Jesus Body and Blood

ViaCrucis · May 8, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
The true believers however are presently invisible until the Wheat and Tares are separated...

In that sense the mystical body is invisible...

And yet the Church is still very visible. Even if wicked men preach the Gospel, it's still the Gospel. Even if a wicked person administers the Sacraments, they are still the Sacraments. Donatism is heretical.

If a wolf itself proclaims the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it's still the Gospel--believe the Gospel.

"Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the Gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice." - Philippians 1:15-18

-CryptoLutheran

Saint Steven · May 8, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Personally I don't believe any church gave us the bible as we know it today - It was His love for the world that made sure we finally got the right handbook.

I used to share a similar view. But over the last year I have come to somewhat of a reversal of that.

I am wondering if God ever intended for us to have a book like the Bible. Which I know is a crazy thought because of how meaningful it has been to me for all my adult life. And has been such a blessing in so many ways.

But I have noticed a disturbing trend, which should have been more obvious to me earlier. An elevation of the book to god status. The study of a book that is used as a weapon to defeat others, under the guise of protecting truth. Which frankly needs no protecting.

I have been challenging some of the Bible-thumpers I know with this idea. What would happen to you if you put your library out on the curb on trash day? What if you had to depend on the voice of God to direct you from here on out?

So, did God intend for us to have a book like that? Did God direct the effort? Or is the Bible a manifestation of the need for humankind to codify their beliefs. An authoritative text. A replacement for a personal relationship. Do the benefits outweigh the risk? I'm still struggling with this.

Radagast · May 8, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
Even if a wicked person administers the Sacraments, they are still the Sacraments.

But if the Sacraments are not administered correctly, then they are not the Sacraments.

Those people who are baptised "in the name of the Creator and of the Liberator and of the Sustainer" have not had a Christian baptism.

Paul4JC · May 8, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Gathering in His name He is there in the midst...

Don't forget the bible is not exhaustive, He said so himself.

Are you suggesting He doesn't meet us in unexplainable ways at communion time?

Yes "where two or three are gathered in my name there am I with them.” I've met him in unexplainable ways in so many places in my life. God is good.

I'm not here to offend people, but as I mentioned in my previous post, at least for me, it's not the elements, it's what the Lord Jesus did at Calvary, that's my focus "you proclaim the Lord’s death."

Mt 18:20
1 Cor 11:26

God bless.

Saint Steven · May 8, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
When I say "Church" I am referring to that institution and community established by Jesus Christ upon the pillar of the apostles and their preaching...

Personally, I think we give the Apostles (capital A) a lot more credit than they deserve. (no disrespect intended)

After all, they were human just as we are. Sometime they appear to be bungling through. I think what we read about them in the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostle confirms this. Jesus was frustrated with them as well.

ViaCrucis · May 8, 2020

Radagast said:
But if the Sacraments are not administered correctly, then they are not the Sacraments.

Those people who are baptised "in the name of the Creator and of the Liberator and of the Sustainer" have not had a Christian baptism.

True. I was thinking with the assumption of the Word preached and Sacraments administered faithfully. As the Apostle says in Galatians, "Even if we or an angel from heaven preaches a gospel other than the one you have heard from us, he is accursed."

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · May 8, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Personally, I think we give the Apostles (capital A) a lot more credit than they deserve. (no disrespect intended)

After all, they were human just as we are. Sometime they appear to be bungling through. I think what we read about them in the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostle confirms this. Jesus was frustrated with them as well.

They were just human. Christ didn't found a Church of the righteous, the well, or the well-adjusted; He founded a Church of losers, miscreants, and sinners--you and me. And yet, they were still His holy apostles.

-CryptoLutheran

Carl Emerson · May 8, 2020

One last comment is that Peter was told to put his sword away when Jesus healed the high priests ear...

How come, some venerate a church that sanctioned the hideous murder is folks who dared challenge the positions it held? Has there ever been an official apology and an admission of guilt? Is this the Christ like way to uphold the faith?

Radagast · May 8, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Has there ever been an official apology and an admission of guilt?

If you are referring to the Inquisition, Pope John Paul II made an apology back in 2000.

See Vatican Looks Back At Inquisition

ViaCrucis · May 8, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
One last comment is that Peter was told to put his sword away when Jesus healed the high priests ear...

How come, some venerate a church that sanctioned the hideous murder is folks who dared challenge the positions it held? Has there ever been an official apology and an admission of guilt? Is this the Christ like way to uphold the faith?

That Church, the Church that has people who did heinous things? That's the Christian Church, Christ's Church.

Again, Christ did not found a Church of righteous, well, and well-adjusted people. He founded a Church of losers, miscreants, and sinners--you and me.

"Jesus answered, 'It is not the healthy who need a physician, but the sick, I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." - Luke 5:31-32

Christians have, and still do, really bad things. Lord have mercy on us.

-CryptoLutheran

Saint Steven · May 8, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
When I say "Church" I am referring to that institution and community established by Jesus Christ upon the pillar of the apostles and their preaching, which consists of all who belong to Christ by the grace of God. This visible institution, where the word of God is found, confessed, taught, preached, and believed, is Christ's own mystical Body, with Himself as the Head and Chief Cornerstone.

