Judge Not: False Doctrine

HARK! · May 7, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
“Oh there are verses in the Bible they don’t support my position? They aren’t really in the Bible.”
There I fixed it

That verse was written in long ago, to support false doctrine.

Beanieboy · May 8, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Mt 7:1
"Do not judge, lest you may be judged,

So many read that verse and stop short; to say that we should exercise judgement, concerning the wicked. That we should just turn a blind eye to wickedness and go off into a day dream singing, "la la la - la la." "I have no responsibility to see the world for what it is." "There is no wrong; there is no right in my eyes. It's all on the Father's hands"

The very next verse:

(CLV) Mt 7:2
for with what judgment you are judging, shall you be judged, and with what measure you are measuring, shall it be measured to you.

YHWH calls us to righteous judgement. This falls in line with what is mentioned just a few verses later:

(CLV) Mt 7:12
All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.

Yahshua doesn't contradict himself.

(CLV) Jn 7:24
Be not judging by the countenance, but be judging just judging."

Again he tells us to judge justly.

(CLV) 1Co 6:3
Are you not aware that we shall be judging messengers, not to mention life's affairs?

Let me quote where Jesus told someone they judged rightly:

Luke7v36to50

Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is - that she is a sinner."

Jesus anwered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."

"Tell me, teacher," he said.

"Two men owed money to a certain money-lender. One owed him five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he cancelled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"

Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt cancelled."

"You have judged correctly," Jesus said.

Then he turned towards the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You did not give me a kiss, but this woman from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven - for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."

Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"

Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

How did Simon judge rightly? Not by judging Jesus for allowing a sinner to come to him, nor judging the woman.

He judged rightly in admitting he showed less love for Christ than the woman did, that the woman honored Jesus more than he did himself.

It's interesting that you don't finish the "judge not" passage, which says if you have a 2x4 in your own eye, how can you judge the person with a piece of sawdust. Hypocrite!

First, remove the 2x4 from your own eye, then help your neighbor remove the sawdust from theirs.

So often, I have had a Christian say, "I can judge a person doing x when I am not doing x myself, so, not a hypocrite.

If that were true, Christ would have said to remove the 2x4 from your eye to remove the 2x4 from your neighbor.

A 2x4 would block your vision. It would poke out your neighbor's eye when trying to remove the sawdust.

What is said is to remove something significant from your eye to help your neighbor with something minor.

One of the major problems the Pharisees had was using the law to burden people, rather than guide them, with laws such as the number of steps one can take on the Sabbath. Yet, they didn't follow these same rules themselves. They did this because the enjoyed the power if authority, had access to Scriptures and could read, so their interpretation was thought to be the Word of God. They were thought to be holy by the people.

They lacked love. They lacked mercy, and humility. They not only judged those who Christ ate with, they wouldn't even acknowledge them, thinking God couldn't possibly love sinners, and Christ, in eating with them, honored them, showed them that they were loved now, as they were. This is what changed so many people who encountered Christ.

If you judge with harshness, you will be judged harshly. If you judge from a legal standpoint, so shall you be held to the entire law.

Christ was not harsh with the sinners.

He was harshest with the Pharisees, over confident in their holiness. He chastised them for knowing how much dill and thyme to tithe, but not mercy, love and forgiveness.

And so you present a false dichotomy:
A) Judge someone for their sin
B) Ignore any sin or injustice all together

Those aren't the only choices.

Before I point out the sin of another, I look at myself first. What is my motivation? Do I want to feel superior? Do I want to point out their sin to pull focus from mine? Do I want to be right?

Am I really doing it to help them, for their benefit? Or do I want them to obey me, and agree with my position?

Then I pray about it, seeking the spirit for advice.

NonChristians often see Christians as being judgemental:
"I'm here to talk to all you drunkards. I'm here to talk to all you fornicatirs. I'm here to talk to all you herma-sexshals. Repent...from yer wicked ways-ah! Or you will burn..."
U of Mn crowd: The Lake of Fire!!!!wooooo"

Brother Jed and Sister Cindy judged all of these people, but never really sat down with anyone, and met them. They preached ridiculously, and students treated like Rocky Horror Picture Show, the students reinforcing how religion is just crazy, and Brother Jed and Sister Cindy, often laughed at, able to convince themselves the world is evil.

Christ didn't walk through town, pointing and calling people's sin, and condemning them or demanding repentance. He healed the sick, as he said. He allowed them to understand that they were loved by the Father. He built then up.

So in my life, I look at my own weaknesses, and pray to change my life, the only one I can control.

