Who Goes To Hell?

Saint Steven · May 8, 2020

thomas_t said:
Thanks Steve for the verse:
But the Greek version contains no verb in Romans 5:18. Hence the "resulted in" is added. It's presumption. In my opinion, you could fill in "provides an offer for" instead.
Adding words to the Bible, in my opinion, always means taking a risk. You can translate in a way that it becomes modern day English, but why not add a little asterisc saying that the "resulted in" is not found in the text.

And Romans 5:19 does not speak about "all people" as in 5:18... it speaks about "the many". Paul did not say "these many"... when he could have. Maybe, Paul used "the" instead of "these" for esthetical reasons to have a nice language in Greek. Maybe not. In short: it is as @Der Alter (that's a funny German name) stated in #264 and in #265: it is not the same word as used in the verse before. It changed.

Thanks for your response, thomas.

But wouldn't your insertion of "provides an offer for" be just as much a presumption?
The thought for thought translation here recognizes the STRONG correlation in the two halves of the statement and adds "resulted in" to carry the intent of the writer. The scripture is pasted below for reference.

Notice at the beginning of verse 18 we see the phrase "just as". This means "in the same way". So, the one righteous act "resulted in" the same way as the one trespass. Since the one trespass resulted in condemnation for all, in the same way (just as) the one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. And certainly, those last three words "for all people" would nullify an insertion of "provides an offer for" earlier in the verse. Does that make sense? As you noted, "resulted in" does occur in the second half of verse 18.

In verse 19 we see the word "many" used instead of "all". (as noted) However, the same STRONG comparative is being made. Would you agree that through the disobedience of the one man, that all were made sinners? (many = all) Adam's sin did not result in only a few being made sinners, correct? Is not all of humankind effected by the Fall? All of humankind are sinners. The word "many" here certainly means "all".

Therefore, we need to apply the same STRONG comparative we saw in verse 18 to verse 19. Both verses contain the phrase "just as" at the beginning. And they both contain the phrase "so also" between the comparatives. We have a "just as" and "so also" dynamic in both verses. In the same way this happened, this also happened. Verse 19 ends the second comparative saying that "through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." And "just as" the many (all) were made sinners, "so also" the many (all) will be made righteous.

I hope that helps.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

ClementofA · May 8, 2020

thomas_t said:
But the Greek version contains no verb in Romans 5:18. Hence the "resulted in" is added. It's presumption. In my opinion, you could fill in "provides an offer for" instead.
Adding words to the Bible, in my opinion, always means taking a risk. You can translate in a way that it becomes modern day English, but why not add a little asterisc saying that the "resulted in" is not found in the text.

The following is from the book referred to below:

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

thomas_t said:
And Romans 5:19 does not speak about "all people" as in 5:18... it speaks about "the many". Paul did not say "these many"... when he could have. Maybe, Paul used "the" instead of "these" for esthetical reasons to have a nice language in Greek. Maybe not. In short: it is as @Der Alter (that's a funny German name) stated in #264 and in #265: it is not the same word as used in the verse before. It changed.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

thomas_t · May 8, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Please tell me what is funny about it. What does it mean? Thanks.

To me, it sounds a bit like rough man's talk, or youth's slander. Correct spelling would be "der Alte". "der Alter" sounds unintendedly funny.

Saint Steven said:
But wouldn't your insertion of "provides an offer for" be just as much a presumption?

yes. However, those who claim Universal Reconciliation are those who the onus is on, I think.
I'm not even saying there won't be any universal reconciliation. Jesus is the judge, he will decide.
But man declaring beforhand "this is how Jesus will judge" when there is not one single passage supporting this view... goes a little too far, I guess.
Let's stay with the Bible. Let's state what is stated and be silent about what is not, ok?

Saint Steven said:
Notice at the beginning of verse 18 we see the phrase "just as". This means "in the same way".

This alone does not justify sticking in "results in", in my opinion. "just as" can refer to the way sin is passed on to humans by Adam.

Saint Steven said:
As you noted, "resulted in" does occur in the second half of verse 18.

here you misunderstood what I wrote. The Greek version does not know such a word in said verse.

Saint Steven said:
And certainly, those last three words "for all people" would nullify an insertion of "provides an offer for" earlier in the verse.

no, I don't think so.

Saint Steven said:
I hope that helps.

no, I don't ask you for help. I disagree with your theology.

Saint Steven said:
In verse 19 we see the word "many" used instead of "all". (as noted) However, the same STRONG comparative is being made. Would you agree that through the disobedience of the one man, that all were made sinners? (many = all) Adam's sin did not result in only a few being made sinners, correct? Is not all of humankind effected by the Fall? All of humankind are sinners. The word "many" here certainly means "all".

that's your interpretation only.
we see first "all people" in verse 18. Later, we see "the many" in verse 19. Last, we see "we" in verse 21.
In Universal Reconciliation, verse 21 also would need to be interpreted as meaning "all people". So why insert the same "all people" three times... when Paul used distinctive wording for the three?
You can interpret it to be narrowing the group down from "all people" to a chosen few, instead.
While it is correct that everyone suffers from Adam's sin... it still says "many" in verse 19. All else is "correcting" scripture.

