RAPTURED TO WHERE?

keras said:

The dead know nothing, they lie in their graves. Job 14:10, Isaiah 38:18,
All the humans who have ever lived will come out of their graves and stand before God on the last Day of mankind. Revelation 20:11-15, John 11:24

Heaven, the throne and God Himself are inseparable.
God has at times, allowed humans to see these things. Ezekiel 1 gave a vivid description and John saw the same scene in Revelation 4
It is prophesied that all the faithful Christian people, in the holy Land, will see it too. Revelation 7:9-12

Are you going to address Matthew 28:20? Or is that verse too damaging for your precious beliefs?

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So you believe in soul sleep. Well, I do not.

keras said:

During this Church age, Zion - [metaphorically; our faith in Jesus] is both a spiritual way of life and a physical place.

The Temple Mount, Mount Zion; 2 Samuel 5:7, is still a location in Jerusalem. Your statement above is rather wacky.

Entry to the Kingdom and immortality, is a promise and is not a reality yet. John 3:16

The present ACTUAL reality, is that we live on earth and are almost at the point in time when the Lord will take action to correct the situation that is once again; as in the days of Noah.
Expect dramatic events and we must stand firm in our faith through all that must happen before Jesus Returns.

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The Old is gone forever! It is time for you to step into the new covenant arrangement.

sovereigngrace said:

The Old is gone forever! It is time for you to step into the new covenant arrangement.

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Why then; has the New Covenant not yet been fully implemented? Hebrews 8:7-12 I shall set My Laws in their hearts….all will know the Lord.

jgr said:

Why not read the whole post?

Or does the blindness of acute premillenialitis preclude it?

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God allowed Ezekiel and John to see His heavenly glory. The Christian overcomers from every race, nation and language, standing in Jerusalem soon after the Sixth Seal devastation of the holy Land; will see it too. Rev 7:9

The point of this issue is, that Jesus Promised to be with us always, until the end of time. He is now; in the Spirit and will be here again physically. When He Returns, those faithful people who remain will be gathered to Him. Matthew 24:30-31 THERE IS NO GOING TO HEAVEN.

Your personal accusations against me, degrade yourself. They show your inability to make proper, well reasoned rebuttal.

keras said:

Why then; has the New Covenant not yet been fully implemented? Hebrews 8:7-12 I shall set My Laws in their hearts….all will know the Lord.

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It has! Many of us are enjoying it through the new birth. I recommend you take a hold of it.

keras said:

Your personal accusations against me, degrade yourself. They show your inability to make proper, well reasoned rebuttal.

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That is rich coming from you!!!

keras said:

Why then; has the New Covenant not yet been fully implemented? Hebrews 8:7-12 I shall set My Laws in their hearts….all will know the Lord.

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Hebrews 8:7-12 is quoting from Jeremiah 31:31-34, so of course Jeremiah uses future tense verbs, as it was written prior to Christ.

Is your argument that it is not fully established because of the future tense verbs in this passage?

keras said:

But heaven is a spiritual place, in another dimension and is everywhere to us.
Do you have the childish idea the heaven is floating somewhere in outer space?

Jesus is in heaven now and yet He said: I will be with you until the end of time. Matthew 28:20

This truth shows the utter foolishness of the 'rapture' believers and the inability of you and many others to comprehend where the Christian people will be during the end times.

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But it does. Please kindly reread the verses that she bolded. I'm sorry but Paul (and Christ) claiming that he will take us to be where he is plus Paul saying "whether we are awake OR ASLEEP we will be where Christ is. Sounds kinda straightforward to me.

People who think the new Covenant between the Lord and His faithful believers, is now fully implemented, are wrong. They simply haven't understood the full implications of it, or realized who will participate in it.
The New Covenant will be made when the Christian peoples inherit the holy Land. Ezekiel 39:25-29 describes this time.
Ezekiel 39:25 and both Jeremiah 31: 31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-12 refer to Israel as the partner. Do not be misled, make no mistake: WE Christians are the Israel of God. We are the overcomers for God, as seen in each of the seven Church's in Revelations 2 & 3

Neostarwcc said:

But it does. Please kindly reread the verses that she bolded. I'm sorry but Paul (and Christ) claiming that he will take us to be where he is plus Paul saying "whether we are awake OR ASLEEP we will be where Christ is. Sounds kinda straightforward to me.

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NONE of the verse presented actually say that God will take His people to live in heaven.
Our names are written there, our rewards are kept there, but we never go to live there, Jesus said so:
John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.

John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11

keras said:

People who think the new Covenant between the Lord and His faithful believers, is now fully implemented, are wrong. They simply haven't understood the full implications of it, or realized who will participate in it.

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I think I understand the argument you are trying to make.

The old covenant was implemented at Sinai, some 40 years prior to the Israelites entering the promised land, and then fully established upon Israel entering the promise land.

Therefore, The New covenant was implemented at the Cross, through the blood of Christ, and will be fully established when believers enter the promise land.

Is this correct understanding of your position?

keras said:

Ezekiel 39:25-29 describes this time.