I allow others the right to have free will and make their own choices. Should I need to point out a friend's drinking problem, for example, I do it in support, and then let it go.

However, if I see someone harming others, discriminating against others, or see social injustice, I fight against it by drawing attention to it.

Why would anyone waste the majority of their time just judging others? For what purpose?

TLSITD · May 8, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
“Let he who is without sin throw the first stone.”
Crickets.

1 Corinthians 5:1-13

HARK! · May 8, 2020

Beanieboy said:
Let me quote where Jesus told someone they judged rightly:

Luke7v36to50

Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is - that she is a sinner."

Jesus anwered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."

"Tell me, teacher," he said.

"Two men owed money to a certain money-lender. One owed him five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he cancelled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"

Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt cancelled."

"You have judged correctly," Jesus said.

Then he turned towards the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You did not give me a kiss, but this woman from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven - for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."

Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"

Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

How did Simon judge rightly? Not by judging Jesus for allowing a sinner to come to him, nor judging the woman.

He judged rightly in admitting he showed less love for Christ than the woman did, that the woman honored Jesus more than he did himself.

Was the woman repentant? Right out of the gate we get to the root of the matter. Don't tell me that you're robbing little old ladies at knife point; then when I call you on it; you say, "don't judge me." I'm going to judge you. If you aren't convicted; you will be when the jury gets done with you.

Beanieboy said:
It's interesting that you don't finish the "judge not" passage, which says if you have a 2x4 in your own eye, how can you judge the person with a piece of sawdust. Hypocrite!

First, remove the 2x4 from your own eye, then help your neighbor remove the sawdust from theirs.

So often, I have had a Christian say, "I can judge a person doing x when I am not doing x myself, so, not a hypocrite.

If that were true, Christ would have said to remove the 2x4 from your eye to remove the 2x4 from your neighbor.

A 2x4 would block your vision. It would poke out your neighbor's eye when trying to remove the sawdust.

What is said is to remove something significant from your eye to help your neighbor with something minor.

I wasn't discussing hypocrisy. Wrong thread. This thread is about just judgement. I'll judge hypocrites too. Yahshua did it lots of times. He calls us to follow his righteous example.

Beanieboy said:
One of the major problems the Pharisees had was using the law to burden people, rather than guide them, with laws such as the number of steps one can take on the Sabbath. Yet, they didn't follow these same rules themselves. They did this because the enjoyed the power if authority, had access to Scriptures and could read, so their interpretation was thought to be the Word of God. They were thought to be holy by the people.

They lacked love. They lacked mercy, and humility. They not only judged those who Christ ate with, they wouldn't even acknowledge them, thinking God couldn't possibly love sinners, and Christ, in eating with them, honored them, showed them that they were loved now, as they were. This is what changed so many people who encountered Christ.

The Pharisees were making up laws as they went along. They weren't magnifying the Torah they were adding to it. Yahshua called them on it. Just judgement.

Beanieboy said:
If you judge with harshness, you will be judged harshly. If you judge from a legal standpoint, so shall you be held to the entire law.

Were held to the entire law whether we acknowledge it or not. If you judge justly you will be judged justly. What's wrong with just judgement? This is what we are called to do.

Beanieboy said:
Christ was not harsh with the sinners.

Yes he was, when they were unrepentant. Just judgement.

Beanieboy said:
He was harshest with the Pharisees, over confident in their holiness. He chastised them for knowing how much dill and thyme to tithe, but not mercy, love and forgiveness.

I thought you just said that he wasn't harsh.

Beanieboy said:
And so you present a false dichotomy:
A) Judge someone for their sin
B) Ignore any sin or injustice all together

How does one recognize sin in absence of just judgement?

Beanieboy said:
Those aren't the only choices.

Before I point out the sin of another, I look at myself first. What is my motivation? Do I want to feel superior? Do I want to point out their sin to pull focus from mine? Do I want to be right?

Again, I'm not talking about hypocrisy. I'm talking about just judgement.

Beanieboy said:
NonChristians often see Christians as being judgemental:
"I'm here to talk to all you drunkards. I'm here to talk to all you fornicatirs. I'm here to talk to all you herma-sexshals. Repent...from yer wicked ways-ah! Or you will burn..."
U of Mn crowd: The Lake of Fire!!!!wooooo"

Brother Jed and Sister Cindy judged all of these people, but never really sat down with anyone, and met them. They preached ridiculously, and students treated like Rocky Horror Picture Show, the students reinforcing how religion is just crazy, and Brother Jed and Sister Cindy, often laughed at, able to convince themselves the world is evil.

