Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

Shrewd Manager · May 7, 2020

Der Alter said:
So you concede that there is not one single verse, in either testament, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, is speaking which clearly, unequivocally states that all mankind, righteous and unrighteous alike, will be saved, even after death.
What UR-ites have is a list of out-of-context proof texts from which UR-ites infer their doctrines. Much like this Matt 27:5 "Judas hanged himself." Luk 10:37 "Go thou and do likewise."

Look der Alter, there's no point saving the righteous as they're healthy. Jesus comes for the sick: the leper, the lame, the blind, the foolish, the addict, the dead, the lost, the loveless, faithless and hopeless, the prisoner whether by their own devise or another's, the poor, the broken, the diseased, the murderer, the rapist, the pedophile, the taxman, the liar, the coward, the scumbag politician, the loanshark, the pimp, the poisoner, the inventor of evil things, the traitor and yes, even you and I!

Yea the Great Physician has diagnosed the whole world is suffering from a terminal case of sin. But don't fret - he's got the true miracle cure. Some require stronger medicine (eg full immersion in the lake of gehenna fire) and need to be coaxed a little by the HS and the Bride, but none can resist grace forever. Exitus et reditus: as all things proceed from God, so too shall all return.

I think you're confusing the 'what' with the 'how'. Death is part of the cure, the patient has to die to sin, the sinful parts have to die, so the new man can emerge purified in the blood of Christ.

Shrewd Manager · May 7, 2020

ClementofA said:
213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

Put a damnationist on the stand and cross-examine with those questions, he'd be like the Rich Man in Hades, dying for a drink to ease the fire of indignation and blind to the great impassable gulf before him.

Saint Steven · May 7, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Look der Alter, there's no point saving the righteous as they're healthy. Jesus comes for the sick: the leper, the lame, the blind, the foolish, the addict, the dead, the lost, the loveless, faithless and hopeless, the prisoner whether by their own devise or another's, the poor, the broken, the diseased, the murderer, the rapist, the pedophile, the taxman, the liar, the coward, the scumbag politician, the loanshark, the pimp, the poisoner, the inventor of evil things, the traitor and yes, even you and I!

Yea the Great Physician has diagnosed the whole world is suffering from a terminal case of sin. But don't fret - he's got the true miracle cure. Some require stronger medicine (eg full immersion in the lake of gehenna fire) and need to be coaxed a little by the HS and the Bride, but none can resist grace forever. Exitus et reditus: as all things proceed from God, so too shall all return.

I think you're confusing the 'what' with the 'how'. Death is part of the cure, the patient has to die to sin, the sinful parts have to die, so the new man can emerge purified in the blood of Christ.

You got that right!

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Der Alte · May 7, 2020

Saint Steven said:
You got that right!
Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

When does the Doctor go to where ever the dead go and preach to them? Where is that scripture that shows Jesus healing anyone after death?
What was Jesus' "work," his earthly ministry?

Luke 4:18-19
18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

This says nothing about preaching to dead spirits in hell or anywhere else. The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoners of war."
But Jesus said there was a time coming when He could no longer do His work.

John 9:4-5
4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.
5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

So when does Jesus preach to the dead?

Romans 10:13-14
13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

ClementofA · May 7, 2020

Der Alter said:
When does the Doctor go to where ever the dead go and preach to them? Where is that scripture that shows Jesus healing anyone after death?

I'm sure it's in here somewhere:

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

Der Alter said:
What was Jesus' "work," his earthly ministry?

Der Alter said:
Luke 4:18-19

Evidently He was still working when He was dead and after His resurrection & also after His ascension to heaven even up to this very day.

Der Alter said:
But Jesus said there was a time coming when He could no longer do His work.

John 9:4-5
4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.
5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

Here is the next verse of the context, telling us what kind of "works" are being referred to:

Jn.9:6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,

John 9:4-5 speaks of night (which is when it gets dark). Compare:

Mt.27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

Was Jesus laying hands on - or did He "anoint" (Jn.9:6) - any blind, sick or lame people when on the cross in darkness? Were His 12 apostles?

