Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

Kermos · May 5, 2020

topher694 said:
1) I asserted no such thing
2) I made no such claim
3) I made no such claim
4) complete misrepresentation
5) I prophesied nothing. You seem to have no idea what prophecy is and is not.
6) You have no way of knowing what I perceive

So in summary, you are a straight up LIAR.

You want scripture so bad, where here is one that finally fits:

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
Exodus 20:16

You fail to provide scripture in reference to the original post, AGAIN. Truly, I tell you that you cannot provide valid, properly contextual, legitimate scriptural support for free will for Adam.

You fail to recognize that your writings convey meaning. Since I presented your errors conveyed in your writings, then there is no bearing of false witness on my part; however, since that which I wrote is supported by evidence within your writings, then you are in violation of "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" (Exodus 20:16) when you wrote "liar" about me.

Let's enumerate your errors that you committed in this thread.

1) In your post #16, you assert that the recorded words in Genesis 2:17 are not the only command carrying a punishment being the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That is you asserting falsehood.

2) Since you seem to confuse your words with the Word of God (your post #14), I will clarify this for you. It is your "thought" and your "words" and your writings that I point out as containing error, yet you try to make it sound like your words are the Word of God by your writing of "You treat the word of God like it is a competitive sport", well, that's self explanatory, but I'll explain anyway, that is you claiming that your words are the Word of God. That's a very auspicious claim by someone who has not cited nor quoted the Word of God a single time in this thread except the wrongly applied Exodus 20:16 at a whopping twenty posts into this thread.

3) YHWH tests the righteous and the wicked (Psalm 11:5); in contrast, you claim to be the arbiter with your test of a single word reply (identified in your post #10) that appears simply as a response, not a "test" per your "thought" indication in your post #10, not even a cloaked test; nonetheless, your post #3 of "incorrect" (the so-called "test" of yours) was absent of scripture, and your post #3 is demonstrably wrong by the original post to this thread. By the way, did you notice that my post #4 was a pointedly terse response to your terse response because your single word response appeared to me that you wanted to keep things terse, but you failed to reply with scripture in response to when I wrote "Your lack of scirpture citation demonstrates vacancy in your response" - I was referring to your one word response! Notice that the next paragraph of the post was "Please read this point 2.2. from the original post", and you still failed to come back with scripture.

4) You repeatedly wrote that discussing scripture is worthless, including your words that it would be "a waste of time" in your post #10. Your posts have been replete with your inability to present scripture. Truly, I tell you that I know that you cannot present any in-context scripture as support for free-will.

5) You prophesied about the future when you wrote in definitive terms in the future tense "will" with your writing of "I don't have to waste my time writing a long response to someone who will pay no attention to it" in your post #10, so your asserted definitive claim using future tense is prophecy, and your prophecy was proved false by my reply to your very post #10. Now you complain that your prophesy was exposed as false.

6) Let us recall your "thought" in your post #6 and #10 and #18 asserting the original post to this thread as "completely incorrect", and your posts in this thread lack scriptural and linguistic support for your assertion, so your posts are merely based upon your "thought".

Your "thought" about the original post in this thread is intimitaly tied to your accusation of "incorrect" and more pointedly "completely incorrect" which is very telling about whether you perceive Truth (John 14:6).

Let's revisit the fact check that distinguishes truth from error. Here is the truth check:

The post to which you replied contains "SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Since this reference to Genesis 2:17 is indisputably true, then your accusation of "completely incorrect" is proven incorrect.

Rich in the Word of God, the original post to this thread remains true and correct.

topher694 · May 5, 2020

Kermos said:
You fail to provide scripture in reference to the original post, AGAIN. Truly, I tell you that you cannot provide valid, properly contextual, legitimate scriptural support for free will for Adam.

You fail to recognize that your writings convey meaning. Since I presented your errors conveyed in your writings, then there is no bearing of false witness on my part; however, since that which I wrote is supported by evidence within your writings, then you are in violation of "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" (Exodus 20:16) when you wrote "liar" about me.

Let's enumerate your errors that you committed in this thread.

1) In your post #16, you assert that the recorded words in Genesis 2:17 are not the only command carrying a punishment being the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That is you asserting falsehood.

2) Since you seem to confuse your words with the Word of God (your post #14), I will clarify this for you. It is your "thought" and your "words" and your writings that I point out as containing error, yet you try to make it sound like your words are the Word of God by your writing of "You treat the word of God like it is a competitive sport", well, that's self explanatory, but I'll explain anyway, that is you claiming that your words are the Word of God. That's a very auspicious claim by someone who has not cited nor quoted the Word of God a single time in this thread except the wrongly applied Exodus 20:16 at a whopping twenty posts into this thread.

3) YHWH tests the righteous and the wicked (Psalm 11:5); in contrast, you claim to be the arbiter with your test of a single word reply (identified in your post #10) that appears simply as a response, not a "test" per your "thought" indication in your post #10, not even a cloaked test; nonetheless, your post #3 of "incorrect" (the so-called "test" of yours) was absent of scripture, and your post #3 is demonstrably wrong by the original post to this thread. By the way, did you notice that my post #4 was a pointedly terse response to your terse response because your single word response appeared to me that you wanted to keep things terse, but you failed to reply with scripture in response to when I wrote "Your lack of scirpture citation demonstrates vacancy in your response" - I was referring to your one word response! Notice that the next paragraph of the post was "Please read this point 2.2. from the original post", and you still failed to come back with scripture.