Good advice.

Beanieboy said:
Christ didn't walk through town, pointing and calling people's sin,

Yes he did.

Beanieboy said:
and condemning them or demanding repentance. He healed the sick, as he said. He allowed them to understand that they were loved by the Father. He built then up.

John the Baptist was calling them to repentance. Gotta love John...

Beanieboy said:
So in my life, I look at my own weaknesses, and pray to change my life, the only one I can control.

So do I.

Beanieboy said:
I allow others the right to have free will and make their own choices. Should I need to point out a friend's drinking problem, for example, I do it in support, and then let it go.

Matthew 18:15-17 New Matthew Bible (NMB)
15 Moreover, if your brother trespasses against you, go and tell him his fault between him and you alone. If he hears you, you have redeemed your brother. 16 But if he does not hear you, then take along with you one or two others, so that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not hear them, tell it to the congregation. If he does not hear the congregation, take him as a heathen man and as a publican.

Beanieboy said:
However, if I see someone harming others, discriminating against others, or see social injustice, I fight against it by drawing attention to it.

Why judge one and not the other? Isn't that discriminating?

Beanieboy said:
Why would anyone waste the majority of their time just judging others? For what purpose?

It really doesn't take that much time. If they don't receive me; I just wipe the dust from my feet and move on. It gives me more time to spend with someone who loves the truth.

zoidar · May 8, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Mt 7:1
"Do not judge, lest you may be judged,

So many read that verse and stop short; to say that we should exercise judgement, concerning the wicked. That we should just turn a blind eye to wickedness and go off into a day dream singing, "la la la - la la." "I have no responsibility to see the world for what it is." "There is no wrong; there is no right in my eyes. It's all on the Father's hands"

The very next verse:

(CLV) Mt 7:2
for with what judgment you are judging, shall you be judged, and with what measure you are measuring, shall it be measured to you.

YHWH calls us to righteous judgement. This falls in line with what is mentioned just a few verses later:

(CLV) Mt 7:12
All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.

Yahshua doesn't contradict himself.

(CLV) Jn 7:24
Be not judging by the countenance, but be judging just judging."

Again he tells us to judge justly.

(CLV) 1Co 6:3
Are you not aware that we shall be judging messengers, not to mention life's affairs?

Luke 6
41 Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 42 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

ABCthings · May 8, 2020

Sabertooth said:
We are supposed to assess, but not condemn. Since we will be judged by our own standards, we want to be sure to include the offer of grace.

Sometimes there is a thin line between the two. Just like giving CnC

Sabertooth · May 8, 2020

ABCthings said:
Just like giving CnC

What is CnC?

Neostarwcc · May 8, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Mt 7:1
"Do not judge, lest you may be judged,

So many read that verse and stop short; to say that we should exercise judgement, concerning the wicked. That we should just turn a blind eye to wickedness and go off into a day dream singing, "la la la - la la." "I have no responsibility to see the world for what it is." "There is no wrong; there is no right in my eyes. It's all on the Father's hands"

The very next verse:

(CLV) Mt 7:2
for with what judgment you are judging, shall you be judged, and with what measure you are measuring, shall it be measured to you.

YHWH calls us to righteous judgement. This falls in line with what is mentioned just a few verses later:

(CLV) Mt 7:12
All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.

Yahshua doesn't contradict himself.

(CLV) Jn 7:24
Be not judging by the countenance, but be judging just judging."

Again he tells us to judge justly.

(CLV) 1Co 6:3
Are you not aware that we shall be judging messengers, not to mention life's affairs?

You're right. What Jesus Christ was saying here was that we cant be hypocrites in our judgements of others as well.

If you cheat on your wife constantly than you have no right to judge somebody who cheats also. First you have to tell your wife and work it out together, never cheat on her again, and THEN you can judge the other person for cheating. Otherwise God will say on judgement day that you were a hypocrite in doing so.

Or if you judge someone for lying and cussing, and you lie and cuss up a storm.

Mountainmanbob · May 8, 2020

Is there some judgment going on here?

Confront your brother regarding his sin.
If he doesn't repent
take him to the Church.
If he doesn't repent there
kick him out of the church.
M

Monksailor · May 8, 2020

HARK! said:
I'll present the bank robber scenario again:

How do you set yourself apart from those you are in a car with, who start talking about robbing a bank?

How about you use some judgement; and the first time they make a stop, you slip away, never to be seen by them again?

