Can the day or hour be known?

DavidPT · May 4, 2020

jgr said:
Deal accepted. I found the antecedent of the prince. He is Messiah the Prince.

I was under the impression that antecedents mainly have to do with pronouns. prince in verse 26 is not a pronoun, is it? Yet, you are saying you found the antecedent of the prince. He is Messiah the Prince. Yet, according to verse 26 though, the prince that shall come is not even the first person meantioned in that verse to begin with, Messiah is the first person mentioned in that verse. That makes Messiah in that verse being the nearest to Messiah the Prince in verse 25.

That doesn't mean the prince that shall come can not be meaning the Messiah, but it can mean that the prince that shall come doesn't have to mean the Messiah either. In order to determine whether or not the prince that shall come can be meaning the Messiah or not, that will have to be determined from verse 27 in this particular chapter. Plus, from other Scriptures as well, where some of those Scriptures might even be in the NT.

When we get to the pronouns in verse 27, the only one they can be referring to is the prince that shall come, and for sure not the Messiah in verse 26, unless the Messiah and the prince that shall come are one and the same. Clearly they are not. Verse 27 is tied to abominations caused by the person in question in verse 27. Speaking of blasphemy, since this has been brought up in this thread, how can it not be a blasphemous interpretion if verse 27 is to be understood like such?

And Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week Christ shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations Christ shall make it desolate , even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The issue with blasphemy is not so much what I don't have underlined, but what I do have underlined, because what I do have underlined has to still be applied to what I don't have underlined.

What is being made desolate in this verse? How can it not be the sacrifice and the oblation? And why are they being made desolate? How can it not be because of the spreading of abominations by the one meant in this verse?

Clearly, to some of us anyway, Christ can't be meant in verse 27, period.

jgr · May 4, 2020

DavidPT said:
I was under the impression that antecedents mainly have to do with pronouns. prince in verse 26 is not a pronoun, is it? Yet, you are saying you found the antecedent of the prince. He is Messiah the Prince. Yet, according to verse 26 though, the prince that shall come is not even the first person meantioned in that verse to begin with, Messiah is the first person mentioned in that verse. That makes Messiah in that verse being the nearest to Messiah the Prince in verse 25.

That doesn't mean the prince that shall come can not be meaning the Messiah, but it can mean that the prince that shall come doesn't have to mean the Messiah either. In order to determine whether or not the prince that shall come can be meaning the Messiah or not, that will have to be determined from verse 27 in this particular chapter. Plus, from other Scriptures as well, where some of those Scriptures might even be in the NT.

From Dr. Andrew Carnie's acclaimed Syntax: A Generative Introduction :
"Antecedent: An NP that gives its meaning to another NP."
An NP is a Noun Phrase, encompassing nouns, pronouns, and their phrasal equivalents.
Thus a Noun Phrase can be the antecedent of a following Noun.
Thus the Noun Phrase "Messiah the Prince" in Daniel 9:25 is the antecedent of the following Noun "prince" in Daniel 9:26.

DavidPT said:
When we get to the pronouns in verse 27, the only one they can be referring to is the prince that shall come, and for sure not the Messiah in verse 26, unless the Messiah and the prince that shall come are one and the same. Clearly they are not.

They are one and the same.

DavidPT said:
What is being made desolate in this verse? How can it not be the sacrifice and the oblation? And why are they being made desolate? How can it not be because of the spreading of abominations by the one meant in this verse?

The word "it" in Daniel 9:27 KJV is not present in the Hebrew.

Refer to the YLT for the most accurate English translation.

The NKJV is also clearer.

Dorothy Mae · May 5, 2020

Davy said:
OK, right, I don't adhere to Darby's Dispensationalism, nor a pre-trib rapture. The reason is because John Nelson Darby added the false idea that the Church is raptured before the trib to Heaven, and reigns with Jesus in Heaven during the Millennium while the nation of Israel is re-established on earth. That idea of course is not written in God's Word.