4) You repeatedly wrote that discussing scripture is worthless, including your words that it would be "a waste of time" in your post #10. Your posts have been replete with your inability to present scripture. Truly, I tell you that I know that you cannot present any in-context scripture as support for free-will.

5) You prophesied about the future when you wrote in definitive terms in the future tense "will" with your writing of "I don't have to waste my time writing a long response to someone who will pay no attention to it" in your post #10, so your asserted definitive claim using future tense is prophecy, and your prophecy was proved false by my reply to your very post #10. Now you complain that your prophesy was exposed as false.

6) Let us recall your "thought" in your post #6 and #10 and #18 asserting the original post to this thread as "completely incorrect", and your posts in this thread lack scriptural and linguistic support for your assertion, so your posts are merely based upon your "thought".

Your "thought" about the original post in this thread is intimitaly tied to your accusation of "incorrect" and more pointedly "completely incorrect" which is very telling about whether you perceive Truth (John 14:6).

Let's revisit the fact check that distinguishes truth from error. Here is the truth check:

The post to which you replied contains "SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Since this reference to Genesis 2:17 is indisputably true, then your accusation of "completely incorrect" is proven incorrect.

Rich in the Word of God, the original post to this thread remains true and correct.

I don't appreciate you continually bearing false witness against me. The same extreme and incorrect liberties you with take with my words you have taken with the scriptures. Providing you further scriptures at this point would only provide you with further opportunity for error. Plus you have ignored and again violated the one I did provide. Perhaps it is time for you to admit your error and ask God to help you with some self examination.

St_Worm2 · May 5, 2020

Kermos said:
The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.
God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree YET a command does not convey ability (see also God's Commands Distinguised From Man's Ability)

Nor does it convey inability.

Kermos said:
...the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)
AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when) THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17
THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17
SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17

I remain uncertain of why you attempted to hide the fact from us that one of the principle translations of כִּי is "if" :scratch:

That said/moving on, could the statement in v17 (from God to Adam) be prophetic in nature? Yes, I suppose that it could be, but I do not believe that it was.

Kermos said:
AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17 SO there is no free will indicated for Adam AND the firm fact is established THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)

Yes, God "reigns in the affairs of man". He also "ordains whatsoever comes to pass" in this world. But none of that, neither His foreknowledge, nor His foreordination, nor His sovereignty over Creation .. e.g. Isaiah 46:9-10, infers that He ~CAUSES~ everything that happens, especially moral evil, as the very opposite is, in fact, the truth according to Scripture .. e.g. James 1:13-15 (not to mention that we humans are hardly in need of any help from Him to start or to continue in sin

).

God ordaining whatsoever comes to pass means that either,

1. He causes certain things to happen and/or
2. He allows certain things to happen (even if they are against His will) and/or
3. He stops certain things from happening.

As far as sin and disobedience are concerned, He neither tempts us nor causes us to sin. He, in fact, limits the scope/power of Satan's temptations of us such that we cannot be tempted beyond our ability to resist/bear up under it. He is also so concerned about our ~not~ being disobedient/not sinning that He provides us with a way of escape from each of our temptations so that we need not ever fall into sin .. e.g. 1 Corinthians 10:13, though we continue to do so anyway

This has become too long of a post, so I will stop here and continue with the next portion of your post in my next reply.

--David

St_Worm2 · May 6, 2020

Hello again Kermos, in reply to your OP I said:

St_Worm2 said:
If Adam had no choice other than to disobey God, on what basis was He able to hold him accountable?

Then you replied:

Kermos said:
The original post's point 2.3. addresses your inquiry. Nonetheless, here is more explanation. God is God, and God does as God pleases with the inhabitants of the earth (Daniel 4:35).

Do you believe that includes lying to us/going against His own word to us, and/or denying the promises that He made to us, if/whenever He so chooses :scratch:

Kermos said:
God commanded Adam not to do it. Adam did it. God is just, so the punishment for Adam followed.

When you say that, yes, you are correct, God is just, but that hardly encapsulates everything you had to say about this matter. Rather (according to what you said earlier in this thread) God didn't just give Adam a command to obey, He also CAUSED him to disobey it, and then He punished him for doing so ~even though Adam could not have done otherwise~.

If such a thing was actually true of God, God would be "evil", not "just" :preach:

--David

Kermos · May 6, 2020

topher694 said:
I don't appreciate you continually bearing false witness against me. The same extreme and incorrect liberties you with take with my words you have taken with the scriptures. Providing you further scriptures at this point would only provide you with further opportunity for error. Plus you have ignored and again violated the one I did provide. Perhaps it is time for you to admit your error and ask God to help you with some self examination.

Adam did not have free will imparted to according to scripture both textually and contextually.

Still, you fail to cite or quote scripture in an attempt to support your "thought".

Lord Jesus says that out of a person comes the treasure of said person's heart (Matthew 6:21, Matthew 12:34-37).

Your "thought" is the treasure of your heart, and you convey your "thought" in your postings to this thread.

I don't think you know just how deceitful the human heart is. It is written "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it" (Jeremiah 17:9). Deceit is error.