Compare: "Day signifies Jesus Messianic ministry, and the night refers to the Crucifixion" (NKJV note at Jn.9:4, see url below):

NKJV, New Spirit-Filled Life Bible, eBook

1213 · May 7, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

Bible tells also this:

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luke 4:18-19

But he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the Kingdom of God to the other cities also. For this reason I have been sent."
Luke 4:43

I think he was successful, because even I can read the message that can save. I think he is the savior of the world, because through him is the forgiveness of sins declared.

nolidad · May 7, 2020

ClementofA said:
Could disembodied non physical human beings in Hades now be suffering bodily physical torment?

Of course! Paul said there is a natural body and a spiritual body.

ClementofA said:
That doesn't necessarily follow logically.

You say that only because you read it with a pre-conceived agenda! For if it were a learning experience it would imply an abilioty that once one learned what had to be learned- they could cross over instead of being there to this present day!

ClementofA said:
Lk.16:26a, CLV, And in all this, between us and you a great chasm has been established,

It does not say this chasm will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Neither does it explain what keeps those who are in torments from crossing over. Or deny that if they repented they could then end their torments.

The story applies that chasm to Hades & Lazarus' location, while people are there, not to after they get out of Hades. Neither does the story say the chasm is eternal or can never be destroyed or removed. It only applies as a barrier between Hades & Lazarus' location, not to other realms outside of those, such as the lake of fire & the new Jerusalem. In fact, we are told that the gates into the holy city are always open & never shut.

Well then you need to show that they can escape death and hell (for this is the place of torments). The Bible says they do not leave here until the second resurrection and that has a serious foreboding:

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This happens after a first round of judgment. See the 2nd death? It is the destruction of death and the grave- and then those not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. And as I showed FL the punishemntof the lake is not corrective but is basinamos- torture!

ClementofA said:
" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

Well the place of torments has no snow drifts nor is it an equitable comparison! You need to show that after death there is an opportunity to repent!

nolidad · May 7, 2020

ClementofA said:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Yep salvation has been made available to all! But once an unbeliever dies comes their judgment. You repentance after death is just an implication based on you r bias.

BTW: Don't use the emphatic diaglott- only the Watchtower as an organization endorse it, and they don't even use it anymore!

nolidad · May 7, 2020

agapelove said:
In the Olivet Discourse Jesus is VERY CLEAR about what the Kingdom of Heaven is about - caring for the poor and needy. The chasm is a spiritual parallel to the social chasms fixed in life. The rich have made it impossible for the poor to cross that great gulf into their artificial kingdoms and so they have defined their own distance from the Kingdom of Heaven.

The story can very well be factual and representative of what afterlife torment will be like, but in the end we must realize it is but a PARABLE. Who were the people who were listening to this story? It was a call to the Pharisees to turn away from idolatry of self and wealth.

We can not presume to know that the fate of the rich man is set in stone because Judgment Day has not happened yet. Jesus does not say that the rich man is in hell but rather in HADES. The idea that Hades/Sheol was an "after life purgatory" was prevalent among many Jews and you can see evidence of this in scripture. Isaiah called it the "refiner's fire".

Well your is abou tthe 400th interpretation what the story of Lazarus and the rich man is really about! But it is not a parable.

All the parables started with words like these:

3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found,

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

Notice the language? The word like or likened which are comparative words or the fact that the Inspired writer said it was a parable.

Now let us see how th eLazarus account starts:

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Notice no words like "like" l"likenked unto" "is as", "compared"? Jesus simply says "there was a man". Why do we have to think Jesus didn't know what he was saying? also this would be the only parable where people are mentioned individually.

And we can know the fate of this particular man. Jesus declared Him lost and Gods Word says

Hebrews 9:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Not a judgment or a chance to undo the error done in life- but THE judgment.