The concept of the church being raptured isn’t there at all. There is, however, the resurrection where the dead in Christ shall rise first.

What is written, is that Jesus returns only one time, and it's back to this earth where He ascended to The Father from, written in Acts 1 and Zechariah 14.

Why did Jesus tell the church in Ephesus that if they didn’t repent he was coming to them? That’s already twice at least.

In the process of His coming He gathers His Church, the asleep saints He brings with Him, and then He gathers up His saints that are still alive on earth at that point.

That’s the resurrection.

Then He and they all... go to Jerusalem to live and reign over the nations, on earth.

We aren't going into Heaven where The Father is. We are staying on the earth, BUT... the Heavenly dimension is going to be revealed to all, upon the earth.

Do you know that this is what the Pharisees believed but with the Jews reigning from Jerusalem? A violent and hostile take over ruling with tyranny over weaker beings.

There is a much better eschatology whereby we rule now as we walk in obedience doing His will and praying in power bringing the Kingdom of God to men who willingly embrace it winning nation after nation to Christ’s ways of justice and peace.

Dorothy Mae · May 5, 2020

Davy said:
One tries... to help another, but some just want to argue, even against the Scriptures...

Some just want to win and have no desire for truth.

Jesus goes into the temple and reads from Isaiah 61:1-2:

Luke 4:16-21
16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up: and, as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17 And there was delivered unto Him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written,

18 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.'

20 And He closed the book, and He gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on Him.

21 And He began to say unto them, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."
KJV

Shall I again quote to you what Peter said on the day of Pentecost? He finished the prediction of “fire and smoke,” the day of vengeance soon to come on the city that killed the prophets. You have no reason to claim that God will take vengeance on the world today. If Sodom had had 10 righteous people God would have spared it.

The lazy can guess what the rest of the Isaiah 61:2 verse is that He closed the Book before He got to it and didn't read.

It wasn’t for THAT day. That verse was for 70 AD. That’s why Jesus didn’t read it. Peter moved by the Holy Spirit added to his speech to a crowd many of whom would be still living when it would fall and needed to know.

Davy · May 7, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
The concept of the church being raptured isn’t there at all. There is, however, the resurrection where the dead in Christ shall rise first.

The word 'rapture' actually just comes from a Latin translation of Greek harpazo (KJV "caught up" in 1 Thess.4). The saints still alive on earth on that day of Jesus' 2nd coming will be gathered in their spiritual body. The change at the twinkling of an eye that Apostle Paul showed happens on the "last trump" per 1 Corinthians 15 is part of the event of Christ's coming. The other group of saints, the "asleep" saints, are first resurrected to their spiritual bodies and Jesus brings those with Him. The Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 Scriptures describes the gathering of both groups, one Scripture about those from heaven, and the other Scripture about those gathered from the earth. Same thing Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4.

Why did Jesus tell the church in Ephesus that if they didn’t repent he was coming to them? That’s already twice at least. That’s the resurrection.
Do you know that this is what the Pharisees believed but with the Jews reigning from Jerusalem? A violent and hostile take over ruling with tyranny over weaker beings.

Jesus didn't say that to the Church at Ephesus. He warned them about the need to repent, or He would remove their 'candlestick' (which is of the seven candlestick pattern in Heaven that John saw in Rev.1). That's not the resurrection; I don't know where you're getting that idea.

Davy · May 7, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Some just want to win and have no desire for truth.

Some clearly work against... the Truth of God's Word, and instead try to push their own doctrines from men. God will recompense in time.

Shall I again quote to you what Peter said on the day of Pentecost? He finished the prediction of “fire and smoke,” the day of vengeance soon to come on the city that killed the prophets. You have no reason to claim that God will take vengeance on the world today. If Sodom had had 10 righteous people God would have spared it.

You've clearly been duped by men's false doctrines. Pentecost did NOT bring the "day of vengeance" per Isaiah 61:2, which is about Christ's FUTURE LITERAL gathering of His Church at His LITERAL RETURN to this earth to REIGN over all nations.