Let us we examine again your error prone writings

1) In your post #20, you wrongly accuse me of bearing false witness, and the points of this post bear out the fact of you bearing false witness in your post #20.

2) In your post #16, you assert that the recorded words in Genesis 2:17 are not the only command carrying a punishment being the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That is you asserting falsehood.

3) Since you seem to confuse your words with the Word of God (your post #14), I will clarify this for you. It is your "thought" and your "words" and your writings that I point out as containing error, yet you try to make it sound like your words are the Word of God by your writing of "You treat the word of God like it is a competitive sport", well, that's self explanatory, but I'll explain anyway, that is you claiming that your words are the Word of God. That's a very auspicious claim by someone who has not cited nor quoted the Word of God a single time in this thread except the wrongly applied Exodus 20:16 at a whopping twenty posts into this thread.

4) YHWH tests the righteous and the wicked (Psalm 11:5); in contrast, you claim to be the arbiter with your test of a single word reply (identified in your post #10) that appears simply as a response, not a "test" per your "thought" indication in your post #10, not even a cloaked test; nonetheless, your post #3 of "incorrect" (the so-called "test" of yours) was absent of scripture, and your post #3 is demonstrably wrong by the original post to this thread. By the way, did you notice that my post #4 was a pointedly terse response to your terse response because your single word response appeared to me that you wanted to keep things terse, but you failed to reply with scripture in response to when I wrote "Your lack of scirpture citation demonstrates vacancy in your response" - I was referring to your one word response! Notice that the next paragraph of the post was "Please read this point 2.2. from the original post", and you still failed to come back with scripture.

5) You repeatedly wrote that discussing scripture is worthless, including your words that it would be "a waste of time" in your post #10. Your posts have been replete with your inability to present scripture. Truly, I tell you that I know that you cannot present any in-context scripture as support for free-will.

6) You prophesied about the future when you wrote in definitive terms in the future tense "will" with your writing of "I don't have to waste my time writing a long response to someone who will pay no attention to it" in your post #10, so your asserted definitive claim using future tense is prophecy, and your prophecy was proved false by my reply to your very post #10. Now you complain that your prophesy was exposed as false.

7) Let us recall your "thought" in your post #6 and #10 and #18 asserting the original post to this thread as "completely incorrect", and your posts in this thread lack scriptural and linguistic support for your assertion, so your posts are merely based upon your "thought".

Your "thought" about the original post in this thread is intimitaly tied to your accusation of "incorrect" and more pointedly "completely incorrect" which is very telling about whether you perceive Truth (John 14:6).

Let's revisit the fact check that distinguishes truth from error. Here is the truth check:

The post to which you replied contains "SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Since this reference to Genesis 2:17 is indisputably true, then your accusation of "completely incorrect" is proven incorrect.

Rich in the Word of God, the original post to this thread remains true and correct.

Kermos · May 6, 2020

St_Worm2 said:
Nor does it convey inability.

Point well taken. So then, it can be said that a command conveys neither ability nor inablility.

I remain uncertain of why you attempted to hide the fact from us that one of the principle translations of ×Ö´Ö¼× is "if" That said/moving on, could the statement in v17 (from God to Adam) be prophetic in nature? Yes, I suppose that it could be, but I do not believe that it was.

If it seems that I get short and abrupt when I attempt at brevity, please do not take it as an attack, but, rather, please recognize that I am trying to avoid a dissertation. I prefer avoiding dissertations in these posts, yet necessity for clarity trumps brevity.

I, too, looked at the concordance for the Hebrew word ki, and for the NASB here are the counts for the three highest count translations to English:

* because: 409

* when: 241

* if: 169

Is that enough to settle that "when" occurrences outnumber "if" occurrences? I didn't think so, so I went further.

Now, on to a dissertation. After your post #2, I spent many hours over a couple of days producing a webpage. carefully examining every occurrence of the Hebrew word ki in the first six chapters of Genesis. Here is the fruit of that endeavor: The Meaning Of The Hebrew Word כִּ֗י(ki)/"for"/"when" in <a href="http://biblehub.com/genesis/2-17.htm" target="_new">Genesis 2:17</a> In Comparison With Other Portions of Scripture (not a ChristianForums.com page)

At this page, is every occurrence of ki in Genesis 1 - 6. Each row in the table contains (1) the verse reference, (2) the NASB translation, (3) the key to find ki's translation in the NASB, (4) the verse using "if" for "ki", and (5) the verse using "when" for "ki".

Below the table are results and findings.

I'll pull just one finding here for this post. Genesis 5:24 translates "ki" to "for" in "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him".

Watch what happens when "if" is used: "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, if God took him" - rather indecisive sounding.

Behold what happens when "when" is used: "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, when God took him" - God took Enoch, and that is decisive.

Yes, God "reigns in the affairs of man". He also "ordains whatsoever comes to pass" in this world. But none of that, neither His foreknowledge, nor His foreordination, nor His sovereignty over Creation .. e.g. Isaiah 46:9-10, infers that He ~CAUSES~ everything that happens, especially moral evil, as the very opposite is, in fact, the truth according to Scripture .. e.g. James 1:13-15 (not to mention that we humans are hardly in need of any help from Him to start or to continue in sin ).

God ordaining whatsoever comes to pass means that either,

1. He causes certain things to happen and/or
2. He allows certain things to happen (even if they are against His will) and/or
3. He stops certain things from happening.

