't nice about it either). Years from now the old ladies are complaining to their priest about George and his family not baptizing their kids.


Would any of the ladies of TAW like to weigh in?

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I agree. It depends on the traditions of the people who attend the churches. Also agree that we shouldn't judge women who choose to wear a headcovering or those who don't.

Dorothea said:

I don't mean to sound rude, but it's just something I noticed. Why are nonOrthodox people commenting in a solely Orthodox forum? Have the rules changed?

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the rules have not changed, folks just don't read them.