It is neither an edifice of stone, nor is it a set of feelings; it is the living, breathing organism through which God is active, in Christ, by the Spirit who is at work here. Both visible and invisible, visible by the institution of Christ, who called His apostles, gathered them together, and sent them out to preach, baptize, to make disciples; and therein the word of God is proclaimed, believed, confessed, for our very salvation. Invisible, for Christ alone knows the wheat from the tares, the sheep from the goats.

This Church which Christ founded is rightly confessed to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. That it is one because Christ founded but one Church with Himself as its Head and Chief Cornerstone; holy for He sanctifies her with the Holy Spirit, catholic for it cannot be constrained by either time or place, and apostolic for Christ set His Church upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets of old. Here is the Temple of God, the Household of God, that sanctuary into which we can find refuge for Christ is here, through Word and Sacrament, to hold us, keep us, sustain us. For He says He is the True Vine, and we are the branches, and that we have life if we abide in Him.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks for that detailed statement. Epic.

On the other hand Christ is the good shepherd. And sheep are REALLY dumb.
From my perspective, the church is a real train wreck. We will not make it without his help. We will stumble across the finish line in rags. Some will have to be dragged across. We are so far off course, he will have to send the angels out to round us up.

Other than that, I agree completely. - lol

Awareness of our poverty and ineptitude causes us to rejoice in the gift of being called out of darkness into wondrous light and translated into the kingdom of God's beloved Son. --- Brennan Manning ---

Carl Emerson · May 8, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
And yet the Church is still very visible. Even if wicked men preach the Gospel, it's still the Gospel. Even if a wicked person administers the Sacraments, they are still the Sacraments. Donatism is heretical.

If a wolf itself proclaims the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it's still the Gospel--believe the Gospel.

"Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the Gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice." - Philippians 1:15-18

-CryptoLutheran

Yes I am aware of this, but if it takes angels under His direction to seperate the true in the church from the false, that means the true believers are not recognised the human eye...

Carl Emerson · May 8, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
That Church, the Church that has people who did heinous things? That's the Christian Church, Christ's Church.

Again, Christ did not found a Church of righteous, well, and well-adjusted people. He founded a Church of losers, miscreants, and sinners--you and me.

"Jesus answered, 'It is not the healthy who need a physician, but the sick, I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." - Luke 5:31-32

Christians have, and still do, really bad things. Lord have mercy on us.

-CryptoLutheran

Given this admission, how can we be supremely confident that these same sinners correctly interpreted the scriptures?

Carl Emerson · May 8, 2020

Radagast said:
If you are referring to the Inquisition, Pope John Paul II made an apology back in 2000.

See Vatican Looks Back At Inquisition

Thanks for this - does this not question the infallibility of the Popes during this sorry period?

Radagast · May 8, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Thanks for this - does this not question the infallibility of the Popes during this sorry period?

I don't think there were any actual papal pronouncements from the period that needed re-evaluation (not that I accept papal infallibility, of course).

The only aspect I know much about is the Galileo story. Galileo was indeed condemned by the Inquisition; but the Pope himself never actually said that Galileo was wrong.

Carl Emerson · May 8, 2020

Saint Steven said:
I used to share a similar view. But over the last year I have come to somewhat of a reversal of that.

I am wondering if God ever intended for us to have a book like the Bible. Which I know is a crazy thought because of how meaningful it has been to me for all my adult life. And has been such a blessing in so many ways.

But I have noticed a disturbing trend, which should have been more obvious to me earlier. An elevation of the book to god status. The study of a book that is used as a weapon to defeat others, under the guise of protecting truth. Which frankly needs no protecting.

I have been challenging some of the Bible-thumpers I know with this idea. What would happen to you if you put your library out on the curb on trash day? What if you had to depend on the voice of God to direct you from here on out?

So, did God intend for us to have a book like that? Did God direct the effort? Or is the Bible a manifestation of the need for humankind to codify their beliefs. An authoritative text. A replacement for a personal relationship. Do the benefits outweigh the risk? I'm still struggling with this.

I understand you concerns - He knew the onslaught of deception was something the believers would find too hard to bare so He arranged for definitive writings to be made to keep believers on track.
It is hard to take the position that the New Testament was not commissioned by God when one reads the words of Rev 22.

Carl Emerson · May 8, 2020

Radagast said:
I don't think there were any actual papal pronouncements from the period that needed re-evaluation.

The only aspect I know much about is the Galileo story. Galileo was indeed condemned by the Inquisition; but the Pope himself never actually said that Galileo was wrong.

6 centuries is a long time and at least 10 Popes...

Radagast · May 8, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
6 centuries is a long time and at least 10 Popes...

I'm not a fan of having Popes, of course (I'm a Calvinist).

I was just pointing out that the "papal infallibility" card hasn't been played nearly as often as many people think.

Jipsah · May 9, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
What scriptural support is there for believing the bread and the wine become the body and blood during the Eucharist.

Our Lord explicitly said so, and St. Paul emphatically affirms it.

Is this through the faith of the partaker or the one who officiates?

Neither, it is through God's design.

Does this mean partaking in Christ in this way is necessary for salvation?

No. But I find it impossible to understand how any Christian woiuld fail to partake.

Jipsah · May 9, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Is this more than the promise to be in the midst when believers gather?

Yes, it is explicitly what our Lord said it was.

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