As far as sin and disobedience are concerned, He neither tempts us nor causes us to sin. He, in fact, limits the scope/power of Satan's temptations of us such that we cannot be tempted beyond our ability to resist/bear up under it. He is also so concerned about our ~not~ being disobedient/not sinning that He provides us with a way of escape from each of our temptations so that we need not ever fall into sin .. e.g. 1 Corinthians 10:13, though we continue to do so anyway

This has become too long of a post, so I will stop here and continue with the next portion of your post in my next reply.

--David

The Word of God says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7)

It is clear from scripture that man's first state is carnal - enmity with God, and it takes a work of God for a man's state to be changed to spiritual (Romans 8:8 and surrounding verses, 1 Corinthians 2:14).

The serpent made claims to Eve, so we find concord with James 1:13-15.

You wrote "He neither tempts us nor causes us to sin", so you have James 1:13-15 supporting the "tempts", but where is the citation for "nor causes"?

In scripture we find God hardening Pharoah's heart (Exodus 7:3), and Pharoah lied to Moses about letting the Israelites go on more than one occasion. Another instance is God's Hand about Pilate, Herod, the Israelites, and Gentiles being against the Word of God mentioned in Acts 4:24-30.

1 Corinthians 10:13 is for believers in Jesus Christ, not unbelievers in the carnal nature.

God knows all things.

God knows all things (John 16:30, John 21:17, Psalm 139:1-18, Psalm 94:11, Hebrews 4:13, Matthew 6:8)
* This means that nothing less than what God knows "will happen" will come to pass
* Simultaneously, this also means that nothing more than what God knows "will happen." will come to pass

This includes the meaning that man is subject to God's knowing all things

Contraints on happenings include:
* That which God knows "will happen" cannot be avoided
* That which God knows "will happen" absolutely must come to pass

God's foreknowledge is not dependent on man.

With the children of God, God's foreknowledge is an intimate affair extended by God to man (Romans 8:29-30, 1 Peter 1:1-2)

The word "ki"/"for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17 is an indication of God knowing beforehand (foreknowledge) of Adam's failure to obey the command in this command clause of "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat" (Genesis 2:17), and this command is immediately followed by the "ki"/"for"/"when" in the punishment indication clause of "for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die" (Genesis 2:17).

God knew beforehand that Adam would eat of the tree because God used the word "ki"/"for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17.

Adam's eating from the tree was inescapable.

There is more to the origianl post than point number 1 which demonstrates the absence of free will.

Kermos · May 6, 2020

St_Worm2 said:
Hello again Kermos, in reply to your OP I said:

Then you replied:

Do you believe that includes lying to us/going against His own word to us, and/or denying the promises that He made to us, if/whenever He so chooses

I think your question changes gear away from the point made in the original post's point 2.3.

But, in answer:

God does not lie to the children of God.

God does not contradict God's own Word.

God fulfills God's promises to the children of God.

God does not change (Malachi 3:6).

These things I believe.

When you say that, yes, you are correct, God is just, but that hardly encapsulates everything you had to say about this matter. Rather (according to what you said earlier in this thread) God didn't just give Adam a command to obey, He also CAUSED him to disobey it, and then He punished him for doing so ~even though Adam could not have done otherwise~.

If such a thing was actually true of God, God would be "evil", not "just"

--David

Get ready St_Worm2, this may sound harsh, but it's really cutting to the chase for brevity.

It appears the crux of the above ('When..."just"') is you trying to distinguish between "evil" and "just".

I would have to say that is you imposing your thoughts upon God's thoughts.

It is written "My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares YHWH. "For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

It is written "there was an evil spirit from YHWH on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, and David was playing [the harp] with [his] hand. Saul tried to pin David to the wall with the spear" (1 Samuel 19:9-10).

There is an answer to the question "what is just", and the answer is God is just in all God's ways (Deuteronomy 32:4).

By the way, there is NO sin in God (1 John 3:5).

No evil dwells in God (Psalm 5:4).

Back to the original post, there is no indication of free will for Adam regarding eating of the tree, rather, there is only indication of action and punishment.

topher694 · May 6, 2020

Kermos said:
Adam did not have free will imparted to according to scripture both textually and contextually.

Still, you fail to cite or quote scripture in an attempt to support your "thought".

Lord Jesus says that out of a person comes the treasure of said person's heart (Matthew 6:21, Matthew 12:34-37).

Your "thought" is the treasure of your heart, and you convey your "thought" in your postings to this thread.

I don't think you know just how deceitful the human heart is. It is written "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it" (Jeremiah 17:9). Deceit is error.

Let us we examine again your error prone writings

1) In your post #20, you wrongly accuse me of bearing false witness, and the points of this post bear out the fact of you bearing false witness in your post #20.

2) In your post #16, you assert that the recorded words in Genesis 2:17 are not the only command carrying a punishment being the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That is you asserting falsehood.

3) Since you seem to confuse your words with the Word of God (your post #14), I will clarify this for you. It is your "thought" and your "words" and your writings that I point out as containing error, yet you try to make it sound like your words are the Word of God by your writing of "You treat the word of God like it is a competitive sport", well, that's self explanatory, but I'll explain anyway, that is you claiming that your words are the Word of God. That's a very auspicious claim by someone who has not cited nor quoted the Word of God a single time in this thread except the wrongly applied Exodus 20:16 at a whopping twenty posts into this thread.