Is it condemnation to wipe the dust from your feet?

I believe you are talking about wisdom here. Proverbs tells us "Bad company corrupts good character" and common sense tells anyone not to hang around with bad people, esp. law breakers.

Monksailor · May 8, 2020

HARK! said:
So is it simply knowledge that sets us apart; or is there some sort of action that is a result of that knowledge?

The "action" is bringing "every thought into obedience to Christ." That is hard work. It is real hard not to judge others as Christ commands.

Broken Fence · May 8, 2020

HARK! said:
I'll present the bank robber scenario again:

How do you set yourself apart from those you are in a car with, who start talking about robbing a bank?

How about you use some judgement; and the first time they make a stop, you slip away, never to be seen by them again?

Is it condemnation to wipe the dust from your feet?

I certainly understand your statement. Romans 3:31

Monksailor · May 8, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Mt 7:1
"Do not judge, lest you may be judged,

It is quite interesting that you chose the CLV version. The overwhelming majority of other versions inform us that judging others WILL IMPERATIVELY and DEFINITELY result in our being jugged for judging others and your single version uses the word "MIGHT." For other versions go to this link for example: Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge, or you will be judged.

Broken Fence · May 8, 2020

Monksailor said:
It is quite interesting that you chose the CLV version. The overwhelming majority of other versions inform us that judging others WILL IMPERATIVELY and DEFINITELY result in our being jugged for judging others and your single version uses the word "MIGHT." For other versions go to this link for example: Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge, or you will be judged.

I agree, let every person be fully persuaded in her/his own mind. Thy law, oh God is judgement.

Monksailor · May 8, 2020

Mountainmanbob said:
Is there some judgment going on here?

Confront your brother regarding his sin.
If he doesn't repent
take him to the Church.
If he doesn't repent there
kick him out of the church.
M

Hi, MMB. I would call it just common sense and implementation of wisdom. Judgement is not needed. We inherently know, believer or not, what is right and wrong whether we want to or not thanks to Adam and Eve and reiterated in Ro ch1. Also, Proverbs, like I said earlier, informs us that bad company corrupts good character. Additionally, we are told not to have the appearance of evil. Keeping them among a body of Christ would bring disgrace to our Lord and Savior. No judgement needed. Just common sense would predicate that after the THREE step process of church discipline you dissociate one from among you who insists upon not turning from their evil ways.

Scott Husted · May 8, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Mt 7:1
"Do not judge, lest you may be judged,

So many read that verse and stop short; to say that we should exercise judgement, concerning the wicked. That we should just turn a blind eye to wickedness and go off into a day dream singing, "la la la - la la." "I have no responsibility to see the world for what it is." "There is no wrong; there is no right in my eyes. It's all on the Father's hands"

The very next verse:

(CLV) Mt 7:2
for with what judgment you are judging, shall you be judged, and with what measure you are measuring, shall it be measured to you.

YHWH calls us to righteous judgement. This falls in line with what is mentioned just a few verses later:

(CLV) Mt 7:12
All, then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also, be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets.

Yahshua doesn't contradict himself.

(CLV) Jn 7:24
Be not judging by the countenance, but be judging just judging."

Again he tells us to judge justly.

(CLV) 1Co 6:3
Are you not aware that we shall be judging messengers, not to mention life's affairs?

We judge Angel's now ...

Monksailor · May 8, 2020

Identifying behavior as sin or evil is NOT necessarily a judgement. Just as with sin, when Adam and Eve partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, mankind became endowed with such knowledge. Additionally, and in this case, we as believers have God's Word to inform us what good and evil behavior is. If we identify behavior in another which aligns with what God has already judged as good or evil we are not judging, rather and merely appropriately labeling something according to God's judgements/definitions of good and bad behavior.

Judgement begins when we begin to examine the individual's worth, motives, and intentions and NOT exclusively just their behavior.

Added: I forgot to mention another attribute which humans all have in identifying evil, " since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." Ro 1:19-20 NIV

ABCthings · May 8, 2020

Sabertooth said:
What is CnC?

Constructive Criticism :wave:

Monksailor · May 8, 2020

ABCthings said:
Constructive Criticism

My brother was Journeyman cnc operator but it had nothing to do with that. LOL

HARK! · May 8, 2020

zoidar said:
Luke 6
41 Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 42 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

Again, this thread isn't about hypocrisy. Yahshua clearly rebukes hypocrisy.

Judge Not: False Doctrine

Are we to exercise judgement?

Judge justly

Judge not

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