As a matter of fact, Apostle Peter when quoting from the Book of Joel was saying the cloven tongue at Pentecost was 'an example' of the Joel 2 prophecy! I'll bet you haven't even read what that Joel 2 prophecy says, but have just rather be duped by false men crept in unawares...

Joel 2:28-32
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
KJV

Dorothy Mae · May 7, 2020

Davy said:
The word 'rapture' actually just comes from a Latin translation of Greek harpazo (KJV "caught up" in 1 Thess.4). The saints still alive on earth on that day of Jesus' 2nd coming will be gathered in their spiritual body. The change at the twinkling of an eye that Apostle Paul showed happens on the "last trump" per 1 Corinthians 15 is part of the event of Christ's coming. The other group of saints, the "asleep" saints, are first resurrected to their spiritual bodies and Jesus brings those with Him. The Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 Scriptures describes the gathering of both groups, one Scripture about those from heaven, and the other Scripture about those gathered from the earth. Same thing Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4.

When the dead in Christ rise it is for sure and certain the Resurrection.

Jesus didn't say that to the Church at Ephesus. He warned them about the need to repent, or He would remove their 'candlestick' (which is of the seven candlestick pattern in Heaven that John saw in Rev.1). That's not the resurrection; I don't know where you're getting that idea.

I read the Bible, not men’s theologies.

“If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.”

He said HE WOULD COME. I know you don’t like it but there it is. A direct quote from Jesus himself.

DavidPT · May 7, 2020

jgr said:
The word "it" in Daniel 9:27 KJV is not present in the Hebrew.

Refer to the YLT for the most accurate English translation.

The NKJV is also clearer.

The following is a translation that makes things clearer than you claim the YLT does. And it appears to be more accurate on top of that, at least in this case anyway.

Daniel 9:26 The Message (MSG)

25-26 “‘Here is what you must understand: From the time the word goes out to rebuild Jerusalem until the coming of the Anointed Leader, there will be seven sevens. The rebuilding will take sixty-two sevens, including building streets and digging a moat. Those will be rough times. After the sixty-two sevens, the Anointed Leader will be killed—the end of him. The city and Sanctuary will be laid in ruins by the army of the newly arriving leader. The end will come in a rush, like a flood. War will rage right up to the end, desolation the order of the day.

Daniel 9:27 The Message (MSG)

27 “‘Then for one seven, he will forge many and strong alliances, but halfway through the seven he will banish worship and prayers. At the place of worship, a desecrating obscenity will be set up and remain until finally the desecrator himself is decisively destroyed.’”

Compared with----

Daniel 9:26 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations.

Daniel 9:27 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

In the YLT in verse 26 it doesn't even correctly have that it's the people of the leader who does the destroying.

claninja · May 7, 2020

DavidPT said:
25-26 “‘Here is what you must understand: From the time the word goes out to rebuild Jerusalem until the coming of the Anointed Leader, there will be seven sevens. The rebuilding will take sixty-two sevens, including building streets and digging a moat. Those will be rough times. After the sixty-two sevens, the Anointed Leader will be killed—the end of him. The city and Sanctuary will be laid in ruins by the army of the newly arriving leader. The end will come in a rush, like a flood. War will rage right up to the end, desolation the order of the day.

DavidPT said:
In the YLT in verse 26 it doesn't even correctly have that it's the people of the leader who does the destroying.

Young's has the people destroyed by the leader
26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations.

The ESV has the people doing the destruction of the city and sanctuary
26And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Itsf end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

The KJV has the people of the prince doing to the destruction of the city and sanctuary
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

the Septuagint doesn't mention people. It simply states "he" will destroy the city with the price that is coming.
26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint [the city] to desolations

Here is a direct word for word translation of the Hebrew text, which is difficult to read, and therefore has multiple ways to translate it.
Daniel 9:26 And after the weeks sixty and two shall be cut of messiah but not for himself and the city and the sanctuary shall destroy the people of the prince who is to come and the end of it with a flood and till the end of the war are determined desolation.