4) YHWH tests the righteous and the wicked (Psalm 11:5); in contrast, you claim to be the arbiter with your test of a single word reply (identified in your post #10) that appears simply as a response, not a "test" per your "thought" indication in your post #10, not even a cloaked test; nonetheless, your post #3 of "incorrect" (the so-called "test" of yours) was absent of scripture, and your post #3 is demonstrably wrong by the original post to this thread. By the way, did you notice that my post #4 was a pointedly terse response to your terse response because your single word response appeared to me that you wanted to keep things terse, but you failed to reply with scripture in response to when I wrote "Your lack of scirpture citation demonstrates vacancy in your response" - I was referring to your one word response! Notice that the next paragraph of the post was "Please read this point 2.2. from the original post", and you still failed to come back with scripture.

5) You repeatedly wrote that discussing scripture is worthless, including your words that it would be "a waste of time" in your post #10. Your posts have been replete with your inability to present scripture. Truly, I tell you that I know that you cannot present any in-context scripture as support for free-will.

6) You prophesied about the future when you wrote in definitive terms in the future tense "will" with your writing of "I don't have to waste my time writing a long response to someone who will pay no attention to it" in your post #10, so your asserted definitive claim using future tense is prophecy, and your prophecy was proved false by my reply to your very post #10. Now you complain that your prophesy was exposed as false.

7) Let us recall your "thought" in your post #6 and #10 and #18 asserting the original post to this thread as "completely incorrect", and your posts in this thread lack scriptural and linguistic support for your assertion, so your posts are merely based upon your "thought".

Your "thought" about the original post in this thread is intimitaly tied to your accusation of "incorrect" and more pointedly "completely incorrect" which is very telling about whether you perceive Truth (John 14:6).

Let's revisit the fact check that distinguishes truth from error. Here is the truth check:

The post to which you replied contains "SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Since this reference to Genesis 2:17 is indisputably true, then your accusation of "completely incorrect" is proven incorrect.

Rich in the Word of God, the original post to this thread remains true and correct.

You really should stop lying. It's making you look bad. If you'd like some help with inner healing and deliverance, I'd be happy to point you to some resources that could be of assistance.

Kermos · May 7, 2020

topher694 said:
You really should stop lying. It's making you look bad. If you'd like some help with inner healing and deliverance, I'd be happy to point you to some resources that could be of assistance.

You post is vacant about scripture regarding the original post of Adam and free will, again.

Please read this point 2.2. from the original post:

Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world

SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)

AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)

THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)

SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind

SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden

THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will

Nonetheless, this fits in with the entirety of the original post.

There is no greater help than my God and Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ (John 20:28, 2 Peter 1:1), the Author and Perfecter of the faith (2 Corinthians 4:7-15) given to we saints (John 6:29, Jude 1:3), and I am eternally thankful to my Lord Who saves and sanctifies me, and I want no other.

topher694 · May 7, 2020

Kermos said:
You post is vacant about scripture regarding the original post of Adam and free will, again.

Please read this point 2.2. from the original post:

Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world

SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)

AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)

THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)

SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind

SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden

THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will

Nonetheless, this fits in with the entirety of the original post.

There is no greater help than my God and Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ (John 20:28, 2 Peter 1:1), the Author and Perfecter of the faith (2 Corinthians 4:7-15) given to we saints (John 6:29, Jude 1:3), and I am eternally thankful to my Lord Who saves and sanctifies me, and I want no other.

Avoiding your issues won't make them go away. It's not a sign of weakness to ask for help.

Kermos · May 7, 2020

topher694 said:
Avoiding your issues won't make them go away. It's not a sign of weakness to ask for help.

You failed to cite the Word of God a single time in this thread respecting to the original post, so this is a clear indication of your position about the Word of God.

You attack the messenger, but that is just your "thought" in deception. Please take note of the newly inserted point number 1 in the below. Your arrogance is off the meter.

Let's enumerate your writings that prove your errors that you committed in this thread.

1) In your post #28, you have the audacity to claim there are some greater "resources" of help than Almighty God. In your post #30 you confirm your error.

2) In your post #20, you wrongly accuse me of bearing false witness, and the points of this post bear out the fact of you bearing false witness in your post #20.

3) In your post #16, you assert that the recorded words in Genesis 2:17 are not the only command carrying a punishment being the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That is you asserting falsehood.

4) Since you seem to confuse your words with the Word of God (your post #14), I will clarify this for you. It is your "thought" and your "words" and your writings that I point out as containing error, yet you try to make it sound like your words are the Word of God by your writing of "You treat the word of God like it is a competitive sport", well, that's self explanatory, but I'll explain anyway, that is you claiming that your words are the Word of God. That's a very auspicious claim by someone who has not cited nor quoted the Word of God a single time in this thread except the wrongly applied Exodus 20:16 at a whopping twenty posts into this thread.

5) YHWH tests the righteous and the wicked (Psalm 11:5); in contrast, you claim to be the arbiter with your test of a single word reply (identified in your post #10) that appears simply as a response, not a "test" per your "thought" indication in your post #10, not even a cloaked test; nonetheless, your post #3 of "incorrect" (the so-called "test" of yours) was absent of scripture, and your post #3 is demonstrably wrong by the original post to this thread. By the way, did you notice that my post #4 was a pointedly terse response to your terse response because your single word response appeared to me that you wanted to keep things terse, but you failed to reply with scripture in response to when I wrote "Your lack of scirpture citation demonstrates vacancy in your response" - I was referring to your one word response! Notice that the next paragraph of the post was "Please read this point 2.2. from the original post", and you still failed to come back with scripture.