Thanks for displaying your way of thought though. It is interesting indeed. I'm not saying you're wrong with your reconciliation thing. I'm just saying you might be... and it is better to remain silent on topics Bible remains silent also. That's my point here in this thread.

Saint Steven · May 8, 2020

thomas_t said:
yes. However, those who claim Universal Reconciliation are those who the onus is on, I think.
I'm not even saying there won't be any universal reconciliation. Jesus is the judge, he will decide.
But man declaring beforhand "this is how Jesus will judge" when there is not one single passage supporting this view... goes a little too far, I guess.
Let's stay with the Bible. Let's state what is stated and be silent about what is not, ok?

But isn't that precisely what I have just shown you? How can you say, "there is not one single passage supporting this view", when we are presently discussing one? And I have many more we can discuss, if you like.

Saint Steven said: ↑
But wouldn't your insertion of "provides an offer for" be just as much a presumption?

Saint Steven · May 8, 2020

thomas_t said:
Thanks for displaying your way of thought though. It is interesting indeed. I'm not saying you're wrong with your reconciliation thing. I'm just saying you might be... and it is better to remain silent on topics Bible remains silent also. That's my point here in this thread.

I appreciate that you are willing to learn about these things so that you can understand where we are coming from. Thanks.

Der Alte · May 8, 2020

Saint Steven said:
...
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Paul used the word "pollus"/"many" 71 times. He used the word "pas"/"all" 375 times When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas" not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used "oi polloi"/"the many" nine times where it clearly does not mean "all."
In one verse Rom 12:4 Paul used “the many” and “all” in the same verse.
Romans 12:4, Romans 15:22, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13

Der Alte · May 8, 2020

thomas_t said:
To me, it sounds a bit like rough man's talk, or youth's slander. Correct spelling would be "der Alte". "der Alter" sounds unintendedly funny...

Es tut mir leid. Typo when I registered and have to jump through too many hoops to change it.

ETA: Und jetzt nach viele jahre mein name is richtig.

1213 · May 8, 2020

Saint Steven said:
This scripture says they will.
Verse 19 says through the disobedience one, many were made sinners. (many = all)
And through the obedience of one, many will be made righteous. (many = all)...

Please tell why do you think many means all?

FineLinen · May 8, 2020

1213 said:
Please tell why do you think many means all?

The koine polus means many. The same many who are made sinners in Adam1, or if you prefer "accounted", are the identical many in the Last Adam "made righteous."

agapelove · May 8, 2020

1213 said:
Please tell why do you think many means all?

Who was made a sinner through the disobedience of Adam?

agapelove · May 8, 2020

thomas_t said:
Thanks for displaying your way of thought though. It is interesting indeed. I'm not saying you're wrong with your reconciliation thing. I'm just saying you might be... and it is better to remain silent on topics Bible remains silent also. That's my point here in this thread.

I appreciate your humility and openness to the topic.

You're right. Universalists might be wrong.

Infernalists might also be wrong and annihilists might also be wrong as well. It would be a perfect world if everyone just minded their own business and stayed silent but that won't happen right?

The Bible does not remain silent about the topic of universal reconciliation in fact it obligates us to the ministry of it. 2 Corinthians 5:18-19: "All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation."

ClementofA · May 8, 2020

Der Alter said:
Greek is now and has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking EOB translators, knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = =
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = =
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.

Der Alter said:
I have quoted from the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible several times but it is not "literal" enough for them.

Does it use deceptive mis-translations like "forever and ever"?

Der Alter said:
Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church.
Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”

So just by being born in Greece it makes a Greek scholar your "Pope" of all Greek scholars & the rest are just amateurs in comparison?

The native Greek language spoken by those scholars born in Greece is not NT Koine Greek, but modern Greek. It is quite different after almost 2000 years distance from Christ.

Who better than the native Greek speaking scholars who were born into NT Koine Greek speaking cultures and were Early Church Father & church leading Universalists, to know the meaning of NT Greek words.

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley

Der Alter said:
…..Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.

First, that Greek word aionios does not occur in 1 Tim.1:17. Secondly, nothing in the verses say they are "synonymous" with anything. Third, you simply state that without any reason, evidence, logic or proof to support it. You might as well have said "dog is synonymous with cat, they both have a tail". Let's see your evidence that dog = cat.

Your posts repeatedly assume a "contrast" somehow gave you a "definition". (Yet you never state how). That's like saying a sentence with a contrast between "eonian life" & "death" in it proves that "eonian" means "eternal". That's the level of your logic in your post. You assume as proven what you have failed to prove.

Der Alter said:
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = =
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =

Matthew 25:46
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

Der Alter said:
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.

"The king of the underworld is immortal, cute, a killer, etc". To use your type of faulty reasoning/logic, since "immortal" is paired with "cute", cute must logically be defined as eternal. Wrong. And the king must be eternally cute. Wrong. And because immortal is paired with killer, the king must be eternally killing for all eternity. Wrong. And killer must be defined as eternal. Wrong.