So it depends on who or what the verb "shall destroy" is attached to. It also depends on what the new testament tells us. Who or what destroys the city and sanctuary according to Jesus?

Matthew 22:7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

Luke 21:5 And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, “As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.

Luke 19:43-44 For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

jgr · May 7, 2020

DavidPT said:
The following is a translation that makes things clearer than you claim the YLT does. And it appears to be more accurate on top of that, at least in this case anyway.

Daniel 9:26 The Message (MSG)

25-26 “‘Here is what you must understand: From the time the word goes out to rebuild Jerusalem until the coming of the Anointed Leader, there will be seven sevens. The rebuilding will take sixty-two sevens, including building streets and digging a moat. Those will be rough times. After the sixty-two sevens, the Anointed Leader will be killed—the end of him. The city and Sanctuary will be laid in ruins by the army of the newly arriving leader. The end will come in a rush, like a flood. War will rage right up to the end, desolation the order of the day.

Daniel 9:27 The Message (MSG)

27 “‘Then for one seven, he will forge many and strong alliances, but halfway through the seven he will banish worship and prayers. At the place of worship, a desecrating obscenity will be set up and remain until finally the desecrator himself is decisively destroyed.’”

Compared with----

Daniel 9:26 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations.

Daniel 9:27 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

In the YLT in verse 26 it doesn't even correctly have that it's the people of the leader who does the destroying.

From Wikipedia re The Message:

"The Message was translated by Peterson from the original languages.[2] It is a highly idiomatic translation, using contemporary slang from the US rather than a more neutral International English, and it falls on the extreme dynamic end of the dynamic and formal equivalence spectrum. Some scholars, like Michael J. Gorman, consider some of Peterson's idiomatic renderings unconventional."

The word "literal" does not occur a single time in Wikipedia's description of The Message.

From Wikipedia re Young's Literal Translation:

"The Literal Translation is unusual in that, as the name implies, it is a very literal translation of the original Hebrew and Greek texts."

There is no comparison between the two regarding translation accuracy.

keras · May 7, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Shall I again quote to you what Peter said on the day of Pentecost? He finished the prediction of “fire and smoke,” the day of vengeance soon to come on the city that killed the prophets. You have no reason to claim that God will take vengeance on the world today. If Sodom had had 10 righteous people God would have spared it.

2 Peter 3:1-7 said that people living in the last days, would deny God's Judgment upon the world by fire. They would forget that He did it before, with water and the result will be similar to what happened in Noah's time.

Dorothy Mae · May 7, 2020

keras said:
2 Peter 3:1-7 said that people living in the last days, would deny God's Judgment upon the world by fire. They would forget that He did it before, with water and the result will be similar to what happened in Noah's time.

is now, beloved, the second epistle that I write unto you; and in both of them I stir up your sincere mind by putting you in remembrance; 2 that ye should remember the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and the commandments of the Lord and Saviour through your apostles: 3 knowing this first, that in the last days mockers shall come with mockery, walking after their own lusts, 4 and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willfully forget, that there were heavens from of old, and an earth compacted out of water and amidst water, by the word of God; 6 by which means the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Where in the verse you site that I actually quote does it say that He did it before with water and will be similar to what happened in Noah's day? What Peter is talking about is the destruction with fire of Jerusalem that was God's judgement for them killing the Son of God, which some of those here did and others openly said a curse would be on their own children, which happened.

parousia70 · May 8, 2020

Davy said:
Jesus didn't say that to the Church at Ephesus. ... I don't know where you're getting that idea.

We get the idea from Jesus' own words, for he DID indeed say that to those at Ephesus, and I have no idea where you are getting the idea He didn't?
Did someone take a sharpie to Revelation 2:5 in your Bible and redact Jesus words?

Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

He warned them about the need to repent, or He would "come to them quickly" to remove their 'candlestick'.
You cannot Biblically separate the event of His coming to them from the event of His removing their Candlestick.
For sure, if they DID NOT repent, Christ's coming to them served to remove their lampstand. So, if they did not repent, and if Christ did not then follow up by coming and removing their lampstand, then Christ is a proven false prophet, for he plainly threatened to come quickly and remove their lampstand. There is no way around it.