6) You repeatedly wrote that discussing scripture is worthless, including your words that it would be "a waste of time" in your post #10. Your posts have been replete with your inability to present scripture. Truly, I tell you that I know that you cannot present any in-context scripture as support for free-will.

7) You prophesied about the future when you wrote in definitive terms in the future tense "will" with your writing of "I don't have to waste my time writing a long response to someone who will pay no attention to it" in your post #10, so your asserted definitive claim using future tense is prophecy, and your prophecy was proved false by my reply to your very post #10. Now you complain that your prophesy was exposed as false.

8) Let us recall your "thought" in your post #6 and #10 and #18 asserting the original post to this thread as "completely incorrect", and your posts in this thread lack scriptural and linguistic support for your assertion, so your posts are merely based upon your "thought".

Your "thought" about the original post in this thread is intimitaly tied to your accusation of "incorrect" and more pointedly "completely incorrect" which is very telling about whether you perceive Truth (John 14:6).

Let's revisit the fact check that distinguishes truth from error. Here is the truth check:

The post to which you replied contains "SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Since this reference to Genesis 2:17 is indisputably true, then your accusation of "completely incorrect" is proven incorrect.

Rich in the Word of God, the original post to this thread remains true and correct.

topher694 · May 7, 2020

Kermos said:
You failed to cite the Word of God a single time in this thread respecting to the original post, so this is a clear indication of your position about the Word of God.

You attack the messenger, but that is just your "thought" in deception. Please take note of the newly inserted point number 1 in the below. Your arrogance is off the meter.

Let's enumerate your writings that prove your errors that you committed in this thread.

1) In your post #28, you have the audacity to claim there are some greater "resources" of help than Almighty God.

2) In your post #20, you wrongly accuse me of bearing false witness, and the points of this post bear out the fact of you bearing false witness in your post #20.

3) In your post #16, you assert that the recorded words in Genesis 2:17 are not the only command carrying a punishment being the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That is you asserting falsehood.

4) Since you seem to confuse your words with the Word of God (your post #14), I will clarify this for you. It is your "thought" and your "words" and your writings that I point out as containing error, yet you try to make it sound like your words are the Word of God by your writing of "You treat the word of God like it is a competitive sport", well, that's self explanatory, but I'll explain anyway, that is you claiming that your words are the Word of God. That's a very auspicious claim by someone who has not cited nor quoted the Word of God a single time in this thread except the wrongly applied Exodus 20:16 at a whopping twenty posts into this thread.

5) YHWH tests the righteous and the wicked (Psalm 11:5); in contrast, you claim to be the arbiter with your test of a single word reply (identified in your post #10) that appears simply as a response, not a "test" per your "thought" indication in your post #10, not even a cloaked test; nonetheless, your post #3 of "incorrect" (the so-called "test" of yours) was absent of scripture, and your post #3 is demonstrably wrong by the original post to this thread. By the way, did you notice that my post #4 was a pointedly terse response to your terse response because your single word response appeared to me that you wanted to keep things terse, but you failed to reply with scripture in response to when I wrote "Your lack of scirpture citation demonstrates vacancy in your response" - I was referring to your one word response! Notice that the next paragraph of the post was "Please read this point 2.2. from the original post", and you still failed to come back with scripture.

6) You repeatedly wrote that discussing scripture is worthless, including your words that it would be "a waste of time" in your post #10. Your posts have been replete with your inability to present scripture. Truly, I tell you that I know that you cannot present any in-context scripture as support for free-will.

7) You prophesied about the future when you wrote in definitive terms in the future tense "will" with your writing of "I don't have to waste my time writing a long response to someone who will pay no attention to it" in your post #10, so your asserted definitive claim using future tense is prophecy, and your prophecy was proved false by my reply to your very post #10. Now you complain that your prophesy was exposed as false.

8) Let us recall your "thought" in your post #6 and #10 and #18 asserting the original post to this thread as "completely incorrect", and your posts in this thread lack scriptural and linguistic support for your assertion, so your posts are merely based upon your "thought".

Your "thought" about the original post in this thread is intimitaly tied to your accusation of "incorrect" and more pointedly "completely incorrect" which is very telling about whether you perceive Truth (John 14:6).

Let's revisit the fact check that distinguishes truth from error. Here is the truth check:

The post to which you replied contains "SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Since this reference to Genesis 2:17 is indisputably true, then your accusation of "completely incorrect" is proven incorrect.

Rich in the Word of God, the original post to this thread remains true and correct.

You are still lying about me. That's not very nice.

Kermos · May 7, 2020

topher694 said:
You are still lying about me. That's not very nice.

Again and agains and again you fail to cite or quote the Word of God in this thread respecting to the original post, and this is not a lie, so this is a clear indication of your position about the Word of God.

It is not nice of you to come back here again and again to attack the messenger as you have done.