Saint Steven · May 7, 2020

1213 said:
Bible tells also this:

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luke 4:18-19

But he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the Kingdom of God to the other cities also. For this reason I have been sent."
Luke 4:43

I think he was successful, because even I can read the message that can save. I think he is the savior of the world, because through him is the forgiveness of sins declared.

So, is Jesus the Potential Savior of the World? Or the Savior of the World?

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

FineLinen · May 7, 2020

nolidad said:
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Not a judgment or a chance to undo the error done in life- but THE judgment.

Yup!

"For Christ didn’t enter the earthly version of the Holy Place; he entered the Place Itself, and offered himself to God as the sacrifice for our sins. He doesn’t do this every year as the high priests did under the old plan with blood that was not their own; if that had been the case, he would have to sacrifice himself repeatedly throughout the course of history. But instead he sacrificed himself once and for all, summing up all the other sacrifices in this sacrifice of himself, the final solution of sin.

Everyone has to die once, then face the consequences. Christ’s death was also a one-time event, but it was a sacrifice that took care of sins forever.

And so, when he next appears, the outcome for those eager to greet him is, precisely, salvation." -MSG-

Your questions for today =

1. Is "especially" & "only" synonymous in koine?

2. Does ta pavnte mean the all or tis (some)?

3. Will the Archegos & Prodromos prevail?

agapelove · May 7, 2020

nolidad said:
Well your is abou tthe 400th interpretation what the story of Lazarus and the rich man is really about! But it is not a parable.

Notice no words like "like" l"likenked unto" "is as", "compared"? Jesus simply says "there was a man". Why do we have to think Jesus didn't know what he was saying? also this would be the only parable where people are mentioned individually.

The definition of parable is any story that is intended to teach, particularly in having moral instruction as an ulterior motive.

Just before this parable, Jesus tells another parable about wealth (Luke 16:1–13)—and the passage in between (16:14–18) finds Jesus rebuking the Pharisees for loving money, exalting themselves in self-justification, and ignoring the Old Testament’s authority. All three themes are woven into the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. We have the rich man’s love of money, his self-importance even in Hades, and his rejection of divine revelation.

Jesus knew exactly what He was doing.

nolidad said:
And we can know the fate of this particular man. Jesus declared Him lost and Gods Word says

Hebrews 9:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Not a judgment or a chance to undo the error done in life- but THE judgment.

We die, then judgment, then God, then mercy.

Mercy triumphs over judgment. Mercy will always have the last word. Jesus has already told us that He is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. If you believe that judgment is the end of the story then you have not read far enough.

Saint Steven · May 7, 2020

Mercy triumphs over judgment. - James 2:13

His mercy endures forever. - Ps.118, Ps.136

His loving kindness is everlasting. - Ps.118, Ps.136

FineLinen · May 7, 2020

agapelove said:
We die, then judgment, then God, then mercy.

Mercy triumphs over judgment. Mercy will always have the last word. Jesus has already told us that He is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. If you believe that judgment is the end of the story then you have not read far enough.

Dear Agape: Good ole Noli is not even close to the end of the Story of all stories. Like many fundies, the end of the story is despair added to more & more despair, ad nauseum.

Your expressions on these threads is leaving an old windbag breathless!

Mercy will always have the last word! ! !

Der Alte · May 7, 2020

agapelove said:
The definition of parable is any story that is intended to teach, particularly in having moral instruction as an ulterior motive.
Just before this parable, Jesus tells another parable about wealth (Luke 16:1–13)—and the passage in between (16:14–18) finds Jesus rebuking the Pharisees for loving money, exalting themselves in self-justification, and ignoring the Old Testament’s authority. All three themes are woven into the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. We have the rich man’s love of money, his self-importance even in Hades, and his rejection of divine revelation.
Jesus knew exactly what He was doing.
We die, then judgment, then God, then mercy....

A parable is not just "any story"
παραβολή/parabolē means to lay beside

Thayer Definition:
1) a placing of one thing by the side of another, juxtaposition, as of ships in battle
2) metaphorically
2a) a comparing, comparison of one thing with another, likeness, similitude

Luke 16:19-31 might be some other figure of speech but it does not have the structure of a parable, comparing unknown with something known.
Every ECF who quoted/referred Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.