Compare also to Thyatira where Jesus promised to come and kill off their false prophetess and her followers (Rev 2:20-25). Jesus gave her time to repent and she did not. Therefore Jesus promised to come kill her and her followers, and the godly ones in Thyatira were told to hang on for that coming (Rev 2:25)! I remind everyone reading here that Jesus could not lie to them or break his promises, else He is not Messiah. There is no way around this--Jesus Christ plainly applied his coming to all the first-century Churches mentioned in Revelation.
It is a simple fact.

--THE RELIEF PROVIDED BY CHRIST'S 1ST CENTURY PAROUSIA--

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thessalonica
promise: 2 Thess 1:6-7
result: their persecutors would be cut off, ending their persecution

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Rev 2:18-25
result: their false prophetess and all her followers would be killed off by
Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Rev 2:12-16
result: the heretical Nicolaitans were to put down by Christ's coming to
Pergamum. The Nicolaitans that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were killed (Rev 2:14; cf. Acts 15:28-29).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Sardis
promise: Rev 3:1-5
result: Christ promises them that his "thief-in-the-night" coming will come
upon them. They had not been faithfully expecting "the thief" as explained to them in Matt 24:43/1 Thess5:2-5. However, a few in Sardis were found worthy and had not soiled their garments. At Christ's coming to them "they walked in white, for they were worthy" (Rev 3:4-5).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Rev 3:7-13
result: Christ puts down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution (3:9).
He preserves the Church at Philadelphia through the testing which was then about to come upon the whole empire (3:10). God makes his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ is shown to be knocking at their door as first promised in Matt 24:33 (cf. also James 5:9). If they didn't repent it appears they were annihilated. Repentant and obedient followers said to become partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

I could add many other things, but this will do for now. It is clear that the scriptures contain the historic record of the tribulation period, and they explain the relief that Christ's Coming brought to the churches around the empire, precisely as they were promised. Christ did not fail them.

keras · May 8, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Where in the verse you site that I actually quote does it say that He did it before with water and will be similar to what happened in Noah's day? What Peter is talking about is the destruction with fire of Jerusalem that was God's judgement for them killing the Son of God, which some of those here did and others openly said a curse would be on their own children, which happened.

I cited 2 Peter 3:1-7.
It plainly states that God sent a Flood of water to destroy the ungodly in the days of Noah.
But what happened in 70 AD, was not the fulfilment of the multi prophesied Day the Lord will send fire.

Matthew 24:37-44 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be when the Son of Man comes. Then they ate, drank and married right up to the day Noah went into the ark. They knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away. That is how it will be when the Son of Man comes. Be ready, therefore, lest He comes when you are unprepared.

‘suddenly destruction is upon them’- This is the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times in the Bible and accurately described as a CME sun explosion. Isaiah 30:26, 1 Thess 5:3

keras · May 8, 2020

parousia70 said:
It is clear that the scriptures contain the historic record of the tribulation period, and they explain the relief that Christ's Coming brought to the churches around the empire, precisely as they were promised. Christ did not fail them.

How is it then; that the historical record from the many sources other that the Bible, does not confirm the fulfilment of the Prophesies?
The idea that the prophesies were fulfilled and Jesus Returned in the first century, simply is unsupportable from the known facts. Such as all of the 7 actual Churchs of Rev 2 and 3, being persecuted to extinction.

Dorothy Mae · May 9, 2020

keras said:
I cited 2 Peter 3:1-7.
It plainly states that God sent a Flood of water to destroy the ungodly in the days of Noah.
But what happened in 70 AD, was not the fulfilment of the multi prophesied Day the Lord will send fire.

Yes it was. The destruction of Jerusalem fulfills the prophesies.