In another post you committed the same error, saying: "Here Origen defines "aionios" as "eternal" by pairing it with "immortality." ". Same idea as my example above with the king of the underworld. Faulty logic. Faulty reasoning. Hence an unproven, unwarranted assumption.

Saint Steven · May 8, 2020

1213 said:
Please tell why do you think many means all?

Gladly.
This passage makes two equal comparisons. In verse 18 "all" is equal to "all".
In verse 19 "many" is equal to "many". But we know that the first many is equal to "all".
Hopefully you would agree that "all" were made sinners through the disobedience of the one man. (Adam) So in that case "many" = all. Therefore, the many made righteous is also "all".

Furthermore, both verses begin with the phrase "just as" and insert the phrase "so also" between the two comparatives. So, the idea of "in the same way" drives the comparisons. Therefore "many" = "all".

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Saint Steven · May 8, 2020

agapelove said:
Who was made a sinner through the disobedience of Adam?

Right.
Who was made a sinner through the disobedience of Adam?
In this case, many = all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Der Alte · May 8, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Right.
Who was made a sinner through the disobedience of Adam?
In this case, many = all.
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Paul used the word "pollus"/"many" 71 times. He used the word "pas"/"all" 375 times When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas" not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used "oi polloi"/"the many" ten times where it clearly does not mean "all."
In one verse Rom 12:4 Paul used both “the many” and “all” in the same verse.
Romans 12:4, Romans 15:22, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13

ClementofA · May 9, 2020

Der Alte said:
Paul used the word "pollus"/"many" 71 times. He used the word "pas"/"all" 375 times When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas" not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used "oi polloi"/"the many" ten times where it clearly does not mean "all."
In one verse Rom 12:4 Paul used both “the many” and “all” in the same verse.
Romans 12:4, Romans 15:22, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13

Here's what you've never answered:

Der Alter said:
Lest the unwary be misled by heterodox doctrine.
Here it is being presented that "the many" in Rom 5:19 really means "all."
Paul used the word "pollus"/"many" 71 times. He used the word "pas"/"all" 375 times When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas" not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used "oi polloi"/"the many" ten times where it clearly does not mean "all."
In one verse Paul used both "all" and "pollus" in the same verse, Rom 12:4.
Romans 12:4, Romans 15:22, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13

XYZ said:
Yep did you notice the "MANY" does not mean the "ALL"? Again did you know that the "MANY" are the "JUST"?

The "many" (v.19a) are not the "just". They are those who "were constituted sinners" (v.19a) "through one offense" (v.19a), i.e. Adam's sin. That "many" is, therefore, all mankind with the exception of Christ. Hence "many", not "all" mankind.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Verse 19 uses the word "many" instead of "all" as in verse 18. Not all men have been "constituted sinners" (v.19), Christ being an obvious exception. Some would also include as exceptions those humans who have been this moment conceived, preborn babies, infants, etc. So, therefore, Paul says "many" in verse 19 rather than "all".

Rom.5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL MEN, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL MEN.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man THE MANY were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man THE MANY will be made righteous.

If Paul didn't wish to parallel both occurrences of "THE MANY" in verse 19, then he would have said "some" or "few" instead of "THE MANY" in the second occurrence. Clearly he was teaching by the parallel of two occurrences of "THE MANY" (v.19) that all those who "were made sinners" will "be made righteous".

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever [or annihilated for eternity].

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11). For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108...

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it." (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

thomas_t · May 9, 2020

agapelove said:
You're right. Universalists might be wrong.

I appreciate you not being docmatic about Universal Reconciliation.

agapelove said:
The Bible does not remain silent about the topic of universal reconciliation in fact it obligates us to the ministry of it. 2 Corinthians 5:18-19: "All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation."

but it is written in past tense and Universal Reconciliation, as I see it, teaches that once reconciled ... regardless of people's faith... it's impossible to fall out of this reconciliation in future and for all eternities.
I don't see this in the Bible.

Saint Steven · May 9, 2020

thomas_t said:
but it is written in past tense and Universal Reconciliation, as I see it, teaches that once reconciled ... regardless of people's faith... it's impossible to fall out of this reconciliation in future and for all eternities.
I don't see this in the Bible.

That's OSAS, not UR.
Do you believe someone can lose their salvation?
How can we, by an act of our own free will, undo what only God can do in the first place?
Even in the case of reprobation, the decision is up to God, not us.

Der Alte · May 9, 2020

Saint Steven said:
That's OSAS, not UR.
Do you believe someone can lose their salvation?
How can we, by an act of our own free will, undo what only God can do in the first place?
Even in the case of reprobation, the decision is up to God, not us.

The writer of Hebrews knew that Christians could apostasize.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

ClementofA · May 9, 2020

Der Alte said:
The writer of Hebrews knew that Christians could apostasize.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

How the universal salvation doctrine of Scripture harmonizes with Hebrews 6:

impossible to renew unto repentance (Heb.6:3-6)

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