Reasons why Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable.
…..The Lazarus and the rich man story could be some other type of literary device but it is not a parable. The word “parable” is from the Greek word παραβολή/parabolé which means “to lay beside.” A parable explains or clarifies something unknown by comparison with something known. All unquestioned parables include this comparison e.g. “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field… Matthew 13:24
Jesus introduces five of His parables as such Matthew 21:33, Matthew 24:32, Mark 4:13, Mark 13:28 and Luke 8:11. Others identifies 21 of Jesus’ parables as such.
…..The story of Lazarus is not introduced or identified as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
The story of Lazarus does not have the structure of a parable. There is no comparison between something unknown or misunderstood about the kingdom of heaven and some earthly event.
All unquestioned parables refer to real type events, something which could have or has happened in this life, not something fictitious, unreasonable or impossible. Other than Lazarus and the rich man living and dying, which happens to everybody, there is nothing about the story which is or can be compared to anything in this life.
All unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, a certain shepherd, a certain widow etc. At some time in history a shepherd searched for and found a lost sheep. At some time in history a widow searched for and found a lost coin.
The story of Lazarus names two specific people, Lazarus, otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historic person. If Abraham was never in the place Jesus mentioned and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus was lying.

agapelove · May 7, 2020

Der Alter said:
A parable is not just "any story"
παραβολή/parabolē means to lay beside

Thayer Definition:
1) a placing of one thing by the side of another, juxtaposition, as of ships in battle
2) metaphorically
2a) a comparing, comparison of one thing with another, likeness, similitude
Luke 16:19-31 might be some other figure of speech but it does not have the structure of a parable, comparing unknown with something known.
Every ECF who quoted/referred Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
Reasons why Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable.
…..The Lazarus and the rich man story could be some other type of literary device but it is not a parable. The word “parable” is from the Greek word παραβολή/parabolé which means “to lay beside.” A parable explains or clarifies something unknown by comparison with something known. All unquestioned parables include this comparison e.g. “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field… Matthew 13:24
Jesus introduces five of His parables as such Matthew 21:33, Matthew 24:32, Mark 4:13, Mark 13:28 and Luke 8:11. Others identifies 21 of Jesus’ parables as such.
…..The story of Lazarus is not introduced or identified as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
The story of Lazarus does not have the structure of a parable. There is no comparison between something unknown or misunderstood about the kingdom of heaven and some earthly event.
All unquestioned parables refer to real type events, something which could have or has happened in this life, not something fictitious, unreasonable or impossible. Other than Lazarus and the rich man living and dying, which happens to everybody, there is nothing about the story which is or can be compared to anything in this life.
All unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, a certain shepherd, a certain widow etc. At some time in history a shepherd searched for and found a lost sheep. At some time in history a widow searched for and found a lost coin.
The story of Lazarus names two specific people, Lazarus, otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historic person. If Abraham was never in the place Jesus mentioned and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus was lying.

Thank you for yet another copy and paste as if I didn't read this the first time.

If you would go back and read my post about what Jesus revealed about the Kingdom of Heaven in His Olivet Discourse, then you will see what Jesus is trying to compare.

Also, the traditional flame imagery should be considered no more literal than Abraham's bosom. It is a metaphor. These things represent the agony and deprivation Lazarus knew throughout life, versus the comfort that the rich knew.

So according to your Thayer Definition, the Rich Man and Lazarus meet all three qualifications.

Der Alte · May 7, 2020

agapelove said:
Thank you for yet another copy and paste as if I didn't read this the first time.
If you would go back and read my post about what Jesus revealed about the Kingdom of Heaven in His Olivet Discourse, then you will see what Jesus is trying to compare.
Also, the traditional flame imagery should be considered no more literal than Abraham's bosom. It is a metaphor. These things represent the agony and deprivation Lazarus knew throughout life, versus the comfort that the rich knew.
So according to your Thayer Definition, the Rich Man and Lazarus meet all three qualifications.