Matthew 24:37-44 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be when the Son of Man comes. Then they ate, drank and married right up to the day Noah went into the ark. They knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away. That is how it will be when the Son of Man comes. Be ready, therefore, lest He comes when you are unprepared.

This addresses solely how the inhabitants had no warning signs. It does not speak to what happened. Might as well say that day a few will be saved from the destructive fire by a submarine boat this time.

‘suddenly destruction is upon them’- This is the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times in the Bible and accurately described as a CME sun explosion. Isaiah 30:26, 1 Thess 5:3

Yup. Happened in 70 AD

Dorothy Mae · May 9, 2020

keras said:
How is it then; that the historical record from the many sources other that the Bible, does not confirm the fulfilment of the Prophesies?

Ignorance of the facts of history because the events certainly do.

The idea that the prophesies were fulfilled and Jesus Returned in the first century, simply is unsupportable from the known facts.

Not if you understand the Bible and history. The resurrection and bodily return of Jesus is in the future. But he threatened to come (in judgement) more than once and then did so.

keras · May 9, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Ignorance of the facts of history because the events certainly do.
Not if you understand the Bible and history. The resurrection and bodily return of Jesus is in the future. But he threatened to come (in judgement) more than once and then did so.

Jesus didn't come in 70 AD. Titus and his Roman legions did.

When in the past did the moon shine as bright as the sun and blood red? Isaiah 30:26, Joel 2:31, Rev 6:12 When did the sky roll up like a scroll? Isaiah 34:4
There is heaps of prophesies that await fulfilment, they are not allegorical or spiritual, they can and will actually happen.

shilohsfoal · May 9, 2020

grafted branch said:
Matthew 24:36 makes the statement that no man knows the day or hour. Some views of the end times create a situation where people will be able to calculate out the day of the Lord/second coming described in Matthew 24:30.

When the final week or seven in Daniel 9:27 is placed in the future, people on earth at this time will be able to calculate the date of Christ’s coming by adding 7 years to the date that the covenant was signed. If Matthew 24:22 is used to make the assertion that the days are shortened and therefore no one will be able to determine with any accuracy the date, then the full 70 weeks that are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city in Daniel 9:24 will not be fulfilled.

After the 2 witnesses are killed 3.5 days later they stand on their feet, followed by the seventh trumpet. This may also create the issue of people being able to know the day or hour if it’s viewed as happening in the future.

I’m not promoting any particular end time view but I do believe that no one will be able to know the day or hour prior to Christ’s coming. I have been using Matthew 24:36 as a litmus test for deciding which end time views I should study further. However I want to re-examine my view on this and would like to get input on whether the day and hour can be known.

There is an event which Jesus spoke of in Mathew 24 that you can know the date of. If your interested I can show you in scripture how you can know that date.

Original Happy Camper · May 9, 2020

grafted branch said:
So I would like to discuss the 2 witnesses. I don’t want to focus on who they are, only the timing of their prophesying. From Revelation 11:3 they prophesy for 1,260 days. 3.5 days after they are killed they stand on their feet and a voice from heaven says “Come up hither”.

Do you think this event is describing the “coming” that occurred in 70 AD?

11:3-4 “The two witnesses,” which are said to be “two olive trees” and “two candlesticks,” represent the Old and New Testaments. The olive trees represent the power of the Holy Spirit. The candlesticks symbolize the spiritual light of the scriptures. Psalm 119:105; Zechariah 4:1-14. The two witnesses were to “prophesy…in sackcloth,” symbolizing mourning. The Bible was not readily available to the common people. There are several reasons for this:

1. It was only available in Hebrew, Greek and Latin;
2. It had to be copied by hand so there were few copies;
3. During religious services both scripture reading and sermons were in Latin;
4. The church’s stance was that since the common people could not understand the Bible, the clergy must interpret it for them;
5. Even after the Bible was translated into the common language of the people, the church forbade them to read it.

read more here
Revelation 11 Commentary

Can the day or hour be known?

Can the day or hour be known prior to Christ's second coming?

Yes

No

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Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Jacks or better to open

One of GODS Children I am a historicist

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