Your audacious claim of some greater "resources" of help than Almighty God in your post #28 your position about the Word of God. As further proof, I replied to your post #28 explaining that Lord Jesus is my help, but you replied again in your post #30 confirming and compounding your error since your post #30 replies to my post identifying Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of my faith (2 Corinthians 4:7-15) as my help!

Now, let us recall your "thought" in your post #6 and #10 and #18 asserting the original post to this thread as "completely incorrect", and your posts in this thread lack scriptural and linguistic support for your assertion, so your posts are merely based upon your "thought".

Your "thought" about the original post in this thread is intimitaly tied to your accusation of "incorrect" and more pointedly "completely incorrect" which is very telling about whether you perceive Truth (John 14:6).

Let's revisit the fact check that distinguishes truth from error. Here is the truth check:

The post to which you replied contains "SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Since this reference to Genesis 2:17 is indisputably true, then your accusation of "completely incorrect" is proven incorrect.

Rich in the Word of God, the original post to this thread remains true and correct.

topher694 · May 7, 2020

Kermos said:
Again and agains and again you fail to cite or quote the Word of God in this thread respecting to the original post, and this is not a lie, so this is a clear indication of your position about the Word of God.

It is not nice of you to come back here again and again to attack the messenger as you have done.

Your audacious claim of some greater "resources" of help than Almighty God in your post #28 your position about the Word of God. As further proof, I replied to your post #28 explaining that Lord Jesus is my help, but you replied again in your post #30 confirming and compounding your error since your post #30 replies to my post identifying Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of my faith (2 Corinthians 4:7-15) as my help!

Now, let us recall your "thought" in your post #6 and #10 and #18 asserting the original post to this thread as "completely incorrect", and your posts in this thread lack scriptural and linguistic support for your assertion, so your posts are merely based upon your "thought".

Your "thought" about the original post in this thread is intimitaly tied to your accusation of "incorrect" and more pointedly "completely incorrect" which is very telling about whether you perceive Truth (John 14:6).

Let's revisit the fact check that distinguishes truth from error. Here is the truth check:

The post to which you replied contains "SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Since this reference to Genesis 2:17 is indisputably true, then your accusation of "completely incorrect" is proven incorrect.

Rich in the Word of God, the original post to this thread remains true and correct.

You are lying about me. Do you deny it? You have attributed things to me I never said and worse, never thought. I have made that very clear, yet you continue to push those false claims. At this point that makes it a willful lie. Tell me, why should anyone take seriously someone's interpretation of scripture who is a unrepentant liar? Your initial post is completely tainted and should be ignored in it's entirety until such time as you repent and get some help.

Kermos · May 7, 2020

topher694 said:
You are lying about me. Do you deny it? You have attributed things to me I never said and worse, never thought. I have made that very clear, yet you continue to push those false claims. At this point that makes it a willful lie. Tell me, why should anyone take seriously someone's interpretation of scripture who is a unrepentant liar? Your initial post is completely tainted and should be ignored in it's entirety until such time as you repent and get some help.

Again, you failed to cite the Word of God a single time in this thread respecting to the original post, so this is a clear indication of your position about the Word of God. Your empty "thought" is proved out by your posts.

Do not ask questions about your errors, follow the links in the enumeration to see conclusive evidence presented in the enumeration of your error.

You attack the messenger by calling me a liar again and again, yet the enumerated list clearly exposes your "thought" for the deception it is.

You failed to cite the Word of God a single time in this thread respecting to the original post, so this is a clear indication of your position about the Word of God.

Let's enumerate your writings that prove your errors that you committed in this thread.

1) In your post #28, you have the audacity to claim there are some greater "resources" of help than Almighty God. I replied to your post #28 explaining that Lord Jesus is my help, but you replied again in your post #30 confirming and compounding your error since your post #30 replies to my post identifying Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of my faith (2 Corinthians 4:7-15) as my help!

2) In your post #20, you wrongly accuse me of bearing false witness, and the points of this post bear out the fact of you bearing false witness in your post #20.

3) In your post #16, you assert that the recorded words in Genesis 2:17 are not the only command carrying a punishment being the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That is you asserting falsehood.

4) Since you seem to confuse your words with the Word of God (your post #14), I will clarify this for you. It is your "thought" and your "words" and your writings that I point out as containing error, yet you try to make it sound like your words are the Word of God by your writing of "You treat the word of God like it is a competitive sport", well, that's self explanatory, but I'll explain anyway, that is you claiming that your words are the Word of God. That's a very auspicious claim by someone who has not cited nor quoted the Word of God a single time in this thread except the wrongly applied Exodus 20:16 at a whopping twenty posts into this thread.

5) YHWH tests the righteous and the wicked (Psalm 11:5); in contrast, you claim to be the arbiter with your test of a single word reply (identified in your post #10) that appears simply as a response, not a "test" per your "thought" indication in your post #10, not even a cloaked test; nonetheless, your post #3 of "incorrect" (the so-called "test" of yours) was absent of scripture, and your post #3 is demonstrably wrong by the original post to this thread. By the way, did you notice that my post #4 was a pointedly terse response to your terse response because your single word response appeared to me that you wanted to keep things terse, but you failed to reply with scripture in response to when I wrote "Your lack of scirpture citation demonstrates vacancy in your response" - I was referring to your one word response! Notice that the next paragraph of the post was "Please read this point 2.2. from the original post", and you still failed to come back with scripture.