Copy/paste implies copying someone else's writing and presenting it as one's own. Everything I post is my own work with quotes of necessary historical, grammatical etc. evidence, which I clearly identify.
If my work is copy/paste your's is even more so.
Your reference to the Olivet discourse is incorrect that happened after Luke 16.
I note that as with most heterodox groups whenever scripture as written contradicts one's doctrine then explain it away by making it figurative; imagery, metaphor. Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to, doing that
Saying "according to your Thayer Definition, the Rich Man and Lazarus meet all three qualifications." doesn't make it so, absent a cogent explanation.
One final point my responses are not just for you but for others who might read this thread and be deceived by the false UR narrative.

agapelove · May 7, 2020

Der Alter said:
Copy/paste implies copying someone else's writing and presenting it as one's own. Everything I post is my own work with quotes of necessary historical, grammatical etc. evidence, which I clearly identify.
If my work is copy/paste your's is even more so.
Your reference to the Olivet discourse is incorrect that happened after Luke 16.
I note that as with most heterodox groups whenever scripture as written contradicts one's doctrine then explain it away by making it figurative; imagery, metaphor. Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to, doing that
Saying "according to your Thayer Definition, the Rich Man and Lazarus meet all three qualifications." doesn't make it so, absent a cogent explanation.
One final point my responses are not just for you but for others who might read this thread and be deceived by the false UR narrative.

I'm sure the "others" who are on this thread can already easily see what you have posted quite literally on the previous page.

Your Thayer Definition defines parable by three qualifications.
1. Juxtaposition Jesus contrasts Abraham's bosom with flames.
2) Metaphor It is obviously a metaphor unless you believe Lazarus is literally resting in Abraham's mammary glands.
3) Comparison Jesus is comparing the rich man to the Pharisees by calling them out on their opulent way of life and their disregard for the poor.

I am not sure what was so confusing about my explanation the first time.

If you want to continue arguing about whether or not Lazarus and the Rich Man was a parable maybe you should start another thread about it because that is not really my main concern here.

ClementofA · May 7, 2020

Der Alter said:
The story of Lazarus names two specific people, Lazarus, otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historic person. If Abraham was never in the place Jesus mentioned and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus was lying.

If you think that's lying then do you think this also is lying:

"Night is coming, when no one can work." (Jn.9:4b).

Saint Steven · May 7, 2020

The word punishment is from the Greek KOLASIS which means simply that - punishment. But it comes from the root KOLAZO which reveals the true nature of the punishment. KOLAZO according to Strong's Concordance, means "to curtail" or "to chastise". The word means "a pruning" according to Liddell and Scott's Greek English Lexicon. it is so used all through the Greek language. That punishment of which the Christ spoke was the very thing that helped me to see the glorious HOPE for all who are unbelievers or rebellious against God - because the word punishment there means chastisement or pruning. I saw in a moment that it was not the destruction of the man; it was the correcting of the man. it was not the destruction of the tree; it was the cutting back, and the pruning, that it might bring forth fruit. Some rightly reason that KOLASIS cannot mean corrective punishment or pruning if it is everlasting. But everlasting is itself wrong - who ever heard of EVERLASTING CORRECTION! It is age-lasting punishment, age-abiding correction, age-during pruning.

There are those who did not enter into His life in ages past, there are those who do not enter into His life in this present age, and there shall be those who will not enter into His life in the age to come. But in the world where God is the King you can count on it - every man will finally have to face up to his waywardness, and being thoroughly disciplined, broken, and purged of self-will, until he is prepared to respond to the love of Christ, to advance from the realm of punishment into the blessing of HIS LIFE and victory. If you do not punish a criminal for his improvement, for what do you punish him? There are just two right reasons - to protect society and to restore the criminal to society improved by the punishment. The "aionian" punishment which will come to every sinner who goes to hell will be a punishment that will break his stubborn, rebellious spirit and bring him back to God!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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