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This passage describes Israel's return from Babylonian captivity.

Ezekiel 39:25 Therefore thus says the Lord God: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for my holy name.

Per Jeremiah, the fortunes would be restored after 70 years were completed in Babylon:

Jeremiah 29:10-14 For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

Psalm 85 is generally agreed to have been written upon Israel's return from Babylonian Captivity:

Psalm 85:1 Lord, you were favorable to your land;you restored the fortunes of Jacob.

claninja said:

I think I understand the argument you are trying to make.

The old covenant was implemented at Sinai, some 40 years prior to the Israelites entering the promised land, and then fully established upon Israel entering the promise land.

Therefore, The New covenant was implemented at the Cross, through the blood of Christ, and will be fully established when believers enter the promise land.

Is this correct understanding of your position?

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Exactly, perfectly. I am grateful for this good explanation of my beliefs and what scriptures tell us of Gods plans for His people.

claninja said:

This passage describes Israel's return from Babylonian captivity.

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It is impossible for Ezekiel 39:25-29 to have been fulfilled then, as what is prophesied did not happen then.
It awaits the final fulfilment when all of Gods faithful people occupy all of the holy Land.
This will happen soon after the Lords Day of fiery wrath has cleared and cleansed all of that area.
Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +, THEN the gathering and passing under the Rod of Judgment, Ezekiel 20:33-38, and only the righteous will enter. Isaiah 35, Psalms 37:29

keras said:

It is impossible for Ezekiel 39:25-29 to have been fulfilled then, as what is prophesied did not happen then.

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According to you, but not according to scripture.

keras said:

It awaits the final fulfilment when all of Gods faithful people occupy all of the holy Land.

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Jeremiah states it would be fulfilled after 70 years in Babylonian captivity.

Jeremiah 29:10-14 For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

The psalmist agree that it was fulfilled upon return from Babylonian exile.

Psalm 85:1 Lord, you were favorable to your land; you restored the fortunes of Jacob.

When was the Spirit poured out on Israel?

Ezekiel 39:29 And I will no longer hide My face from them, for I will pour out My Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Lord GOD.”

In the 1st century, as confirmed by Peter and in agreement with the prophet Joel. This happened AFTER Israel had returned from Babylonian exile.

Acts 2:15-17 These men are not drunk as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day!c No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people.

keras said:

This will happen soon after the Lords Day of fiery wrath has cleared and cleansed all of that area.
Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +,

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Deuteronomy 32:34-35Have I not stored up these things, sealed up within My vaults? Vengeance is Mine; I will repay.i In due time their foot will slip; for their day of disaster is near, and their doom is coming quickly

Per Jesus, the 1st century destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled all that written in regards to the days of vengeance.

Luke 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

claninja said:

According to you, but not according to scripture.

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According to a plain reading of Ezekiel 38:21-29, in the context of the attack by Gog/Magog onto an undefended notion of Israelite people. Not the case in the present day or anytime in the past.

Verse 25: ALL of Israel. This means all 12 tribes and now includes everyone grafted in thru Jesus.
Verse 26; forget their shame....live undisturbed and free from terror... Not the case as yet.
Verse 27; ...display Gods holiness for all to see. Absolutely not by the current citizens of Israel.
Verse 28: They will all know I am their God....gathered and left none behind. Obviously this doesn't apply to the Jews.
Verse 29; Then I will show My face to them and pour out My Spirit upon them. Not happened yet.

Your contention, Claninja that this prophecy is fulfilled, is so plainly wrong that you lose any credibility that you may have had.

claninja said:

Deuteronomy 32:34-35Have I not stored up these things, sealed up within My vaults? Vengeance is Mine; I will repay.i In due time their foot will slip; for their day of disaster is near, and their doom is coming quickly

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The doom of Gods enemies will happen quickly, AFTER their 'foot slips'. That is: they make a mistake.
That mistake will be to commence an attack with nuke missiles onto the holy Land. Zechariah 5:1-11...huge flying metal tubes that require lead covers.

claninja said:

Per Jesus, the 1st century destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled all that written in regards to the days of vengeance.

Luke 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

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Yes; what was Written about the Roman conquest did happen. Luke 21:20-24
But Luke 21:25-28 awaits fulfillment during the end times of this Church Age.

That you and many Christians are not aware of, or prepared physically and spiritually for these testing times, is most unfortunate.

keras said:

According to a plain reading of Ezekiel 38:21-23,

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Jesus had to open the minds of the apostles to understand the Old Testament scripture.

Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures

That's because God spoke to the prophets of Israel in visions/dreams/parables, and not clear language as He spoke to Moses with.

Numbers 12:6-8 And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. 7Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. 8With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Hosea 12:10 spoke to the prophets; it was I who multiplied visions, and through the prophets gave parables.

So without the use of the NT to support your speculations, that's all they are: speculations.

keras said:

Verse 25: ALL of Israel. This means all 12 tribes and now includes everyone grafted in thru Jesus.
Verse 26; forget their shame....live undisturbed and free from terror... Not the case as yet.
Verse 27; ...display Gods holiness for all to see. Absolutely not by the current citizens of Israel.
Verse 28: They will all know I am their God....gathered and left none behind. Obviously this doesn't apply to the Jews.
Verse 29; Then I will show My face to them and pour out My Spirit upon them. Not happened yet.