6) You repeatedly wrote that discussing scripture is worthless, including your words that it would be "a waste of time" in your post #10. Your posts have been replete with your inability to present scripture. Truly, I tell you that I know that you cannot present any in-context scripture as support for free-will.

7) You prophesied about the future when you wrote in definitive terms in the future tense "will" with your writing of "I don't have to waste my time writing a long response to someone who will pay no attention to it" in your post #10, so your asserted definitive claim using future tense is prophecy, and your prophecy was proved false by my reply to your very post #10. Now you complain that your prophesy was exposed as false.

8) Let us recall your "thought" in your post #6 and #10 and #18 asserting the original post to this thread as "completely incorrect", and your posts in this thread lack scriptural and linguistic support for your assertion, so your posts are merely based upon your "thought".

Your "thought" about the original post in this thread is intimitaly tied to your accusation of "incorrect" and more pointedly "completely incorrect" which is very telling about whether you perceive Truth (John 14:6).

Let's revisit the fact check that distinguishes truth from error. Here is the truth check:

The post to which you replied contains "SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Since this reference to Genesis 2:17 is indisputably true, then your accusation of "completely incorrect" is proven incorrect.

Rich in the Word of God, the original post to this thread remains true and correct.

topher694 · May 7, 2020

Kermos said:
Again, you failed to cite the Word of God a single time in this thread respecting to the original post, so this is a clear indication of your position about the Word of God. Your empty "thought" is proved out by your posts.

Do not ask questions about your errors, follow the links in the enumeration to see conclusive evidence presented in the enumeration of your error.

You attack the messenger by calling me a liar again and again, yet the enumerated list clearly exposes your "thought" for the deception it is.

You failed to cite the Word of God a single time in this thread respecting to the original post, so this is a clear indication of your position about the Word of God.

Let's enumerate your writings that prove your errors that you committed in this thread.

1) In your post #28, you have the audacity to claim there are some greater "resources" of help than Almighty God. I replied to your post #28 explaining that Lord Jesus is my help, but you replied again in your post #30 confirming and compounding your error since your post #30 replies to my post identifying Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of my faith (2 Corinthians 4:7-15) as my help!

2) In your post #20, you wrongly accuse me of bearing false witness, and the points of this post bear out the fact of you bearing false witness in your post #20.

3) In your post #16, you assert that the recorded words in Genesis 2:17 are not the only command carrying a punishment being the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That is you asserting falsehood.

4) Since you seem to confuse your words with the Word of God (your post #14), I will clarify this for you. It is your "thought" and your "words" and your writings that I point out as containing error, yet you try to make it sound like your words are the Word of God by your writing of "You treat the word of God like it is a competitive sport", well, that's self explanatory, but I'll explain anyway, that is you claiming that your words are the Word of God. That's a very auspicious claim by someone who has not cited nor quoted the Word of God a single time in this thread except the wrongly applied Exodus 20:16 at a whopping twenty posts into this thread.

5) YHWH tests the righteous and the wicked (Psalm 11:5); in contrast, you claim to be the arbiter with your test of a single word reply (identified in your post #10) that appears simply as a response, not a "test" per your "thought" indication in your post #10, not even a cloaked test; nonetheless, your post #3 of "incorrect" (the so-called "test" of yours) was absent of scripture, and your post #3 is demonstrably wrong by the original post to this thread. By the way, did you notice that my post #4 was a pointedly terse response to your terse response because your single word response appeared to me that you wanted to keep things terse, but you failed to reply with scripture in response to when I wrote "Your lack of scirpture citation demonstrates vacancy in your response" - I was referring to your one word response! Notice that the next paragraph of the post was "Please read this point 2.2. from the original post", and you still failed to come back with scripture.

6) You repeatedly wrote that discussing scripture is worthless, including your words that it would be "a waste of time" in your post #10. Your posts have been replete with your inability to present scripture. Truly, I tell you that I know that you cannot present any in-context scripture as support for free-will.

7) You prophesied about the future when you wrote in definitive terms in the future tense "will" with your writing of "I don't have to waste my time writing a long response to someone who will pay no attention to it" in your post #10, so your asserted definitive claim using future tense is prophecy, and your prophecy was proved false by my reply to your very post #10. Now you complain that your prophesy was exposed as false.

8) Let us recall your "thought" in your post #6 and #10 and #18 asserting the original post to this thread as "completely incorrect", and your posts in this thread lack scriptural and linguistic support for your assertion, so your posts are merely based upon your "thought".

Your "thought" about the original post in this thread is intimitaly tied to your accusation of "incorrect" and more pointedly "completely incorrect" which is very telling about whether you perceive Truth (John 14:6).

Let's revisit the fact check that distinguishes truth from error. Here is the truth check:

The post to which you replied contains "SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Since this reference to Genesis 2:17 is indisputably true, then your accusation of "completely incorrect" is proven incorrect.

Rich in the Word of God, the original post to this thread remains true and correct.

The OP is incorrect and tainted by unrepentant dishonesty... all should ignore it.

St. Helens · May 7, 2020

ADMIN HAT ON
Thread locked
Multiple flaming and goading violations
ADMIN HAT OFF

Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Go Turtle!

Simul Justus et Peccator

Simul Justus et Peccator

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Go Turtle!

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Go Turtle!

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Go Turtle!

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Go Turtle!

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Go Turtle!

I stand with Israel

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