Your contention, Claninja that this prophecy is fulfilled, is so plainly wrong that you lose any credibility that you may have had.

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Keras, you didn't address anything I posted, so let's try this again:

When was to God restore Jacobs fortune?
Ezekiel 39:25 “Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for my holy name.

According to scripture, it was to occur following 70 years in Babylon Exile.

Jeremiah 29:10-14 For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

This is confirmed by the Psalmist who returned from Babylonian exile.

Psalm 85:1 Lord, you were favorable to your land;you restored the fortunes of Jacob.


Now, when did God pour out His Spirit on Israel?

Ezekiel 39:29 And I will not hide my face anymore from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, declares the Lord GOD.”

At Pentecost in the first century

Acts 2:1-4 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and resteda on each one of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

You are going to have to address Jeremiah and the psalmist that explicitly and clearly state the fortunes of Jacob are restored following Babylonian captivity.

Additionally you are going to have to show scripture which states the Holy Spirit is poured out more than once, considering the NT declares it poured out at Pentacost in the 1st century.

keras said:

The doom of Gods enemies will happen quickly, AFTER their 'foot slips'. That is: they make a mistake.
That mistake will be to commence an attack with nuke missiles onto the holy Land. Zechariah 5:1-11...huge flying metal tubes that require lead covers.

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Pure speculation.

keras said:

Yes; what was Written about the Roman conquest did happen. Luke 21:20-24
But Luke 21:25-28 awaits fulfillment during the end times of this Church Age.

That you and many Christians are not aware of, or prepared physically and spiritually for these testing times, is most unfortunate.

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Even though Luke testifies that the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem would fulfill the days of vengeance in regards to "all that was written", you believe in more days of vengeance?

claninja said:

Even though Luke testifies that the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem would fulfill the days of vengeance in regards to "all that was written", you believe in more days of vengeance?

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The Prophetic Word tells us about the great and terrible Day of the Lords fiery vengeance and wrath. Joel 2:30-31, Revelation 6:12-17, 2 Peter 3:7 and over 100 other prophesies. All yet to happen.
What Luke 21:22 says, refers to Luke 21:20-21 and the other prophesies about the Roman conquest of Judah.
Why do you not think the Lord will correct the situation today? Has He forgotten His Creation?

I do not speculate about Gods plans for the world and especially for His faithful people. He will do what He has told us thru His prophets. And it seems very likely that we who are alive today, will see it all.

keras said:

The Prophetic Word tells us about the great and terrible Day of the Lords fiery vengeance and wrath. Joel 2:30-31, Revelation 6:12-17, 2 Peter 3:7 and over 100 other prophesies. All yet to happen.
What Luke 21:22 says, refers to Luke 21:20-21 and the other prophesies about the Roman conquest of Judah.

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Hmmmm... Jesus states the destruction of Jerusalem fulfills "all that was written" in regards to the days of vengeance. But Keras states there are more days of vengeance to be fulfilled in the future. Who should I believe, Jesus or Keras?

Luke 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

keras said:

Why do you not think the Lord will correct the situation today? Has He forgotten His Creation?

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God corrected the situation when he sent Christ. He reconciled the world to Himself in Christ.

2 corinthians 5:18-19 All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

keras said:

I do not speculate about Gods plans for the world and especially for His faithful people.

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Yes you do. If you didn't, your past failed predictions of the 2nd coming would have been true.

WailingWall said:

Cant seem to find anywhere in scripture that we are goin to heaven after we are changed in the twinkling of an eye. Anyone?

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`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

So there we see that the Lord Jesus is on the Father`s throne but there will come a time when He brings His Body, the overcomers to His own throne.

Now the word `throne` implies power and authority. And we know that when the Lord puts down all power and authority in every realm then all will come under His rule, just as the Father purposes.

There will be a throne, (power & authority) ON the earth, another throne IN the New Jerusalem, and final a throne in the highest realm. Does that mean the Lord actually sits on a `chair` in all those realms. Obviously no. It mean HIs power and authority is in each of those realms, and He will rule visible with His Body in the highest realm, (after He comes from the Father to bring His Body to the highest - His own throne, the seat of all power and authority in God`s great kingdom.)

claninja said:

But Keras states there are more days of vengeance to be fulfilled in the future. Who should I believe, Jesus or Keras?

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Jesus Himself makes it clear that there will be a Day of vengeance; a literal day, when He will destroy the godless as He did in Noah's time. He didn't read Isaiah 61:2b-11, all that awaits the end times. Revelation 6:12-17, Matthew 3:12, Luke 12:49

claninja said:

And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

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We Christians seem to be failing in that task; the world has become more atheist and godless over the last 100 years. What is God to do?
He will do what He did before; reset our civilization; this time with fire. 2 Peter 3:1-7 says it clearly.